shredded coconut husk mushroom problems!!

[odiakkoh]

This isn't true, unfortunately. We've had some really remarkable, brilliant yellow mushrooms growing in our T. blondi's cages. 100% peat.

In the first Jurassic Park, what did the chaotician - Dr. Ian Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) - say about life finding a way?

That's very interesting. I've seen so many members go as far as insulting coco fiber and advocating peat moss because of the mold and fungus issue. Now this has turned everything upside down lol.

ETA: I don't own any Ts yet so it's a nonissue for me.

 

[Galapoheros]

I have a book about mushrooms, we are taught most are poisonous when we are kids but relatively few are poisonous to humans, just like a lot of us are taught about snakes, while most snake species in the US aren't poisonous. It's just a parents way of keeping us safe but it spreads ignorance so I don't like that safety strategy. And who knows if any mushrooms are poisonous to tarantulas?, or if most are? I'd bet that none are a big threat to Ts. But if you don't want to take the chance, why not take them out. I have them grow in my cages sometimes, esp. big yellow ones, I just leave them and let them grow. It looks like they grow and use up all or most of whatever it is they feed on because I don't see others grow after the first ones die off. I don't worry about mold or mushrooms, kind of natural and the stuff is everywhere in nature. Nothing has died while the mushrooms were growing. What I watch for is what the mold is growing on, maybe it's something dead that needs to be removed that I missed. I think the fungus mycelium and mold might even be beneficial in breaking things down in the cages.

 

[Bill S]

Peat is naturally decomposed sphagnum mosses, harvested from peat bogs. It is slighlty acidic, which is what prevents most species of fungus from growing on it. However, if you take peat moss and rinse it out with slightly alkaline water, you can neutralize that acidity. Even flushing it with distilled water can reduce the acidity. Some fungi may be more tolerant of acidity, hence able to grow in peat. And some peat used in our cages may not be acidic enough to prevent fungal growth. In either case, the peat itself does not generally provide nutrient for the growth of fungi, but contaminants can exist in peat, and we certainly introduce contaminants into peat substrate every time we toss crickets into it, every time our tarantula or other arachnid deposits waste in the substrate. Fungus spores are everywhere, and if a spore lands in fertile, damp ground with low enough acidity, it will grow.

 

[joshuai]

...This...

I got a few peat tanks popping up yellow mushrooms all over the place dont think you dont get them with peat also sometimes!!

 

[odiakkoh]

Peat is naturally decomposed sphagnum mosses, harvested from peat bogs. It is slighlty acidic, which is what prevents most species of fungus from growing on it. However, if you take peat moss and rinse it out with slightly alkaline water, you can neutralize that acidity. Even flushing it with distilled water can reduce the acidity. Some fungi may be more tolerant of acidity, hence able to grow in peat. And some peat used in our cages may not be acidic enough to prevent fungal growth. In either case, the peat itself does not generally provide nutrient for the growth of fungi, but contaminants can exist in peat, and we certainly introduce contaminants into peat substrate every time we toss crickets into it, every time our tarantula or other arachnid deposits waste in the substrate. Fungus spores are everywhere, and if a spore lands in fertile, damp ground with low enough acidity, it will grow.

Thank you for the educational post. What type of water do you recommend we use to keep as much of its acidic level as possible?

 

[Stan Schultz]

I did read about that, which is why I said I wouldn't take the risk with the mushrooms. An interesting case that one.

Also, it's nice to "meet" you. I've read your book, as I'm sure almost everyone on this forum has.

And, thanks for the compliment. I haunt several of these forums, sometimes to lend my "vast wisdom and knowlege" (I often have to refer back to my copy of TKG3 to make sure I get it right! ), but especially to learn more about our little 8-legged buddies.

Keep up the good work everybody!

 

[Bill S]

Thank you for the educational post. What type of water do you recommend we use to keep as much of its acidic level as possible?

To be honest, I have no particular recommendation on this. I suppose rain water would be a good choice - people are usually surprised to learn that rainwater is generally acidic, somewhere around 5.5 on the pH scale by the time it hits the ground (and I'm not referring to "acid rain" - that's something completely different).

The cage is never going to be a duplication of nature. We're constantly adding various forms of nutrition to the substrate that would be put to use somehow in nature. My vote is to just get used to the idea that every once in a while we need to do some cage cleaning and provide new substrate. Depending on your local climate, habits and circumstances, your mileage may vary.

