Sand?

[ph0bia]

Sand is sharper, so the rolling incurred on impact would graze your knees as a human (but not a T) but works much better as a shock absorber than garden soil does. Scraped knees or broken knees... But we're headed off-topic here...

I think Texas Blonde has the answer perfect. Sand and clay or sand and peat is your best bet - a mix over 100% sand.

 

[Lucille]

I wasn't planning to use sand at all, the thread was just bcause I was curious because so few chose it as a substrate in the substrate thread.

 

[Lucille]

Sand is sharper, so the rolling incurred on impact would graze your knees as a human (but not a T) but works much better as a shock absorber than garden soil does..

Nice try, but, no.

 

[Stan Schultz]

... Some claim that spiders could accidentally eat the sand and this could cause problems. This is not an issue either as the amount that could possibly be ingested is too small to cause an issue, it just passes through...

Actually, spiders use a palate plate to filter out all particulate matter from their food. They sip only the fluids. Any solids (we presume) are spit back out, including sand.

... The debate over vermiculite is different as Ts are unlikely to encounter vermiculite in the wild.

For more than a decade vermiculite was the favorite substrate. Enthusiasts kept their babies on it literally from the moment they emerged from the eggsac until they were full grown adults.

There were two major complaints about it.

1. It was too loose and fluffy. It never packed into a solid surface. The result was that many, if not most, tarantulas hated it, hanging from the cage walls or sitting on top of ornaments and decorations for weeks before they'd come down to the floor. Even then, they spin a heavy layer of silk over it so they didn't actually have to come into direct contact with it. When used with babies, the babies would try to dig burrows in it, but the burrows would constantly collapse.

2. Vermiculite is almost the exact same color as baby tarantulas and mites. In a baby's bottle you'd have trouble finding the tarantula among the vermiculite grains, so you could spend hours in a large collection trying to make sure nobody'd died. In larger tarantulas' cages the vermiculite concealed a mite infestation until you either noticed a bizarre behavior by the tarantula or actually saw them crawling on decorations or the spider!

It is important to note, however, that vermiculite per se wasn't necessarily a bad substrate. It's just that better ones were already available or became available.

There are still a fair number of people who use it, at least as part of a mixture. I've never been able to quite understand the practice of mixing it because the end result is generally that the mixture inherits all the bad properties of both ingredients. It remains loose and fluffy and the tarantulas still don't like it very much, it's still dark colored and the tarantulas don't show up as well, and (according to some) it still supports a mite infestation like peat or coconut husk if kept damp. Lastly, now you need to maintain a supply of two or more substrates to mix together instead of just one. This wastes valuable space. money and effort. But, it's your money, time, and effort to waste so I shouldn't be too critical, right? Right!

 

[LeilaNami]

I don't like sand as a substrate nor do I recommend it. For one, you don't see Ts out in straight desert sand (as was stated before). A mixture would be fine but not straight sand. Second, sand is very giving so the can T sink into it very easily, not to mention it is very heavy (also stated). If the T did decide to burrow (obligate or not is irrelevant), the risk of an injured T if the burrow was to collapse is higher than if a lighter substrate such as soil is used. There are ways to use sand safely but come on. How many people in this hobby are going to be responsible enough to do it? IMO, the educated are the minority.

 

[lmramsey89]

I've just always heard that sand could injure a freshly molted T by being so abrasive...

Dunno if that's right, but I personally wouldn't take that chance...
Not much better than wood chips in my opinion.

 

[stevetastic]

If you're really worried, get something like Bone-Aid Calci-sand that's even safer.

Calci-sand is bad for all animals and should just be taken off the market. You should NOT use it for anything!

The debate over vermiculite is different as Ts are unlikely to encounter vermiculite in the wild.

Nor are they likely to encounter 5.5 gallon tanks, water dishes, screen or acrylic lids, etc. No matter how much you would like it your T's enclosure will never bee the same as its wild habitat. its best to just take good care of your animals than worry about what its tank looks like.

 

[lmramsey89]

True. It's been posted many times that there is a correlation between excess calcium in the Ts diet and bad molts. Not saying it will definitely eat the calci-sand but why risk it?

 

[stevetastic]

True. It's been posted many times that there is a correlation between excess calcium in the Ts diet and bad molts. Not saying it will definitely eat the calci-sand but why risk it?

its not even just for T's as seen here
another problem with it is it sticks to anything that is wet and clumps so if it gets on you mist or the T walks in its waterdish it will just make a huge mess on your T.

