Scientific answers to cross breeding questions

[MicahHall]

I was skimming past and present threads and came across one about cross breeding. The thread itself was interesting with the variance in opinions. I have no opinion on the cross breeding itself, I do have a more general question about the potential for natural cross breeding. Dogs, cats, humans, birds, horses.. all can cross breed with others of the same species. Can spiders do it, or will they do it on there own? What would the limitations be?
Now, I am not a scientist in any way, shape, or form, but this has really given me pause and I would like some answers. If you have any ideas feel free to post them, but please only post if your ideas can be backed up with facts. I dont want a thread that becomes an argument about the rights and wrongs from a moral standpoint, just scientific fact please!! AND.. since I have already stated that I was reading past threads, please dont put any links in for past threads on the board- if those threads gave me the answers I was looking for, I wouldnt have posted this.

 

[Whiskeypunk]

I was skimming past and present threads and came across one about cross breeding. The thread itself was interesting with the variance in opinions. I have no opinion on the cross breeding itself, I do have a more general question about the potential for natural cross breeding. Dogs, cats, humans, birds, horses.. all can cross breed with others of the same species. Can spiders do it, or will they do it on there own? What would the limitations be?

I think you don't quite understand terms being used. When a dog breeder uses terms such as "cross-breeding" they mean crossing a breed such as Rottweiler with Doberman Pincher WITHIN the same species. When Tarantula hobbyists refer to "cross-breeding" we usually refer to cross breeding DIFFERENT species, which is frowned upon for many reasons listed in previous threads. No one cares if you cross breed say red phase G. Rosea with normal G. Rosea as they are the SAME species, just different colors. You simply end up with some red phase slings and some normal slings.

I believe it is perfectly legitimate to breed seperate color morphs WITHIN a species.

A Maine Coon house cat is the same species of cat as a common alley cat. A Doberman Pincher is the same species as a Rottweiler. G. Rosea and G. Pulchra are different species. So are a horse and a donkey. Crossbreeding a horse and a donkey gives you a sterile creature called a Mule.

The problem is people usually aren't cross breeding between the same species, they are crossing to different species of tarantula. This either makes it difficult for us in the pet trade to determine exactly what it is, or it might create a sterile hybrid. I say might because I haven't looked deep enough in the evidence to know for sure.

Some links found searching another forum

 

[TheDarkFinder]

Crossbreeding a horse and a donkey gives you a sterile creature called a Mule.

I will make you a bet, I can list 5 hybrid species that are fertile for every one you can list that is not fertile.

And it is semisterile creature called a mule. Not sterile.

Funny thing gentics. A whole lot of things can happen given the large amount of genes.

We need to clear up the concept of a species real quick.
We will deal with only
Typological species
Morphological species
Mate-recognition species
Phylogenetic / Evolutionary / Darwinian species
Microspecies

We are not going to do biological defination species. Since this is broken the minute humans get into it.

As for the question, alot of hybrids are in europe and some in canada.
thedarkfinder

PS This is a trap, there are alot of species that will produce fertile hybrids. In fact infertle hybrids from mate-recognition species are very rare.
Include the what diffention of species you are using. This makes it harder for me. I could argue that a B. vagans from florida is a typological species from a B. vagans from southern mexico.

 

[MicahHall]

I think you don't quite understand terms being used. When a dog breeder uses terms such as "cross-breeding" they mean crossing a breed such as Rottweiler with Doberman Pincher WITHIN the same species. When Tarantula hobbyists refer to "cross-breeding" we usually refer to cross breeding DIFFERENT species, which is frowned upon for many reasons listed in previous threads. No one cares if you cross breed say red phase G. Rosea with normal G. Rosea as they are the SAME species, just different colors. You simply end up with some red phase slings and some normal slings.

I believe it is perfectly legitimate to breed seperate color morphs WITHIN a species.

A Maine Coon house cat is the same species of cat as a common alley cat. A Doberman Pincher is the same species as a Rottweiler. G. Rosea and G. Pulchra are different species. So are a horse and a donkey. Crossbreeding a horse and a donkey gives you a sterile creature called a Mule.

The problem is people usually aren't cross breeding between the same species, they are crossing to different species of tarantula. This either makes it difficult for us in the pet trade to determine exactly what it is, or it might create a sterile hybrid. I say might because I haven't looked deep enough in the evidence to know for sure.