 

[odiakkoh]

To be honest, I have no particular recommendation on this. I suppose rain water would be a good choice - people are usually surprised to learn that rainwater is generally acidic, somewhere around 5.5 on the pH scale by the time it hits the ground (and I'm not referring to "acid rain" - that's something completely different).

The cage is never going to be a duplication of nature. We're constantly adding various forms of nutrition to the substrate that would be put to use somehow in nature. My vote is to just get used to the idea that every once in a while we need to do some cage cleaning and provide new substrate. Depending on your local climate, habits and circumstances, your mileage may vary.

But that requires effort

 

[Stan Schultz]

DISCLIAMER: Note that this dissertation is not aimed at the original poster, but at the arachnoculture hobby in general. There is absolutely nothing personal here!

The large, brilliant yellow mushrooms that we see growing on damp peat go by the scientific name Leucocoprinus birnbaumii. It used to be called Lepiota lutea. If you're interested in finding out more about it, Google the following.

"Leucocoprinus birnbaumii" site:edu

Trying to change the acidity (pH) of peat in your tarantula's cage will have little lasting effect. Peat is acid for a very good reason: Damp peat rots slowly and the rotting process releases acid. Make it alkaline today and next week it'll be acid all over again.

Aquarists fell into a similar trap decades ago. People living in areas with very alkaline water often had trouble maintaining fish arising from acid water (e.g., people using well water in central Michigan trying to keep cardinal tetras newly imported from Brazil). So, ignorant or unscrupulous aquarium shops would sell them a pH testing kit and a small container of sodium bisulfite.

The aquarists would immediately go home, test their water, find that it was markedly alkaline, and dope it with sodium bisulfite to lower the pH. In a few days they would find that the water had returned to alkaline, so they'd treat the aquarium again. This would repeat for several weeks until all their fish finally died.

What was happening? The hard water, heavily laden with calcium, was naturally alkaline because the calcium acts as a buffer system that naturally maintains the water at an alkaline pH. And, the final pH depends a lot on the calcium concentration in the water, with harder water being more alkaline.

If you add some acidifying agent like bisulfite you are trying to overpower this calcium buffer system. The deceptive part is that it works for a few days making the aquarist think they've actually accomplished something. But, the various biological processes working in the aquarium would eventually consume the bisulfite, allowing the calcium buffer system to recover.

But why did the fish still die? The pH roller coaster ride would weaken them, they'd contract some hideous infection, and die. Or, the salt concentration from all that bisulfite would eventually reach a level that was harmful to the fish. (South American catfish and tetras, for instance, are notoriously sensitive to excessive salt concentrations.)

In the meantime the aquarium shop sold hundreds of pH testing kits, thousands of bottles of bisulfite, and eventually untold numbers of tanks full of expensive tropical fish before the hobbyist (usually by pure luck) happened on fish that were pre-acclimated to hard water, or figured out the problem.

What should the aquarist really do? Remove the calcium from the water. There are two good methods for doing this. One is to set up the aquarium with distilled, demineralized, or reverse osmosis water (no calcium at all), then check the pH daily, adding small quantities of hard (i.e., calcium laden) tap water until a uniform pH was reached within the desired range. Once an appropriate but small amount of calcium built up to maintain only a weak buffer system, the pH would remain indefinitely near the desired value.

Or, use a small Zeolite, water softening kit (available in any really good aquarium shop) in the filter to remove the bulk of the calcium from the initial tap water. This too requires daily checks of pH, but when it reaches the desired value one must merely remove the water softener kit, and the pH will remain at the desired level almost forever. (Don't waste your money on a calcium test kit. You don't care about the calcium. It's the final pH that you're interested in.)

The moral to this story: Don't waste your time trying to fiddle with peat's pH. You're fighting a naturally occurring system that has complete control of the game, and the game is fixed: You lose!

You also need to understand that even if you were able to magically make peat less acid in an effort to retard something's growth, there are 12 dozen other species of something else waiting in the wings that will grow just fine on neutral or alkaline peat. You haven't changed the game one bit. You've only changed the players!

BEGINNING OF RANT

So, how do you get rid of the mushrooms once and for all? Dry the tarantula's cage out. Very few fungi are capable of living in an arid habitat. And, if you've been paying attention, that's what we've been preaching for decades.

