Sicarius sp care info

[Lucky Luciano]

How exactly is venom effect on mice or rabbits relevant to human mortality? Because, for example, Selenocosmia. sp can kill a dog in 30 minutes but is not deadly to humans.

There seem to be not many case studies on humans:

This investigation also shows that S. testaceus is potentially harmful to humans, but the potential role of species susceptibility (Khole, 1991) and body mass will only be known if proven human envenomation by this spider is recorded. Profound tissue necrosis in patients after spider bite has been recorded in South Africa, but the spiders involved have usually escaped identification (Matthews, 1994

from Venom of a six-eyed crab spider, Sicarius testaceus (Purcell, 1908), causes necrotic and haemorrhagic lesions in the rabbit

Bites by Sicarius are uncommon in humans and, in Brazil, a single report is known of a 17-year old man bitten by a Sicarius species that developed a necrotic lesion similar to that caused by Loxosceles. Envenomation by Loxosceles spiders can result in dermonecrosis and severe ulceration. Sicarius and Loxosceles spider venoms share a common characteristic, i.e., the presence of Sphingomyelinases D (SMase D)

from Lopes, Priscila Hess, et al. "Venom of the Brazilian spider Sicarius ornatus (Araneae, Sicariidae) contains active sphingomyelinase D: potential for toxicity after envenomation." PLoS neglected tropical diseases 7.8 (2013): e2394.

Also, anaphylactic shock caused by spider venom has yet to be proven.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

@Poec9090 Nothing happened, man.

---------- Post added 06-13-2015 at 09:26 AM ----------

"And all that is just a start. In the US your hospital bill is going to resemble the price of a 787 Dreamliner, not counting follow up care."

Top notch comment. This. In USA, where people pay for the cure they receive. But what in Europe (at least some nations of Europe) where the whole community (the nation, the state sanity system, with taxes) PAYS for everyone, even for those who can't pay for lots of valid reasons?
A scenario like that have the potentially to destroy, or "castrate", an entire hobby. There's always a "culprit" at the end, someone to blame for politicians, medias etc
Not sci-fi, or exagerations, but things like bans happened. And NOT for a bite/a mass of serious bites with people "in" and "out" from hospitals, panic due to escapes etc
Not even close. A ban, a complete one of ALL spiders, including the owning of native ones, ALL Theraphosidae, ALL scorpions. In Italy, in 2003, this happened.
Why something like, or similar, or less drastic, can't happen to other nations? That's why i think the keepers should put themselves an honest limit.
We are not talking about weapons, dogs commerce, porn, spirits, smoking etc because those business moves a lot of cash. They have lobbies, people in the right places.
Theraphosidae and spiders in general, don't. Thus in the world of today (especially today) if "you" can't make cash, you are useless. Not worth. And no one will advocate your cause.

---------- Post added 06-13-2015 at 09:35 AM ----------

I suppose it's possible. I'm slightly surprised it hasn't happened with Androctonus or Leiurus. We've been keeping relatively dangerous species for a long time, and, as far as I know, nothing has dragged out a lot of media attention yet. So let's hope that continues

I hope too that. But you are talking about "hot" inverts, being owned by serious, advanced/experts keepers. And, even if a little "ops!" can happen, we are just humans at the end, serious advanced keepers and bites doesn't mix together, because their level of attention is extremely high.
Mine comments "core", the essence, is: living in a "selfie", voyeuristic internet world, things go viral; due to online market, and to people who doesn't care for the hobby but only for the money, there's high chances that beginners, the not completely "full prepared" people, and, yes, even those "Hey, i'm cool than you because i own deadly animals!" idiots gain access to them. With "them" i mean everything "hot", not only Sicarius spp.
An incident would not be unlikely, then.

 

[Anubis77]

Give it time and it defiantly will.

Also.. Androctonus and LQ's are HOT but let's not forget that they are not overkill like the Sicarius sp. I've known people to get stung by both Androctonus spp and LQs without the consequence of death. However extreme caution should always be practiced allong with a few years of experiance collecting other scorpions that are not as hot and learning from fellow hobbiest. These species of scorpions still has the potential to KILL. They are more deadly to some individuals. Especially to a individual who has a illergic reaction to their venom.