Some links found searching another forum

As a person who has been involved in the breeding of horses and dogs for the better part of my life, I am well aware of what cross breeding with them is and isnt. Im not talking about breeding a shepherd to a lab, Im talking about two very different animals reproducing on there own.
Again, I wasnt asking for a moral opinion, and you totally missed the basis of my request for answers and information. In dog terms, breeding the two color phases isnt cross breeding, thats like breeding two different color labs and calling it cross breeding. Or me producing children with my husband who has a different hair color. Totally apples and oranges here.
You brought up a mule.. where is your answer as to why its sterile? I am well aware of the facade, what I want is a mental picture of whats underneath. I didnt ask about breeding for color. I asked about cross breeding. I didnt ask about selling it in the pet trade. I asked if it could happen.If its going to produce sterile offspring then WHY is it going to produce sterile offspring. The answers you gave although Im sure where meant to be well meaning, were exactly what I wasnt looking for. Feel free to reread what I typed and see if you can answer the questions that you brought up. THOSE are the answers I want, not more questions for answers.

Kerry Hall

 

[elyanalyous]

FYI a mule is sterile/semisterile because of one simple reason, a horse has a certain number of chromosomes and a donkey has a different number of chromosomes. when the sperm and egg are formed the chromosome's of a species DNA is cut in half, and in the case of the mule you get an odd number when you put the DNA back together in the Zygote...this is due to the homologous pairs in mitosis/meiosis that make the mule semisterile

BUT if you were to find a fertile male and a fertile female mule and allow them to mate you would get a offspring that would be fertile in its own right because the odd numbers of chromosomes would add up...

not that you wanted to know this tho:}

but i don't see why it wouldn't work with tarantula's as well, i mean thier DNA goes through the same genetic process as everyone and everything else on this planet (including bacteria)

NOTE: try going to a highschool biology teacher and get them to explain how the cells divide in meiosis and they will do a better job at explaining it then i did tho...keep in mind that i took Biology last year and this is all i can remember on the genetics portion of it and i'm just a university student (but i double checked this all in my text before i hit the reply buttom

 

[TheDarkFinder]

You brought up a mule.. where is your answer as to why its sterile? I am well aware of the facade, what I want is a mental picture of whats underneath.
Kerry Hall

Chromosomes. Horse has 64. Donkey has 62. The offspring has 63. 63 can not divide evenly. Therefore there will be a odd number of chromosomes. So the zygote will not form.

Sometimes the mixing of 64 and 62 produces a offspring with 64 or 62. This offspring can reproduce but their maybe problems.
thedarkfinder

 

[Whiskeypunk]

You brought up a mule.. where is your answer as to why its sterile? I am well aware of the facade, what I want is a mental picture of whats underneath. I didnt ask about breeding for color. I asked about cross breeding. I didnt ask about selling it in the pet trade. I asked if it could happen.If its going to produce sterile offspring then WHY is it going to produce sterile offspring. The answers you gave although Im sure where meant to be well meaning, were exactly what I wasnt looking for. Feel free to reread what I typed and see if you can answer the questions that you brought up. THOSE are the answers I want, not more questions for answers.

Kerry Hall

Sorry, I thought you were looking for information on the practical/scientific reasons why we don't do it. Now I understand what you were looking for.

 

[elyanalyous]

Thanks DarkFInder for putting in the numbers to what i was trying to explain...for the life of me i couldn't remember the numbers even tho i had to learn them last year (it was even on the exam:wall: )

as to if a spider would do this voluntarily they *might* so it on thier own *if* there is no others of the same species around...after all the point to any animals life is to eat, sleep, mate ... ah i wish i was an animal some times ... and the hybrid babyies might have some problems too .as do the ones from crossing a white tailed deer and a mule deer...which BTW does happen in the wild here in canada..when i can find my reference disk to my bio text from last year i'll email u the info on this

 

[Nate]

I’m not a genetics expert so you’ll have to excuse me.

It is no different then the current state of dog breeds. The current selection of species isn’t 100% what nature started with. Man had more involvement with it then nature. I *think* most of the current tarantula species we have are from natural selection and crossbreeding then man imposing breeding which of course is changing as the hobby grows.

Another imposing force is Genetic Drift (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genetic-drift.html) which many hobbyist breeders may over look which cannot be simply avoided by number crunching and a punnet square. Setting up rodent breeding colonies for work this is an issue we have always had to deal with regardless if we are breeding hybrid rodents or not. Only way to minimize it is to start a brand new colony from an unrelated source, maintain a generation cap (11 generations is *our* max) and PCR analysis for every individual prior to any pairing.

