Sex ratios

[Frogdaddy]

So if sex ratios are skewed to have more males than females. What's the correct number to buy?
I know in the fish, herp, frog world 6 was always the minimum number to get at least one pair. Of course buying 8 virtually assured getting at least one of the opposite sex.
But males mature so much faster than females. So what's the formula? Buy 6 or 8 T's, grow them up for a few years to get at least one female and then buy another 6 or 8 and raise them up so you can het at least one male to mate with the older female?
I'm interested in what experienced breeders do.
I guess this also helps to explain the constant flow of adult imports coming into the country. Mature females are at a premium.

 

[Arachnophoric]

The ratio isn't skewed to favor males over females though. Where did you get the idea that it was? In fact iirc I know of more female-heavy species than species that favor the offspring being male (they do exist, but it's not really commonplace).

It's a game of odds, a proverbial roll of the dice. Buying 1 unsexed T gives you a 50/50 shot of getting a female, 2 a 75% chance, 3 a 87.5% chance and so-on. Even with the odds in your favor though sometimes you get a bad roll, so to speak. If you're dead set on getting a female of this species from unsexed slings, I'd buy a minimum of 4, but depending on the species at that point it may be cheaper to just find and buy a sexed female.

In regards to breeding, I'm pretty certain people have better luck and save time by seeking out already matured/ nearly mature males, as they tend to sell only a little more than unsexed slings (besides in species where males are uncommon and therefore in demand), rather than wait until they get a sexed/mature female to purchase more slings to attempt getting a male for breeding purposes. Otherwise you may be waiting several extra years for the male to mature depending on the species.

 

[Frogdaddy]

http://www.blackjungleterrariumsupply.com/Chances-or-purchasing-a-sexed-pair-chart_ep_111.html

I got that information from threads on this forum.
I've attached a link for the probability chart, just substitute frogs for spiders.

 

[Arachnophoric]

http://www.blackjungleterrariumsupply.com/Chances-or-purchasing-a-sexed-pair-chart_ep_111.html

I got that information from threads on this forum.
I've attached a link for the probability chart, just substitute frogs for spiders.

Frogs =/= Tarantulas. so that chart doesn't apply under these circumstances.

I'll add in that a majority of my unsexed specimens have turned out female thus far, across 40+ previously unsexed slings and many different species, while other people do see more males out of unsexed slings. But again, it's usually not that the odds are in favor of males, just a roll of the dice.

 

[moricollins]

A quick search for the word ratio brought up a number of useful threads:
https://arachnoboards.com/threads/out-of-5-slings-4-appear-to-be-male.323087/#post-2962802

https://arachnoboards.com/threads/should-i-get-one.314552/#post-2875116

I used to always buy in multiples, usually 4-6 at a time to maximize chances of getting a female.

Additionally, if the point is to get a breeding group, the males will mature much quicker than the females

 

[Frogdaddy]

Frogs =/= Tarantulas. so that chart doesn't apply under these circumstances.

That chat absolutely applies wether you're dealing with frogs, spiders, fish, cows, or humans. The more specimens you have the greater likelihood of getting one of the opposite sex.
So I guess the best plan would be to purchase 4-8 specimens to make sure you get a female and as they mature but before fully mature aquire another 4-8 to make sure you get a male that would be mature at approximately the same time.

 

[Arachnophoric]

That chat absolutely applies wether you're dealing with frogs, spiders, fish, cows, or humans. The more specimens you have the greater likelihood of getting one of the opposite sex.
So I guess the best plan would be to purchase 4-8 specimens to make sure you get a female and as they mature but before fully mature aquire another 4-8 to make sure you get a male that would be mature at approximately the same time.

I meant that as in if frogs favor being male, tarantulas do not necessarily follow that trend. Obviously when buying unsexed specimens, the more you buy the better your chances of getting 1 of each sex - that's just simple statistics.

I still think you're better off buying a group unsexed for a female, then once that female matures seeking out a penultimate/mature male. You should be able to locate one that's only marginally more expensive than a single unsexed sling if even that, unless you're dealing with a very uncommon species that'd prove difficult to find a MM. Saves you some money and time, but I suppose if you're inclined to you can do things the way you described, acquiring both a male and female via unsexed slings, and just sell off extra males/females sexed to maybe turn a little profit on the surplus. However you decide to do that is ultimately up to you.

You'd have no guarantee on exactly when the male would mature, as it varies species to species and the conditions they're raised under. You can get ballpark/average estimates though.

 

[Vanessa]

If you really, REALLY, want a female - buy a minimum of four spiderlings. Even then, you are NOT guaranteed to get a female. I've purchased four spiderlings and all of them ended up male... more than once.
If you're talking about breeding siblings - good luck with that. Once you determine the sexes of your spiderlings, it is too late to start adjusting their food and temperature. You're too late to make that much of a difference. You might get lucky that one of your females ends up growing faster, or one of your males is a slow grower, but you're likely not going to be able to breed those siblings. There is this mindset that we can have some sort of huge control over their growth rates and that is just not the case. Sure, you can have some control, but it is not as much as people believe and there are no guarantees that you are going to see any growth differences at all.
You buy your four and hopefully you get a female. You trade/sell the males. Then you wait until there is another egg sac available and you buy some more, or you rely on people local to you to buy up a bunch that might end up male later on that you can do deals with. I'm fortunate enough that I live in a big city, full of tarantula people, so I will buy one or two spiderlings (hoping that I get a male for my female) and then go to plan B (hope that other spider peeps in my area end up with males).
I have lucked out in the past. I have been able to breed sac mates, but it was just blind luck that the males were slow growers. One example of that is my Grammostola grossa pair. Even though they are sac mates, my female is over 4" and my male isn't even 3" yet. He is a very slow grower for some reason. I never thought I would be able to breed them together, but as time went on and my female just sprouted all over the place, I started to get more optimistic about pairing them. I am almost certain I will be able to at one point.
My other lucking out came with my Bonnetina sp. Chamela. My females have sprouted as well, both are confirmed mature, and my male is still not mature.