Very few tarantulas require a high humidity or a swamp cage. Unless you're trying to keep one of those few, keep the peat, coconut husk, whatever substrate bone dry. You can raise the humidity in your cage by simply installing a larger water dish and covering the open part of the cage with plastic food wrap. Problem solved! No more mushrooms, mold, mites, springtails, etc. And, the tarantula still has a reasonably humid habitat if that's your concern.

But, you cry, "How do I grow my XXXX plant in a desert dry cage?"

Don't be silly. The only reason you're trying to grow plants with your tarantula is that you like to see the plants growing. I'll give you big odds that your tarantula has never, Never, NEVER told you it needed a live plant in its cage!

If you need to grow live plants, set up a Wardian case or something similar for the plants. Keep you tarantula in a cage that's designed for tarantulas. (But refer to the very last paragraphs for an intriguing workaround.)

"But, I want to keep my tarantula in a natural and organic habitat that mimics its natural environment to keep it happy and healthy!" Horse pucky! Haven't you been paying attention? In the jungle or desert, everything tries to parasitize the tarantula, infect the tarantula, or eat the tarantula alive. Tarantulas die in the wild! And, because they breed naturally by themselves, Mother Nature doesn't have to pay for them, and doesn't give a rat's behind.

But, you have to pay good, hard cash for yours! BIG DIFFERENCE! So, you should care a lot. And, it would behoove you to pay attention, and set the cage up so you don't have to worry about mold, mushrooms, pH, mites and a zillion other little creepy crawlies killing your prized investment.

Marguerite and I have been keeping tarantulas successfully for over 40 years now. So have just a lot of other people. We've killed our fair share of tarantulas trying to learn how not to kill any more. Listen to us! If you're going to make mistakes, don't be copy cats. At least be original about it!

At this point I would reasonably expect to hear from the isopod contingent, and perhaps justifiably so. They have a valid argument that isopods would eliminate most, if not all the problem.

But, the major difficulty here is that now we have to turn our attention from keeping tarantulas to keeping isopods. And a lot of us, particularly novices and those who (for various reasons) want to keep only a tarantula or three, simply don't want the bother. And the rest of us may be interested in tarantulas, but couldn't care less about crustaceans. So, although isopods may work, they aren't a universal solution.

Perhaps an arid cage is also not a universal solution, but perhaps it comes significantly closer. Ultimately it may be a lot easier than either the constant concerns of maintaining a damp cage or trying to maintain isopods.

END OF RANT.

AND NOW LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, BOYS AND GIRLS...

The aforementioned workaround. This is a trick borrowed from the aquarium hobby. Basically, all you need do is seal a carefully fitted piece of glass vertically, lengthwise in any aquarium that's not too tall for your particular tarantula.

Thus, the aquarium is now divided into two separate compartments, front and back, that run left to right along the length of the aquarium. (A variant might also be diagonally, corner to corner.) They are sealed watertight with aquarium grade silicone so the moisture required for the plants is forever blocked from effecting the tarantula's compartment. The glass divider should go all the way to the top of the aquarium's plastic rim and the cover to forestall any escapes.

(WARNING: ALMOST EVERY ENTHUSIAST AND AMATEUR AQUARIUM BUILDER USES WAY, WAY TOO MUCH SILICONE! Look at the way the professionals made the aquarium: Almost no silicone.)

A custom, absolutely escape proof cover must be made for the forward compartment where the tarantula will live. Provision should also be made for both a water dish and someplace where the tarantula can hide from the bright light. And, a fluorescent (NOT incandescent!) aquarium light fixture can be arranged over the rear half for the plants.

In effect you have two separate cages joined Siamese twin fashion, plants in the back and tarantula in the front, each with its own special conditions for its occupants. If done properly, the dividing glass barrier can be made almost invisible, and at first glance it LOOKS like you have plants in the same cage as your tarantula.

Enjoy your little 8-legged compartment dweller!

 

[codykrr]

That's very interesting. I've seen so many members go as far as insulting coco fiber and advocating peat moss because of the mold and fungus issue. Now this has turned everything upside down lol.

ETA: I don't own any Ts yet so it's a nonissue for me.

I just want to clarify. mushrooms are very different from "mold" while yes it is a fungi as well, their are certain sp. and whole families of mushrooms(best example is the morel) that will and can only grow in substrate that is acidic.