The analysis equipment is becoming affordable and many breeders are having access to an untapped resource that only the scientific community had access to. This can be negative and positive at the same time. Sure, dog breeders could start to correct illness they start to begin with such as hip dysplasia but they can also take breeding for physical appearance to entire new level weakening breeds even further. As the tarantula hobby grows and wild supply dwindles I see the same fate for tarantulas (and exotic animals in general).

So back to your question, yes they did but you haven’t seen anything yet until we get a hold of it further and screw it all up.

 

[Longbord1]

i had seen it a while ago but i recall someone crossbreeding p cambridgei
and p irminia
.
the slings looked awesome! im all for crossbreeding but if you do it, do not pollute the hobby

 

[Drachenjager]

Has anyone ever looked at the species of aphonoplema "species" in Texas?
Lets see, just from memory there is the moderatum and texense which if i remember correctlt are now considered the same thing and name ceing changed or settled on A. texense then there is hentzi, anax, clarki . Several people i have talked to believe that many of the aphonoplema in the US are actually color morphs instead of real species . Some of these species ranges overlap and i would bet that the problems wiht Id of them is partly due to crossbreeding if they are really differant to begin with. And if i am not mistaken, ( been ages since studying the family, genus , species thing) but id say that all aphonoplema are the same species and maybe diff subspecies like a doberman is a canine just like a wolf ( Canis familiaris - Canis lupus) these can cross breed and have perfectly viable offspring ...of course thats where Canis familiaris came from

so to answer the question i believe was asked , YEs i believe its possible and probable its is being done. My problem with it is if i want a T. blondi I want a T. blondi not a T.blondi A. seemani cross ( not even sure thats possible I seriously doubt it)

 

[TheDarkFinder]

I’m not a genetics expert so you’ll have to excuse me.

It is no different then the current state of dog breeds. The current selection of species isn’t 100% what nature started with. Man had more involvement with it then nature. I *think* most of the current tarantula species we have are from natural selection and crossbreeding then man imposing breeding which of course is changing as the hobby grows.

Another imposing force is Genetic Drift (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/genetic-drift.html) which many hobbyist breeders may over look which cannot be simply avoided by number crunching and a punnet square. Setting up rodent breeding colonies for work this is an issue we have always had to deal with regardless if we are breeding hybrid rodents or not. Only way to minimize it is to start a brand new colony from an unrelated source, maintain a generation cap (11 generations is *our* max) and PCR analysis for every individual prior to any pairing.

The analysis equipment is becoming affordable and many breeders are having access to an untapped resource that only the scientific community had access to. This can be negative and positive at the same time. Sure, dog breeders could start to correct illness they start to begin with such as hip dysplasia but they can also take breeding for physical appearance to entire new level weakening breeds even further. As the tarantula hobby grows and wild supply dwindles I see the same fate for tarantulas (and exotic animals in general).

So back to your question, yes they did but you haven’t seen anything yet until we get a hold of it further and screw it all up.

I do not know what to say, are you sure you posted in the right thread. It is a good read but what does dogs have to do with this. We are not talking about inbreeding. We are talking about crossbreeding. I do not get it. sorry.
are you saying we can make new breeds of tarantula by crossbreeding?
Simply what are you saying.

to longbord1
no, no, and no
hybrids do not have a place in this hobby. They can not be allowed. There is no choice.
The reason I fight this fight is that we need to do gentic profiling, complete phyical descriptions, and complete understanding of what the species are now.

Most people like to plug their ears and scream lalalalalalalala inorder not to think about it. If we can conclude that it can happen the we can take the precautions againts it. No one wants to live accross from the fire station until there is a fire.

This and inbreeding are the two biggest problems in this hobby. If people are allowed to profit and are encourged to to these practices then they will do it.

People will try to make the largest amount of profit or the littlest cost. If this means that they will mate two different species or siblings, they will.

END OF RANT

Any one that sales hybids tarantulas needs to be banned until we can get a hold of the orginal species.
thedarkfinder

 

[Nate]

I do not know what to say, are you sure you posted in the right thread. It is a good read but what does dogs have to do with this. We are not talking about inbreeding. We are talking about crossbreeding. I do not get it. sorry.
are you saying we can make new breeds of tarantula by crossbreeding?
Simply what are you saying.

I am talking about crossbreeding. I’m using the legacy of canine breeding to further explain my point. New breeds of dogs were created through thousands and thousands of years from selective crossbreeding by man. Yes you can crossbreed and no it’s not good. Same applies for Tarantulas but we haven’t had our hands on their genetic fate as long as we have with canines.