Don't use calci-sand for your T's or herps!

 

[lmramsey89]

Gosh. That's horrible. Yup sticking by my "never ever ever gonna use it" thing.

 

[ph0bia]

True. It's been posted many times that there is a correlation between excess calcium in the Ts diet and bad molts. Not saying it will definitely eat the calci-sand but why risk it?

I don't use calci-sand. I use standard sand mixed in a 60/70 peat to 40/30 sand ratio. And only for those species I have that would encounter sandy substrates in the wild.

Also, as I mentioned and numerous others have said, there is no way a T would or could eat the sand. The mouth is like a filter and anything solid gets spat out. A T eats by turning its prey into soup from the inside out.

Pikia, I know that, but it's nice to have a respected expert point it all out too!

 

[ph0bia]

I've just always heard that sand could injure a freshly molted T by being so abrasive...

Dunno if that's right, but I personally wouldn't take that chance...
Not much better than wood chips in my opinion.

Again, I do not see the issue with wood chips as long as they are not pine or cedar. Head to a tropical rainforest or numerous other places where these Ts live naturally and look at the floor.

Am I the only one who sees that "emulation of the natural environment is what will make the T happiest"? Surely if it lives on a 70/30 mix of clay and sand, then that's the best substrate to use? If it's burrowed under soil that has bark chips in it then surely bark chips are fine? If these things were big issues to tarantulas, they would not thrive in areas with those conditions.

Nor are they likely to encounter 5.5 gallon tanks, water dishes, screen or acrylic lids, etc. No matter how much you would like it your T's enclosure will never bee the same as its wild habitat. its best to just take good care of your animals than worry about what its tank looks like.

I'm not one bit worried about what its tank "looks like", my concern is the Ts wellbeing. I will harp on about this until my fingers bleed from typing it, it seems... "If you emulate the natural environment that the T is from naturally, then the T will thrive". Check my signature, Aristotle believed it, even ExoTerra say:

"A proper environment and diet is absolutely essential to the overall health of any animal. The habitat that you provide needs to emulate their natural environmental conditions for their well being and to make them feel comfortable."

(Source)​

These are the conditions under which they live, these are the conditions under which they thrive, therefore we can assume these are the conditions that nature built them for.

It's what I say every time someone says "Is this appropriate substrate for this T? Is this enclosure okay?". If it's anything like where they're from, they'll love it.

Hence why I don't use coco fiber, why I carefully mix my substrates and why I even provide a light for my B.smithi and B.auratum to bask under.

I respect my animals and want only the best for them. They're providing me hours of enjoyment by being in captivity, the least I can do is make them feel at home and make them as comfortable as I can.

 

[Lucille]

I respect my animals and want only the best for them.

And so do we all. The reason people bring their knowledge and experience here is to sort out what is ideal for their Ts. Not everyone arrives at the same answer, but I think your ideas have some merit. Coco fiber and peat have a lot of years of T keepers behind them, though.

 

[lmramsey89]

Notice I never once said "my way is the BEST way ever!" Just listing some things I heard that would deter me from using sand when there are much better substrates out there (IN MY OPINION). Not trying to argue, but if our Ts are thriving on something a little bit different than an absolutely identical enironment to their natural habitat, than why worry? Surely there's more than one right answer as so many people are able to keep Ts in a varied amount of environments without incident. I'm sure your Ts "love" the home you've provided them, but who's to say that's the only right way?

Really not trying to be difficult, just my 2 cents.

 

[T_DORKUS]

Am I the only one who sees that "emulation of the natural environment is what will make the T happiest"?

These are the conditions under which they live, these are the conditions under which they thrive, therefore we can assume these are the conditions that nature built them for.

It's what I say every time someone says "Is this appropriate substrate for this T? Is this enclosure okay?". If it's anything like where they're from, they'll love it.

Hence why I don't use coco fiber, why I carefully mix my substrates and why I even provide a light for my B.smithi and B.auratum to bask under.

I respect my animals and want only the best for them. They're providing me hours of enjoyment by being in captivity, the least I can do is make them feel at home and make them as comfortable as I can.

Emulating a T's natural environment is playing it safe. Nothing wrong with that. My take on this whole substrate thing is a T either likes it or it doesn't. Change it if it doesn't. Never know unless you try.

