Sicarius thomisoides (Six Eyed Sand Spider) Venom?

[Harmonicon]

Hey guys, I couldn't find too much information about Sicarius thomisoides venom, some people say the whole genus Sicarius is very venomous while others say it is only one particular species? Does anyone have information on this species venom... I am considering keeping one. Thanks!

 

[Edan bandoot]

You'll want to be in a Hospital or you'll be dead, one or the other, their venom has necrotic effect.

Depends how healthy you are, venom dose etc.

I read that the new world sp of sicarius are a little less potent, but still necrotic

They're very skittish and unlikely to bite though.

Read this: https://arachnoboards.com/threads/just-how-venomous-are-sicarius.127192/

 

[basin79]

My understanding is that it's Hexophthalma hahni (ex Sicarius hahni) that has the real potent venom. Sicarius thomisoides has similar in regardards to its make up though. Of course there are more but it's those 2 that are usually kept with S. thomisoides being the most common. They aren't a spider you'd want to take a bite from although you'd be hard pushed to get them too.

They're EXTREMELY reserved spiders though. You won't ever get a defensive posture off one. If disturbed they either keep completely still or usually run. They are very fast but can't climb smooth surfaces.

Absolutely adore my 3. Easy to keep and brilliant to watch at feeding time.

 

[schmiggle]

IIRC, there's not that much information about actual bite symptoms because there are very few bite reports, which means a lot of the toxicity stuff is guesswork. They do have a remarkably low ld50 in mice, though.

It was completely irresponsible behavior, but for the sake of illustration--years ago, a member here put his Sicarius on his hand and pushed it around for like 2 hours for a photoshoot. The spider just sat there the whole time. Use a smooth sided container and tongs and your chances of a bite are really low.

 

[Ceymann]

Being closely related to Loxosceles sp. Id imagine a decent envenomation of any species of this genus would be a guaranteed bad time.
I imagine it would be similar in toxicity as Loxosceles, however due to its much larger size I imagine venom yield would be much greater, another thing is I can imagine their fangs are a bit longer, Loxosceles have incredibly small short fangs relative to their size and generally have a very hard time penetrating our skin, esp calloused areas like hands, and even if they do, it doesn't, in some cases in my opinion doesn't injected deep enough to get picked up by the fine capillaries to cause major systematic issues.

I wouldn't want to be the one who finds out about it/ get tagged.

 

[Edan bandoot]

Being closely related to Loxosceles sp. Id imagine a decent envenomation of any species of this genus would be a guaranteed bad time.
I imagine it would be similar in toxicity as Loxosceles, however due to its much larger size I imagine venom yield would be much greater, another thing is I can imagine their fangs are a bit longer, Loxosceles have incredibly small short fangs relative to their size and generally have a very hard time penetrating our skin, esp calloused areas like hands, and even if they do, it doesn't, in some cases in my opinion doesn't injected deep enough to get picked up by the fine capillaries to cause major systematic issues.

I wouldn't want to be the one who finds out about it/ get tagged.

their venom is both more potent and delivered in higher dose.

 

[Ceymann]

their venom is both more potent and delivered in higher dose.

Granted I haven't done much research regarding sicarus sp, so my post was just speculation, to which I mentioned the big factor would be yield of venom that sicarus could deliver vs Loxosceles
do you have a good peer reviewed source on the subject?
Is every species in the genus more potent than say, loxosceles intermedia? Its at 0.48 mg/kg?

 

[Edan bandoot]

Granted I haven't done much research regarding sicarus sp, so my post was just speculation, to which I mentioned the big factor would be yield of venom that sicarus could deliver vs Loxosceles
do you have a good peer reviewed source on the subject?
Is every species in the genus more potent than say, loxosceles intermedia? Its at 0.48 mg/kg?

this article was the basis for the statement

Venom of the Brazilian Spider Sicarius ornatus (Araneae, Sicariidae) Contains Active Sphingomyelinase D: Potential for Toxicity after Envenomation - PMC

The spider family Sicariidae includes two genera, Sicarius and Loxosceles. Bites by Sicarius are uncommon in humans and, in Brazil, a single report is known of a 17-year old man bitten by a Sicarius species that developed a necrotic lesion similar ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

do your own research, dont expect me to answer all your questions.