Well, like Lucky Luciano commented with his sources, I don't think Sicarius spp. are overkill. We don't really know, but, if it's comparable to Loxosceles, then most bites aren't going to lead to death. LQ and Androctonus are proven to be harmful; Sicarius are hyped up from a lack of information and sketchy suspicions. I'm hesitant to label them as the deadliest spider on Earth based on a couple anecdotal reports.

I hope too that. But you are talking about "hot" inverts, being owned by serious, advanced/experts keepers. And, even if a little "ops!" can happen, we are just humans at the end, serious advanced keepers and bites doesn't mix together, because their level of attention is extremely high.
Mine comments "core", the essence, is: living in a "selfie", voyeuristic internet world, things go viral; due to online market, and to people who doesn't care for the hobby but only for the money, there's high chances that beginners, the not completely "full prepared" people, and, yes, even those "Hey, i'm cool than you because i own deadly animals!" idiots gain access to them. With "them" i mean everything "hot", not only Sicarius spp.
An incident would not be unlikely, then.

LQs are all over the place. Definitely not owned only by experts. They're probably the easiest to get and most attractive highly venomous species people can buy with the name "Deathstalker." That's just perfect for Youtube views.

 

[The Snark]

Deadliest: that which causes, not can cause, the most deaths, presumably in a human population. Phoneutria wins hands down without a close second. Sicarius is way back in the pack.

The use of the word 'potential' or similar should be applied here to help offset media sensationalism.
As in all bullets have the potential to be deadly but the lowly .38/9mm is the deadliest. Not due to it's energy delivery but to so many of them falling into the hands of homo moronicus.

Homo Moronicus: a sub species of homo erectus usually identified by having <500 active neurons in it's pre-frontal cortex.

 

[Necromion]

Deadliest: that which causes, not can cause, the most deaths, presumably in a human population. Phoneutria wins hands down without a close second. Sicarius is way back in the pack.

The use of the word 'potential' or similar should be applied here to help offset media sensationalism.
As in all bullets have the potential to be deadly but the lowly .38/9mm is the deadliest. Not due to it's energy delivery but to so many of them falling into the hands of homo moronicus.

Homo Moronicus: a sub species of homo erectus usually identified by having <500 active neurons in it's pre-frontal cortex.

No Truer words have been spoken in a long time.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Deadliest: that which causes, not can cause, the most deaths, presumably in a human population. Phoneutria wins hands down without a close second. Sicarius is way back in the pack.

The use of the word 'potential' or similar should be applied here to help offset media sensationalism.
As in all bullets have the potential to be deadly but the lowly .38/9mm is the deadliest. Not due to it's energy delivery but to so many of them falling into the hands of homo moronicus.

Homo Moronicus: a sub species of homo erectus usually identified by having <500 active neurons in it's pre-frontal cortex.

This scenario could happen: "Homo Moronicus" buy online a Phoneutria spp. (and they sold those spiders online in some European nation). Homo Moronicus sooner or later (due to handling, obviously the fact he's not prepared, he don't know the basics "know how" etc) get bitten. Homo Moronicus die, in a hospital (or at least report an injuri, the ones you can't simply put to silence with the media, especially in some not so big like NY or L.A, European towns - such losing a limb, or report some "life permanent" disease).
Ending is with the hobby banned, or part of the hobby banned, due to Homo Moronicus actions (both customer and sellers).

---------- Post added 06-14-2015 at 08:03 PM ----------

Well, like Lucky Luciano commented with his sources, I don't think Sicarius spp. are overkill. We don't really know, but, if it's comparable to Loxosceles, then most bites aren't going to lead to death. LQ and Androctonus are proven to be harmful; Sicarius are hyped up from a lack of information and sketchy suspicions. I'm hesitant to label them as the deadliest spider on Earth based on a couple anecdotal reports.



LQs are all over the place. Definitely not owned only by experts. They're probably the easiest to get and most attractive highly venomous species people can buy with the name "Deathstalker." That's just perfect for Youtube views.