 

[Frogdaddy]

@Vanessa thank you for your insight.
After thinking about it I think the best plan would be to raise a group of slings to ensure you have a female and then find someone with the MM you're looking for.
You're lucky living in a big city. I grew up and lived missy of my adult life in the Chicago area. There were many expos to attend and I only lived 15 minutes from the NARBC show in Tinley Park. Currently I live in Birmingham, Alabama (the armpit of the free world) and the nearest spider enthusiast I have found is about a 4 hour drive away. So the chances of selling off excess males is slim. However I could see selling off younger excess males could help offset the cost of purchasing a MM.
Plus obtaining a MM from a different source as your sling would supply some genetic diversity in the offspring. I know that with dart frogs we always preferred to not breed siblings together and instead pair unrelated bloodlines.
Is the any stigma or effort associated with unrelated bloodlines within the Arachno hobby?
Perhaps so many wild specimens are still imported that it doesn't matter. I have always been a proponent of captive breeding to relieve the stress on relying on so many wild imports.
What's the general attitude of the hobby on wild imports vs captive breeding?

 

[Vanessa]

@Vanessa thank you for your insight.
After thinking about it I think the best plan would be to raise a group of slings to ensure you have a female and then find someone with the MM you're looking for.
Is the any stigma or effort associated with unrelated bloodlines within the Arachno hobby?
Perhaps so many wild specimens are still imported that it doesn't matter. I have always been a proponent of captive breeding to relieve the stress on relying on so many wild imports.
What's the general attitude of the hobby on wild imports vs captive breeding?

There is no stigma attached to breeding relations once, or maybe even twice, but people have reported higher mortality rates with egg sacs on the third generation of inbreeding. Inbreeding once is not going to have that much of an impact, but I would then look outside of that pairing for future pairings, personally.
Some people seek out wild caught individuals. I'm against it and I would say that most people are... especially where populations are struggling and the vast majority are struggling.
However, people are breeding tarantulas with zero experience who have no clue about different locales and keeping them separated. And, I get the distinct impression that they don't really care, either. There are hobbyists who are breeding with barely any keeping experience, they do not do their due diligence in ensuring that they are breeding the same species/locale, and we have a large amount of species who have been hybridized throughout the years. That is the number one contributing factor to species still being poached from the wild - despite them already being in captivity.
Make sure that you know the market in your area. Make sure you understand different locales and keep them separate. Make sure that you are breeding the correct species together. Make sure that you aren't just going to flood the market with thousands of unwanted spiderlings when there is zero demand and you have very little avenue to distribute. Understand that you have to spend money on more desirable species in order to make money. Understand that there is nobody getting rich off selling tarantulas - regardless of the species.
Basically do your homework.

 

[Frogdaddy]

There is no stigma attached to breeding relations once, or maybe even twice, but people have reported higher mortality rates with egg sacs on the third generation of inbreeding. Inbreeding once is not going to have that much of an impact, but I would then look outside of that pairing for future pairings, personally.
Some people seek out wild caught individuals. I'm against it and I would say that most people are... especially where populations are struggling and the vast majority are struggling.
However, people are breeding tarantulas with zero experience who have no clue about different locales and keeping them separated. And, I get the distinct impression that they don't really care, either. There are hobbyists who are breeding with barely any keeping experience, they do not do their due diligence in ensuring that they are breeding the same species/locale, and we have a large amount of species who have been hybridized throughout the years. That is the number one contributing factor to species still being poached from the wild - despite them already being in captivity.
Make sure that you know the market in your area. Make sure you understand different locales and keep them separate. Make sure that you are breeding the correct species together. Make sure that you aren't just going to flood the market with thousands of unwanted spiderlings when there is zero demand and you have very little avenue to distribute. Understand that you have to spend money on more desirable species in order to make money. Make sure that you understand that there is nobody getting rich off selling tarantulas - despite the species.
Basically do your homework.

I'm very used to all these concepts. In the dart frog community hybrids or crossbreeds from different locales are very frowned upon and people have been ostracized for encouraging or participating in those practices. There may be one species of frog that has 10 or 15 different locales and all should be kept and bred separately.
I'm glad to see this is the case with T's as ball pythons and most snakes in general have become horrible aberrations of what they once were in the wild. How as humans do we even think we could do better than what mother nature has created.
I've been around the block a few times. Enough to know I'm not going to get rich, or even make a reasonable living breeding T's, frogs, fish or whatever it may be. If I ever do get into breeding T's it would simply be for the experience and to provide captive bred animals in hopes that less animals would have to be taken from their wild homes.