Should Non-adults be allowed to own/care for OW species

[Arachnobrian]

I think T dealers can easily figure out whether someone is capable of caring for certain "hot" species, with some simple questions.

 

[ThomasH]

Medically significant species should not be sold to underaged persons, who have, due to their age, a medical susceptibility toward many venoms; and who, due to their age, are not legally competent if an accident should occur.

Because: minors are more vulnerable to an envenomation, and so will incur both greater harm to themselves, and greater legal damages to the hobby if bitten/ stung, than if they were adult.


Many OW species are NOT medically significant. Pterinochilus, Eucratoscelus, Hysterocrates, Citharischius, Ceratogyrus, for instance. Venomous spiders should be kept by those who are physically less at risk, and legally less of a time-bomb for our hobby.

A. Medical significance is an opinion. B. Being 18 doesn't magically keep you from a larger reaction. C. All spiders are venomous. D. Check P. regalis bite reports. The latest bite was to a middle aged man who called 911! That is a ticking time bomb! 911 is a public service hot line that happens to be accessible by the media. It could have been aired and ruined our hobby. I have yet to hear of a child owner who called 911.
Education definitely comes before age. I am a 14 year old male. I keep widows, scorps, T's, [Including Haplopelma's, calceatum's and P. murinus.] copperheads and other venomous exotics. I know what to do in case of incident and nothing has happened to me. I can guarantee I would fair better in bite than most adults. I am healthy, large and strong.
On the other hand I have been bitten by hamsters, a commonly sold children's pet over thirty time.
Really, look at the regalis bite report at the bottom and tell me that he is a better candidate for more potent tarantulas than myself.

 

[ThomasH]

Really with all of the "Oh NO! my T escaped" threads it really is just a matter of time. before some ones small child has an encounter of the venomous kind. Heck even I had 2 Haplos loose a the same time for about 24-32 hrs in a room off of my garage. It is not a matter of if it will happen, it is a matter of when.

The one thing all thos threads had in common is that the escapee didn't leave that room. I have yet to hear of an unattended baby in a T room. Most unattended babies are confined in a strooler or a crib. It is far fetched that out of all places a T would end up there. It would have to be arboreal and a super rare fluke. A scorp or pede wouldn't have a chance at climbing to the child. It takes an unbelievable fluke and a stupid/abusive/neglectful parent for anything close to that senerio. The pede bitten girl lived in natural range.
TBH

 

[equuskat]

I sold a pair of Poecilotheria to a friend's son. The kid is 13.

Am I worried? Absolutely not. He was raised in a house full of animals, and he is well aware that he has to treat the animals with respect. His maturity might be close to his age in many situations, but when it comes to animal care, he is wise beyond his years. He grasped the concept of sexing molts and ventral sexing before his parents did. His parents provide excellent supervision, and granted permission for him to buy the pair from me.

It VERY MUCH depends on the person. If I don't think that someone will be a good keeper, I won't sell to him. If I feel that I person is educated on the species (or at least informed and willing to learn), prepared, and significantly experienced, I see no problem.

 

[Travis K]

People especially you younger folks that seem to be offended by this thread to some extent!

If a young child was to die or get hospitalized it would be sensational and become media-viral very quickly, much more so that an adult. We already have issues in many areas where Tarantulas are not allowed under city ordinances and thing like that. It will only get worse. The speed at which it gets worse is the unknown. That is the reality.

when local or state govs push ballots that discriminate against our hobby the voters will pass it just like smoking bans. As the phrase goes, "every one knows what's best for you". Gettem while you can. Some cities in Canada prohibit you from owning ts and I am pretty sure there are a few communities in the US as well if I remember right. We don't need any bad press so lets all take care of what we have.

 

[Arachnobrian]

I don't think which age, size or health of human is best to handle a pokie bite, or care for one is the main concern here.

Who is responsible when something goes terribly wrong? (many other possibilities), and how do we keep this growing hobby we all enjoy from a quick political halt by selling "hots" to anyone with enough cash.