Macrothele calpeiana, as you know, is in the same family of Atrax robustus, Hexathelidae. Now, even if their venom is strong and definitely a spider no one doesn't wanna to be bitten by, as far as i know they are not deadly, nor somewhat they can leave a man with some invalidating (don't know if this is the right word for that, sorry) disease.
Atrax robustus, on the other hand, is. If bitten, you will need asap the antidote shot.
Loxosceles spp. are not defensive at all spiders, this is indeed a true fact. Just that they, even if not always, can really really create a mess. Don't know now if "Loxoscelism" happens due completely to their venom, or some bacteria they carry, just that here, last summer, due to a Loxosceles rufescens bite, a man lost a finger (Docs were forced for save his hand).
And i have seen and heard about things like that on a lot videos of nations were Loxosceles spp. are present. "Arana Violinista", in central south America... now, the only reasons why we don't know how strong would be a Sycarius hahni bite on a man, it's only due to them not being defensives and the fact that they live recluse where no man's would live.
Just that, my two cents, i have reason to believe they are "more powerful" than Loxosceles spp. They are Loxosceles spp. badass brothers.
Imo what give me to think and worry it's not if they are really N°1 deadliest spiders, but the fact that with a bite, they can really leave someone with permanent damage troubles.

 

[The Snark]

And another aspect of deadly six eyed sand spiders.
It is an established proven fact overfeeding spiders shortens their life spans as does agitating and disturbing the animal. Upon reading up, most Sicarius have taken dormancy and self induced torpor into a refined art form, able to go for months between feedings.
So you end up with one of two animal keepers. The 'hey check out my deadly spider in action I'm trying to kill' crowd and the 'this is my pet sand box cum desert' folks: There's a spider in there I get to see for maybe a minute every month or two.

So it seems to me if a person wants thrills and chills, obtain two animals. A Heteropoda Venatoria and a feisty common scolopendra. One you can't catch and the other you don't want to catch. All the thrills, frustrations, activity and pain a person could possibly want.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

And another aspect of deadly six eyed sand spiders.
It is an established proven fact overfeeding spiders shortens their life spans as does agitating and disturbing the animal. Upon reading up, most Sicarius have taken dormancy and self induced torpor into a refined art form, able to go for months between feedings.
So you end up with one of two animal keepers. The 'hey check out my deadly spider in action I'm trying to kill' crowd and the 'this is my pet sand box cum desert' folks: There's a spider in there I get to see for maybe a minute every month or two.

So it seems to me if a person wants thrills and chills, obtain two animals. A Heteropoda Venatoria and a feisty common scolopendra. One you can't catch and the other you don't want to catch. All the thrills and pain and activity a person could possibly want.

They are by far the fastest spiders for you? (Heteropoda venatoria)

 

[The Snark]

They are by far the fastest spiders for you? (Heteropoda venatoria)

I really have to think about that going by actual observations and mechanical theory.

The fastest burst of speed is probably in the Oxyopidae family with the generic Green Lynx hovering in the top 2%. They use a combination of thoracic and leg muscles pretty equally. The speed limitation is in regulating the hydraulic pressure in coordination with muscular contraction.

The sparassid on the other hand mostly uses thoracic musculature in lateral motions of third class levers both in the motion to propel the animal forwards and in retraction of the leg for the next propulsion stroke. The speed limitation that enters into that is primarily inertia.

With the Lynx, due to it's smaller size, it is capable of restricting the hydraulic pressure extremely rapidly which would not be possible with longer legged spiders as there will be some residual pressure that must be dispersed.

Then you take a more complex running pattern as typified by Phoneutria. They combine leg motion more or less front to back. The foremost pair of legs oriented almost directly forwards requiring up and down thoracic muscle operation while the third and forth pairs move more laterally as the sparassid. So over uneven surfaces the phoneutria has the edge but on flat surfaces it lacks the all out third class lateral leverage.

Then there is the lycosid type which are in general somewhere between sparassid mechanics and the phoneutria class. Greater power, less speed.