 

[Ceymann]

this article was the basis for the statement

Venom of the Brazilian Spider Sicarius ornatus (Araneae, Sicariidae) Contains Active Sphingomyelinase D: Potential for Toxicity after Envenomation - PMC

The spider family Sicariidae includes two genera, Sicarius and Loxosceles. Bites by Sicarius are uncommon in humans and, in Brazil, a single report is known of a 17-year old man bitten by a Sicarius species that developed a necrotic lesion similar ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

do your own research, dont expect me to answer all your questions.

Ah, you sound a bit unpleasant, did I upset you?
you should maybe brush up on your own research because this peer reviewed study conflicts with your claims, esp regarding
Sphingomyelinases D activity in species mentioned, in that a Loxosceles species actually had a higher sphingomyelinases D activity than some of the other sicarius species in the study.




Again, your sources?

Ill show you mine if you show me yours?

Also, did you really analyze your source? because everything Im seeing shows that Loxosceles has higher sphingomyelinases activity than sicarius?

 

[Edan bandoot]

Ah, you sound a bit unpleasant, did I upset you?
you should maybe brush up on your own research because this peer reviewed study conflicts with your claims, esp regarding
Sphingomyelinases D activity in species mentioned, in that a Loxosceles species actually had a higher sphingomyelinases D activity than some of the other sicarius species in the study.

View attachment 392426


Again, your sources?

Ill show you mine if you show me yours?

Also, did you really analyze your source? because everything Im seeing shows that Loxosceles has higher sphingomyelinases activity than sicarius?

Delivered at a higher dosage. I don't know what point you're trying to make, nor do I care.

at 10 micrograms the male Sicarius venom proved most detrimental to human cell viability

 

[Ceymann]

their venom is both more potent and delivered in higher dose.

not sure who pissed in your cheerios this morning or evening..

But despite that I already mentioned venom yield being a major factor you seemed to be intent on critiquing my mear speculation.

Then it seems you used a source that actually conflicted with your above statement that you made rather "matter of factly "

this article was the basis for the statement

Venom of the Brazilian Spider Sicarius ornatus (Araneae, Sicariidae) Contains Active Sphingomyelinase D: Potential for Toxicity after Envenomation - PMC

The spider family Sicariidae includes two genera, Sicarius and Loxosceles. Bites by Sicarius are uncommon in humans and, in Brazil, a single report is known of a 17-year old man bitten by a Sicarius species that developed a necrotic lesion similar ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

do your own research, dont expect me to answer all your questions.

Ah, I am glad I did do my own research, esp considering the research source you yourself posted conflicts with your statements / claims.


Again, not sure why you are acting so pissy?

 

[Edan bandoot]

not sure who pissed in your cheerios this morning or evening..

But despite that I already mentioned venom yield being a major factor you seemed to be intent on critiquing my mear speculation.

Then it seems you used a source that actually conflicted with your above statement that you made rather "matter of factly "






Ah, I am glad I did do my own research, esp considering the research source you yourself posted conflicts with your statements / claims.


Again, not sure why you are acting so pissy?

the study i linked was about south american Sicarius. (the less potent ones) and the males were still equal to potency in the loxosceles.

old world sicarius https://www.researchgate.net/public...rs_that_differ_in_sphingomyelinase_D_activity

Not sure why you think i'm "pissy", not everyone is out to get you. Maybe take a break and come back to it.