 

[somethingbig]

my proposition is that dealers take some responsibility and limit who can purchase specific 'hotter' species by age. this would help to eliminate some of the potential negative backlash in the event of a freak accident. this would put the blame solely on the age-legal purchaser, and not have a terrible effect on either the dealer or the hobby. the fact that the dealer has some sort of personal restrictions and disclaimer, would help keep the politicians at bay.

and many keep saying age is arbitrary. maturity is what is most important. let me quote a previous post of mine with only a slight semantic adjustment:

the problem with the maturity logic is: who is the judge of maturity? i agree that there are mature kids and immature adults, but legally, how do we define maturity? is there some sort of test? maturity is subjective, but age is not. age may not be the most sufficient manner, but it is legally the most efficient thing we have to help protect us.

 

[somethingbig]

I don't think which age, size or health of human is best to handle a pokie bite, or care for one is the main concern here.

Who is responsible when something goes terribly wrong? (many other possibilities), and how do we keep this growing hobby we all enjoy from a quick political halt by selling "hots" to anyone with enough cash.

you worded my thoughts precisely!!

 

[AudreyElizabeth]

Reading through this thread I have been wondering if I would let my child have a potentially dangerous species of tarantula (when she gets older).
This is a completely personal issue here in the U.S. (for now anyway) and it is up to the parents. But, it shouldn't be able to be done without parental knowledge. Maybe it should be conducted like seeing an R-rated or PG thirteen movie, with parental permission or advisory. BUT, who is going to 'rate' different tarantula species? If the government should step in they would probably do a blanket policy and say, you can't buy ANY tarantula without a valid photo I.D. And if it was serious enough they would make the transfer of a tarantula to a minor a crime just like alcohol or tobacco. Another option would be to make the sale of a tarantula illegal except to persons who have applied for and been granted a special permit.
I don't know.... I do know that my uncle, while I was growing up, kept lions, pythons, tarantulas, and probably lots of other stuff I don't remember, and had several children in the household. Irresponsible? Maybe, maybe not. No one was ever mauled by a lion, but he would have certainly been held responsible for such an occurance.
Before such laws come into effect I think that sellers, (pet stores and individuals,) must make and abide by certain rules before they are forced to by the government. This would serve to better protect the hobby, although it cannot be inforced. Code of ethics?

 

[cagey]

Travis K had some valid points. We DO need to be concerned about the sensationalism that could arise if a minor were to get bitten by a particularly venomous T. I was a little surprised at the outcry of my friends and blog readers when we first got our T earlier this year - folks thought I had lost mind or was simply a fool for my toddler son who is obsessed with spiders. I did not think it was such a big deal to get an arachnid and that reaction took me aback. But truly, many folks are simply TERRIFIED of common house spiders and garden spiders - Ts are akin to godzilla to them. As a newly minted invertebrate enthusiast myself, I am still shocked when I find myself coaxing spiders out my sink and saving spiders from my shower. I don't even trot them outside, I just make sure they don't drown or get washed down the drain. Even a year ago, I would been squashing those suckers!

While I have y'all....I would like to give a hat tip to everyone commenting on all of this. One of the reasons why I love this forum is that folks are fairly mature about DISCUSSING topics rather than getting mean or nasty about potentitally contentious topics such as this. A personal thanks to everyone for keeping their coo (in general)l and just sharing.

 

[Richard McJimsey]

To the persons whom said no, did you have any ow species when you were under 18?

 

[cagey]

Oops - meant to just highlight the fact that we here forget that most folks are TERRIFIED of a spider with less than an inch or so leg span. Ts are truly gruesome to them and those folks see no reason to NOT ban them.

Let's not GIVE them a reason, shall we?

 

[DreadLobster]

I voted yes... but after reading through most of these posts... I'd have to change my answer to maybe.

I think people under 18 should DEFINITELY be allowed to own them.

However, a person who is under 18, legally speaking, is not in charge of themselves. This is why with guns and cigarettes and fireworks and various other "potentially harmful" things, there are laws restricting the age of who can purchase them.

I do realize how ridiculous our legal system has become, and how likely even one horrible mishap (however unlikely) could outlaw our hobby.