So the great equalizer in all this would boil down to mechanical energy of the thoracic muscles vs combination of hydraulic and direct leverage. Generally speaking, hydraulic energy is a transmitted force that takes some time to set things in motion. Watch a back hoe in operation. Great power but slower. So with the larger spider, I'd have to hand it to the sparassids. relying on the much more powerful muscles within the thorax but in bursts of speed until the hydraulic reservoir is unable to supply more than a certain amount, the lynx comes out on top.

The sparassid type spider having lateral motions of the legs uses opposing flexor muscles in both directions. This cannot be accomplished with any spider that runs primarily using the muscles within the legs themselves.

Of course with sparassids, inertia is the limiting factor. Venatoria is faster than Maxima due to the weight and greater leg movement required. A young near adult male venatoria is faster than a mature female as it has less than half the inertia with only slightly less musculature.


Hydraulics. Spiders do not have extensor muscles. They use hydraulic pressure instead. This is demonstrated by watching the jumping spider. They run in short bursts. Each burst depletes the hydraulic reservoir within the body cavity which must then be built back up. Their ability to jump comes from them being able to release a huge amount of the hydraulic pressure instantly.

 

[Galapoheros]

Hey poec9090, I was given a few slings and raised them, not hard. I was actually a little bored with them but spiders aren't high on my interest list, I currently have a few spider sps though. I kept mine in containers with open tops, dry sand, sprayed the sides now and then. If in a bigger container I'd wet a corner just a little now and then also. A lot of common sense of course, keep kids away, don't knock things over... accidents do happen. My impression was that it would take trapping them somehow for them to bite.

 

[Hellemose]

Just to prove that bans do happend, here in Denmark this is the list of inverts that are forbidden.

Centipedes (Chilopoda):

Scholopendra gigantea and Scholopendra heros.

Scorpions (Scorpiones):

Androctonus spp., Buthus spp., Centruroides spp., Tityus spp., Hottentotta spp., Leiurus spp. and Parabuthus spp.

Spiders (Araneae):

Atrax robustus, Phoneutria nigriventer, Loxosceles reclusa, Tegenaria agrestis, Latrodectus spp. and Sicarius spp.

 

[Galapoheros]

Interesting bans there Hellemose. I'm curious why they were banned. Do you know if 'all' those bans are due to bites/venom, or are some due to some possibly getting loose and surviving in Denmark. Or is it a combo?

 

[Tcollector]

Hey poec9090, I was given a few slings and raised them, not hard. I was actually a little bored with them but spiders aren't high on my interest list, I currently have a few spider sps though. I kept mine in containers with open tops, dry sand, sprayed the sides now and then. If in a bigger container I'd wet a corner just a little now and then also. A lot of common sense of course, keep kids away, don't knock things over... accidents do happen. My impression was that it would take trapping them somehow for them to bite.

Yeah I had just aquired a few Sicarius from a local breeder yesterday. I'm suppose to be recieving them soon. I'm just going to keep them in the same security cage as my L. quinquestriatus since there is plenty of room. NOTE: they are not in the exact enclosure as the LQ but in the second cage that holds the LQ enclosure.

The next trues I am after is just the Ctenizidae.

I mostly do allot of tarantulas and scorpions. Most trues seem boring to me on a big level lol. I was about to aquire some P. nigriventer but given their personality, speed, venom and the ability to climb is a no go for me :-/

 

[The Snark]

Interesting bans there Hellemose. I'm curious why they were banned. Do you know if 'all' those bans are due to bites/venom, or are some due to some possibly getting lose and surviving in Denmark. Or is it a combo?

You have touched upon the heart of the matter there. Legislation and determinations in this regard can be anywhere from logical restricting of invasive animals to pure knee jerk reactions stemming from media sensationalism or asinine ideologies on the part of the courts or law makers. The ongoing conflicts like the abortion issue in the US demonstrate the extremism and lack of objectivity and neutrality when these laws and rules are cranked out.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Just to prove that bans do happend, here in Denmark this is the list of inverts that are forbidden.

Centipedes (Chilopoda):

Scholopendra gigantea and Scholopendra heros.

Scorpions (Scorpiones):

Androctonus spp., Buthus spp., Centruroides spp., Tityus spp., Hottentotta spp., Leiurus spp. and Parabuthus spp.