 

[Ceymann]

the study i linked was about south american Sicarius. (the less potent ones) and the males were still equal to potency in the loxosceles.

old world sicarius https://www.researchgate.net/public...rs_that_differ_in_sphingomyelinase_D_activity

Not sure why you think i'm "pissy", not everyone is out to get you. Maybe take a break and come back to it.

That study only compared to L. laeta, you do realize there are african species of Loxosceles right? point is you made a false generalization claim, yet your own source you posted contridicted your claim regarding sphingomyelinases activity.

Maybe you should pay more attention when trying to google ninja your way through peer reviewed studies

 

[Edan bandoot]

That study only compared to L. laeta, you do realize there are african species of Loxosceles right? point is you made a false generalization claim, yet your own source you posted contridicted your claim regarding sphingomyelinases activity.

Maybe you should pay more attention when trying to google ninja your way through peer reviewed studies

as for as i can tell the claim isn't false, and is an accurate generalization.

i was unable to find venom potency of the african Loxosceles, although source 17 and 18 cite

De Oliveira, K.C.; Goncalves de Andrade, R.M.; Piazza, R.M.; Ferreira, J.M., Jr.; van den Berg, C.W.; Tambourgi, D.V. Variations in Loxosceles spider venom composition and toxicity contribute to the severity of envenomation. Toxicon 2005, 45, 421–429.

De Oliveira, C.K.; Goncalves de Andrade, R.M.; Giusti, A.L.; Dias da Silva, W.; Tambourgi, D.V. Sex-linked variation of Loxosceles intermedia spider venoms. Toxicon 1999, 37, 217–221.

Take a look at OP's original question, is this the hill you want to die on? If you really want to continue this i'd suggest doing so through pm.

 

[Ceymann]

Again, one species of Loxosceles having higher necrotizing enzyme activity than several sicarius species FROM THE SOURCE THAT YOU ORIGINALLY USED AS AN ARGUMENT THAT ALL SICARIUS SPECIES HAVE MORE POTENT VENOM THAN ALL LOXOSCELES SPECIES.

You made a generalized claim in a "matter of fact" way and yet posted a source that conflicted with said statement?

You said sicarius sp have more potent venom than loxosceles, so far you have been able to prove one species of sicarius has more potent venom than one species of Loxosceles, I have so shown one species of Loxosceles has more potent/ destructive venom potency than several species in the sicarius genus..


Eitherway, Dont make matter of fact generalized claims unless you have the sources to back them up, thats why I stated in my original post that it was my "speculation"

Not a matter of fact statement


Night night cupcake

 

[Edan bandoot]

Again, one species of Loxosceles having higher necrotizing enzyme activity than several sicarius species FROM THE SOURCE THAT YOU ORIGINALLY USED AS AN ARGUMENT THAT ALL SICARIUS SPECIES HAVE MORE POTENT VENOM THAN ALL LOXOSCELES SPECIES.

You made a generalized claim in a "matter of fact" way and yet posted a source that conflicted with said statement?

You said sicarius sp have more potent venom than loxosceles, so far you have been able to prove one species of sicarius has more potent venom than one species of Loxosceles, I have so shown one species of Loxosceles has more potent/ destructive venom potency than several species in the sicarius genus..


Eitherway, Dont make matter of fact generalized claims unless you have the sources to back them up, thats why I stated in my original post that it was my "speculation"

Not a matter of fact statement


Night night cupcake




View attachment 392439

1). everything i can find states that L.laeta is the most potent Loxoscles.

2). The first study i linked states that S.ornatus males cause equal reduction in cell viabilty at 10 micrograms

3). first study states sicarius have 6-5x more venom due to size.

4)second study i linked claims that old world sicarius are generally more potent than new world sicarius ( S.ornatus)

Never made the claim that all Sicarius are more potent than all Loxoscles. I made the generalization that the worst Sicarius are more potent and have more venom than the worst Loxoscles. I dont believe you read thoroughly over all the sources if you believe that source 1 is contradictory to this statement.

hope you sleep well and it doesn't keep you up at night.

to give points in your favour I would correct my generalization to "the venom of old world Sicarius is both more potent and delivered at a higher dosage"

does this effect the question OP was asking, imo, no. Very pedantic discussion.