When I suggest peat over Coco, I do so because its cheaper, holds better burrows, retains moisture better and is more acidic which helps prevent "mold".

Peat and coco fiber are used in commercial and illegal mushroom farms. so dont think using peat is 100% fool proof way to never deal with fungi.

I am just biased towards peat for the above reasons. Not to mention I hate seeing people waste 9 dollars for maybe 1 cubic foot of "pet grade" brick coco coir. when you could spend 12 bucks for 4 cubic feet of peat. this would allow you to save more money, which means more Ts.

Also Stan. great post. Thanks for the info on the mushrooms. though I will say I have seen some mushrooms in tanks I know arent always that species. Its nice to get an idea of what they are.

To edit in.- I believe the yellow mushrooms found in some enclosures with peat moss, might have gotten into the peat from being stored next to and around potting soil. Since that particular sp. is typically found in potted plants it makes sense.

think about it. when you go to lowes where do they keep the bales? next to the potting soil. they might be in plastic bags, but there are holes in them sometimes and even on the outside of the bag. we could easily transfer the spores into the enclosure with out hands, from touching the outside of the bag.

 

[odiakkoh]

Cody I hope you don't think I was pointing you out without using names. I was just stating what I've generally noticed while reading the archives for the past couple weeks.

 

[codykrr]

No thats fine, I just wanted to clarify, because I do advocate peat over coco. There was a recent thread on this subject where I said "it will help prevent mold and fungus"

I just wanted to make it clear, that peat is not a 100% fool proof way of preventing fungus.

 

[bloodred1889]

the mushrooms growing in my tanks arnt the yellow kind, the head of the mushroom isnt like that... the only way i can decribe the head of these mushrooms expesially the small baby ones is they look like.. a penis.

they dont grow in patches just one or two in a tank and there white but when there young the top bell shaped heaf is brown tipped and then when older its blue/brown.

ive had this mushroom gfrow in two diffrrent tankjs that used two diffrent packs of cocofibre.. so i dont know if the spores came from me, i would have thought the spores would be already in the pack...

 

[Stan Schultz]

the mushrooms growing in my tanks arnt the yellow kind, the head of the mushroom isnt like that... the only way i can decribe the head of these mushrooms expesially the small baby ones is they look like.. a penis. ...

And, at this juncture I will only mention a group of fungi called stinkhorns and let you Google the following string.

"stinkhorn" fungus site:edu

And, if yours aren't some species of stinkhorn, there are literally hundreds or thousands of other fungi that they could be. If you're really driven to identify them, take them to a local county agriculture agent or a local college or university mycologist and ask them to help you. You can get the county agriculture agent's phone number in the government pages of your local phone book. Look for the listing of the college or university in the white pages or Yellow Pages, and ask to speak to someone in the Botany Department. If they don't have one, ask for the Biology Department.

... so i dont know if the spores came from me, i would have thought the spores would be already in the pack...

The original spores likely came in on a pack of peat or shredded coconut husk, or even just fell out of the air. It's even possible that a neighbor was mulching their flower bed or garden with either of those two or even with composted wood byproducts and the wind blew the spores your direction.

Once they gain a toehold in your cages it's almost impossible to completely rid yourself of them. They're now all over your home (a lot like tarantulas' urticating bristles), and every time you rearrange the furniture or even vacuum the carpet you raise a few into the air. And, all it takes is one spore in the right environment (e.g., a damp tarantula cage), and the infestation continues.

Dry the cage out. You live in a mite, fungus, bacteria, etc., etc., laden world. Accept the fact, dry your tarantula cages out, and get on with enjoying the hobby.

 

[Irfin]

Clean your enclosure. Fungi don't go away, especially mushrooms. Most of the fungi is underneath the soil (mycelium) so if you are seeing mushrooms it means that most of your medium if not all is contaminated with mycelium which will lead to mushroom growth, spore propagation which leads to more mushrooms. Remove everything organic and start over. Also, I would recommend using a different source of medium. It's likely that your initial medium was already hosting spores.

 

[LeilaNami]

No thats fine, I just wanted to clarify, because I do advocate peat over coco. There was a recent thread on this subject where I said "it will help prevent mold and fungus"

I just wanted to make it clear, that peat is not a 100% fool proof way of preventing fungus.