So, given that factor, I do think that minors should be able to own them, but to purchase them, no. Parental consent does wonders to limit lawsuits and liability towards the seller, and overall would probably help to conserve our freedom greatly. Sorry for anyone under 18, but honestly, would you waiting a few years, only owning NW species (a great way to gain experience by the way), really set you back that much? I fail to see how that is really harmful for the hobby, whereas someone getting sent to the emergency room, and their parents suing a seller, most likely one of the very reputable and responsible members of this site, could be really ugly. Just my two cents.

 

[loxoscelesfear]

NO NO NO , the correct answer to this thread is "Who gives a crap?" Kids w/ Ts isn't as frightening as kids w/ guns.

 

[Zoltan]

Hello all,

First of all, sorry if I seem I'm trying to hijack the thread, I'm just curious.

Many OW species are NOT medically significant. Pterinochilus, Eucratoscelus, Hysterocrates, Citharischius, Ceratogyrus, for instance. Venomous spiders should be kept by those who are physically less at risk, and legally less of a time-bomb for our hobby.

Do you have any references?

There was an article published in Toxicon a few years back, about tarantula venom-- one of the figures: "the time to death (min) after ICV injection with 0.1 µL of crude venom in mice". Of the tested African species, Citharischius crawshayi and Hysterocrates sp. "hercules" 'finished' in the top three, meaning the lowest times (along with the infamous Stromatopelma calceatum).

• Escoubas, P. & Rash, L. 2004. Tarantulas: eight-legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists Toxicon Volume 43, Issue 5, pp. 555-574

Ps.: Tiago, in other words, they measured the time it took the mice to die from the tarantulas' venom. Thus logically, the shorter amount of time it takes for a mouse to die --> stronger is the venom. Strong venom = mouse dies fast; less strong venom = mouse dies slower.

 

[Travis K]

The one thing all thos threads had in common is that the escapee didn't leave that room. I have yet to hear of an unattended baby in a T room. Most unattended babies are confined in a strooler or a crib. It is far fetched that out of all places a T would end up there. It would have to be arboreal and a super rare fluke. A scorp or pede wouldn't have a chance at climbing to the child. It takes an unbelievable fluke and a stupid/abusive/neglectful parent for anything close to that senerio. The pede bitten girl lived in natural range.
TBH

who says the T has to come to the baby. Most likely it would be the baby coming to the T.

 

[ReMoVeR]

Hello all,

First of all, sorry if I seem I'm trying to hijack the thread, I'm just curious.



Do you have any references?

There was an article published in Toxicon a few years back, about tarantula venom-- one of the figures: "the time to death (min) after ICV injection with 0.1 µL of crude venom in mice". Of the tested African species, Citharischius crawshayi and Hysterocrates sp. "hercules" 'finished' in the top three (along with the infamous Stromatopelma calceatum).

• Escoubas, P. & Rash, L. 2004. Tarantulas: eight-legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists Toxicon Volume 43, Issue 5, pp. 555-574

Can u plz tell that in other words ? x)

Tkz in advance,

//Tiago

 

[Remigius]

• Escoubas, P. & Rash, L. 2004. Tarantulas: eight-legged pharmacists and combinatorial chemists Toxicon Volume 43, Issue 5, pp. 555-574

Ps.: Tiago, in other words, they measured the time it took the mice to die from the tarantulas' venom. Thus logically, the shorter amount of time it takes for a mouse to die --> stronger is the venom. Strong venom = mouse dies fast; less strong venom = mouse dies slower.

isn't it the same test that g. rosea had some best scores in? I think I remember someone mentioning it was one of the shortest death-times.

 

[upwith inverts!]

Can u plz tell that in other words ? x)

Tkz in advance,

//Tiago

It basically means that some people did a test in mice where they put a certain amount of T venom in the mouse, and saw how long it took the mouse to die. If a mouse injected with venom from a OBT died faster than a mouse injected with H. gigas venom, the OBT venom is more potent

 

[ReMoVeR]

Yeah but how toxic was it? like a scale for example from 1-10 ?

//Tiago