 

[Ceymann]

1). everything i can find states that L.laeta is the most potent Loxoscles.

2). The first study i linked states that S.ornatus males cause equal reduction in cell viabilty at 10 micrograms

3). first study states sicarius have 6-5x more venom due to size.

4)second study i linked claims that old world sicarius are generally more potent than new world sicarius ( S.ornatus)

Never made the claim that all Sicarius are more potent than all Loxoscles. I made the generalization that the worst Sicarius are more potent and have more venom than the worst Loxoscles. I dont believe you read thoroughly over all the sources if you believe that source 1 is contradictory to this statement.

hope you sleep well and it doesn't keep you up at night.

to give points in your favour I would correct my generalization to "the venom of old world Sicarius is both more potent and delivered at a higher dosage"

does this effect the question OP was asking, imo, no. Very pedantic discussion.

Hey, you are the one who started this debate.
and L. laeta is NOT the most potent Loxosceles. It is L. intermedia like I stated before.

Identification and neutralization of biological activities in the venoms of Loxosceles spiders - PubMed

The biological activities of the venom of three species of spiders of the genus Loxosceles were studied (L. gaucho, L. laeta and L. intermedia). The dermonecrotic and lethal activities are shared by all three Loxosceles venoms. Only low levels of proteolytic, myotoxic and phospholipase A2...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

.

Let me ask you this, do you yourself have any experience keeping either sicarus or Loxosceles ? I have kept and bred Loxosceles before, I have also collected specimens for a study done at Kansas university.
You? or are you just using your google -fu to stir up debates?


Just like our last little "debate" on you thinking that if you are doing rehousings correctly its absolutely impossible to end up with a spider bolting up your arm, to which I asked if you had any experience with pokies, tappys or other quick aboreals....Obviously you dont/ refused to answer that.

If you back track this conversation, you made an over generalized incorrect statement "as a matter of fact" and were quite rude about it too.


See you around newb

 

[Edan bandoot]

Hey, you are the one who started this debate.
and L. laeta is NOT the most potent Loxosceles. It is L. intermedia like I stated before.

you never stated this, you just mentioned an LD50 value of L. intermedia

Let me ask you this, do you yourself have any experience keeping either sicarus or Loxosceles ? I have kept and bred Loxosceles before, I have also collected specimens for a study done at Kansas university.
You? or are you just using your google -fu to stir up debates?

irrelevant to venom?

Just like our last little "debate" on you thinking that if you are doing rehousings correctly its absolutely impossible to end up with a spider bolting up your arm, to which I asked if you had any experience with pokies, tappys or other quick aboreals....Obviously you dont/ refused to answer that.

Also irrelevant.
I own a 3" Tapinauchenius violaceus female, aswell as multiple psalmos and old world arboreals. If you ask nicely I can provide pictures of them. I stick to my previous statement (with proper patience and rehousing technique, none of your spiders should end up "on" you)

were quite rude about it too.

If the internet words hurt your feelings thats on you, I told you to do your own research and not to rely on me for information.

We both know that the worst Sicarious bite is worse than the worst Loxoscles bite, at this point you're arguing that my blanket statement (which was aimed at a new keeper) was "too general"

i just got back from the gym and my arms hurt, so i shall be sleeping

 

[The Snark]

I own a 3" Tapinauchenius violaceus female, aswell as multiple psalmos and old world arboreals.

And I own a 3.5 meter Isuzu truck that's deadlier than all sicarius and Loxosceles combined. Haven't you both beaten this sufficiently to death?

 

[Sarah23]

Jeez Louise, people argue so much about spiders, of all things. Isn't the general public rude enough to the spider hobby as a whole? We don't need to add to it.