Maybe the reason people are willing to buy coco over peat, cody, is because peat mining is an unethical practice that so one seems to know or care about. I'd rather not participate in the degradation of peat bogs because a surprise mushroom pops up and I want to be a cheapskate. Also, how often really do you need to clean the cocofiber (provided you spot clean)? Is a rare payment of 9 bucks too much to ask? I'm happy to pay it. You can also buy topsoil from gravel yards if you can.
/endrant (no offense to you cody. The lack of awareness to this issue perturbs me)

 

[codykrr]

Maybe the reason people are willing to buy coco over peat, cody, is because peat mining is an unethical practice that so one seems to know or care about. I'd rather not participate in the degradation of peat bogs because a surprise mushroom pops up and I want to be a cheapskate. Also, how often really do you need to clean the cocofiber (provided you spot clean)? Is a rare payment of 9 bucks too much to ask? I'm happy to pay it. You can also buy topsoil from gravel yards if you can.
/endrant (no offense to you cody. The lack of awareness to this issue perturbs me)

I have heard the arguments. but note. coconut farming condones deforestation. so there really isnt a better or worse when it comes to ethics.

my take. there both bad for the environment. why not use the one thats cheaper, and makes for a better overall substrate.

besides. I used coco fiber for years. Untill my collection grew to over 50 or so. then tank maintenance can cost big money. When I clean tanks, I do all at once. You know how many bricks that would take. I have well over 100 tarantulas, plus scorpions and pedes. probably close to around 12 to 15 bricks.

also alot of the "peat farming is from bogs that have dried up.

doesnt look like there is a bog there...

[YOUTUBE]eVTMBXMKxNU&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

and this is where tons of forest once stood.

[YOUTUBE]_aLIkoAqn8c[/YOUTUBE]

 

[LeilaNami]

I have heard the arguments. but note. coconut farming condones deforestation. so there really isnt a better or worse when it comes to ethics.

my take. there both bad for the environment. why not use the one thats cheaper, and makes for a better overall substrate.

besides. I used coco fiber for years. Untill my collection grew to over 50 or so. then tank maintenance can cost big money. When I clean tanks, I do all at once. You know how many bricks that would take. I have well over 100 tarantulas, plus scorpions and pedes. probably close to around 12 to 15 bricks.

also alot of the "peat farming is from bogs that have dried up.

doesnt look like there is a bog there...

[YOUTUBE]eVTMBXMKxNU&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

and this is where tons of forest once stood.

[YOUTUBE]_aLIkoAqn8c[/YOUTUBE]

Of course, any resource is going to take from the environment but peat bogs are damaged a lot faster and do not renew as quickly. As for dried up bogs, just because it is dried up, doesn't mean the ecosystem is dead and farming it makes it stay depleted. Peat takes centuries to become what it is whereas coconut farming not so much. Rather than cost, I try to choose the lesser evil. I can understand the cost issue of having a large collection. At the very least, use a soil with little peat additive. I'm more concerned with people having small collections and insisting on using 100% peat.

 

[donal]

peat is called peat moss hear ireland the trick is to get the cheapest one you can there grean shamrock ones heare thing there 10 euro for 180 litere it is soil like . its the bog itself think you call them moorsover there in the uk spagmum is the uper few inches of its green moss like stuff is mainly used for frog ceaping and such but iv seen a few use it on hear as an adition. thew often use the term peat moss this is from a few inches down to i forget exactly but lets say 3ft this is what makes the best for gardening and is what youll find in the garden center just look for peat moss have a good look at the packet and stay away from anything that says inriched, micronutriates, or anything along those lines when you get it home have a sift threw it for anything that looks like small beads about the size of two mach heads this is the most common fertiliser the use in it but the cheap stuff should not have any as for coconut husk i think im going to avoid it two i added some to my t rose tank and he dosent seem to like it

 

[codykrr]

Forests dont grow over night either. And if the demand for coco fiber goes us, the more forest will be destroyed. and I doubt there going to let the forest grow back as long as there is a demand for coco fiber.

Like I said, I have debated this dozens of times before on here. and I still stand with peat. IMHO it is the better of the two, and a plus that its cheaper.

To each their own. but there both bad for the environment, so I wouldnt base your purchased based solely on this.

Go for what suits your personal needs. Peat suits my needs, therefore thats what I buy.