Spiders (Araneae):

Atrax robustus, Phoneutria nigriventer, Loxosceles reclusa, Tegenaria agrestis, Latrodectus spp. and Sicarius spp.

Let me say that for "Araneae" is a fair enough list. Tegenaria agrestis is the less dangerous btw
It's good that those sp. are banned.

---------- Post added 06-15-2015 at 08:34 PM ----------

Interesting bans there Hellemose. I'm curious why they were banned. Do you know if 'all' those bans are due to bites/venom, or are some due to some possibly getting loose and surviving in Denmark. Or is it a combo?

They are banned because they have a potentially deadly venom, or, like Atrax robustus, deadly (you will need asap one, or more, antidote shot, but if you aren't in Australia... well) I also doubt that, maybe, and i say maybe, except for Tegenaria agrestis and Loxosceles spp. (only if repaired in homes where they can sneak etc) those spiders would stand against the cold of great viking nation.

 

[The Snark]

Let me say that for "Araneae" is a fair enough list. Tegenaria agrestis is the less dangerous btw
It's good that those sp. are banned.

---------- Post added 06-15-2015 at 08:34 PM ----------



They are banned because they have a potentially deadly venom, or, like Atrax robustus, deadly (you will need asap one, or more, antidote shot, but if you aren't in Australia... well) I also doubt that, maybe, and i say maybe, except for Tegenaria agrestis and Loxosceles spp. (only if repaired in homes where they can sneak etc) those spiders would stand against the cold of great viking nation.

But animals like scorps and centipedes? About a quarter of the worlds population dance around them on a daily basis. That's just not in sync with reality.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

But animals like scorps and centipedes? About a quarter of the worlds population dance around them on a daily basis. That's just not in sync with reality.

Eh, true.. in Morocco i saw people, childrens as well, picking hot desert scorpions with bare hands, those in India with cobra etc etc you know better than me, this things, especially in some Asia nations, happens.. this is part of their folklore, they do that for tourists, lot of stuff.
It's different the perception of the common people about those animals when they are in a European or USA nation and someone have them in an enclosure.
Cobra, in an India town with an old, long bearded man dressed in orange playing a flute? (Example) Is "folklore".
Me, with the same cobra, in my home? A criminal, a psycho, a weirdo, someone who put everyone in danger etc etc

---------- Post added 06-16-2015 at 01:14 PM ----------

But animals like scorps and centipedes? About a quarter of the worlds population dance around them on a daily basis. That's just not in sync with reality.

Also... let's think. Someone, don't know how, is able to have a male (they are worst i've heard) specimen of Atrax robustus in a European town, or USA (not big ones like L.A, Paris, NY, London.. little town) got bitten. The antidote?
The antidote is, from what i know, only ready available in Australia. Will not for sure arrive on time imo.
A ban worldwide (except for scientists, researchers etc) of those Mygalomorphae is not unfair, for me is common sense. Don't want to sound as an heretic, being now in Arachnoboards, but they can kill.

 

[The Snark]

I once saw a picture of some animal keeper carrying our big black scorps. Held by the tail, pinched between fingers, 4 in each hand. Wish I kept that pic. Talk about dicing with potential pain. Wave a hand in front of them, they raise the sting and get grabbed just behind it. That seems to be the preferred method of handling them among the locals.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Fear Not is selling a Sicarus Gracillus and I was looking at getting one cause.... yeah it's cool.

I'm glad I read this thread as now I am probably not. If the Sicarus venom is so potent... I may not be ready. Pokies and the... Calcatum terrify me already. I hear so many horror stories.

Then again... I own a H. Mac so I may be prepared? Granted he's a baby still.

I own quite a few Old worlds and my Pelinobius Muticus is one of my favorites.

As much as some people's responses here are over the top aggressive and rude, I do appreciate what I think the sentiment behind it is. Though I think teaching should be more important than scaring.

You are all great.

 

[Ratmosphere]

I kept Sicarius thomisoides in the past. Kept them in terrestrial style/taller dimensioned AMAC boxes so that they could not climb.

Barely ever saw them, unless it was feeding time. These sand spiders are extremely fun to watch hunt their prey.

Decided to sell them because I did not see them much. Cool experience but wouldn't do it again.