Take concrete for example. Some species will build tube webs alongside concrete bridges. But if man had not encroached upon its environment (based upon your belief i.e. concrete is not naturally occurring in its environment), you would assume it is not a suitable material for a T to live on(or beneath).

Just because a T is found in a particular substrate does not mean it will ONLY do well in that particular substrate. T's are very adaptable.
Many keepers here believe some arboreal slings are burrowers. My experience is a little different. I give my slings a choice. I drill half inch holes in cork bark. And I give them substrate to burrow if they prefer it. Most of mine (except avics and I. hirsutum) chose to reside IN the cork bark.

So use whatever floats your boat and watch the T- if it takes a long time settling in its new enclosure then try something else. Just my 2 cents.

 

[stevetastic]

Again, I do not see the issue with wood chips as long as they are not pine or cedar. Head to a tropical rainforest or numerous other places where these Ts live naturally and look at the floor.

I will harp on about this until my fingers bleed from typing it, it seems... "If you emulate the natural environment that the T is from naturally, then the T will thrive". Check my signature, Aristotle believed it, even ExoTerra say:

To an extent i agree with you. But where exactly would you go out into the wild and find wood chips? or calci-sand? both of which you recommended. i could understand leaf litter, dirt, soil, maybe in a few circumstances sand but most T's do not live on any sand. they live on dirt. dirt is much finer and holds its shape much better. Sand and wood chips are course and abrasive and not really from many T habitats.

Exo terra says that to make money.

Aristotle was not talking about captive invert care. And if he was then that quote would suggest to me that the best thing you could do for them is not take them into captivity in the first place.

These are the conditions under which they live, these are the conditions under which they thrive, therefore we can assume these are the conditions that nature built them for.

These are also the conditions to witch they sometime die from in the wild. I personally want to keep my t's well cared for and take away all factors that could be dangerous to them in the wild.

...the least I can do is make them feel at home and make them as comfortable as I can.

A t feels at home wherever is is. a CB B smithi doesn't dream of Mexico and a WC OBT doesn't miss Africa. and as for feeling comfortable as long as they have there basic care needs (food, water, hide and APPROPRIATE substrate [not calci-sand or wood chips]) they are as comfortable as a creature who doesn't understand the feeling of comfort can be.

 

[MizM]

Substrate is definitely a matter of personal preference, as is handling, prey items, etc.

As long as the substrate isn't harmful to the T, there is no reason why you shouldn't use what pleases you and your Ts.

 

[RoachGirlRen]

I don't use calci-sand. I use standard sand mixed in a 60/70 peat to 40/30 sand ratio. And only for those species I have that would encounter sandy substrates in the wild.

I believe these calci-sand comments were related to the suggestion of it as a safe substrate. The problem with calcisand isn't so much that the tarantula might consume it, but that it clumps to anything wet then hardens like concrete. This is why it shouldn't be considered a safe type of sand to use in a tarantula enclosure; if your tarantula gets water or other fluid on it then contacts the calci-sand, it will stick to the animal. I could very easily see it sticking to the fangs of a tarantula who just had a drink or meal or worse still, the soft damp body of an immediately post-molt sling. I've already seen it cling all over the chelicerae of scorpions (misguidedly) kept on it, as well as a dearth of sickly herps in veterinary practices. The stuff also absorbs moisture like you wouldn't believe so I would consider it a potential risk factor for molt problems particularly in slings. It is easy to be mislead by manufacturer's claims of product safety, so definitely don't suggest a product if you (the collective 'you,' not the ph0bic 'you') aren't familiar with its risks and benefits.

I'm also inclined to agree with others' sentiments on wood chips. Most wood you see on a forest floor is soft decaying organic matter in larger pieces, surrounded by leaf litter, organic decay, and topsoil (varying, of course, with regional temperature and rainfall). These elements help maintain humidity, whereas the dry clunky woodchips sold for pet substrate dry very readily and really do not mimic any forest floor conditions. Obviously it is owner discretion as to how interested they are in precisely mimicking natural substrates, but I can't see much use for a substrate that holds moisture poorly, can not be burrowed in efficiently, and depending on the brand often comes with sharp splinter-like pieces that could cause injury.

On which note I do think it is worth mentioning, as stevetastic just pointed out, that plenty of things in the natural environment result in injury and death (not just survival). Mold, parasites, sharp or crushing objects, predators, etc. are all found in the tarantula's natural environment and are all avoided like the plauge in captivity. There is definitely merit to being familiar with a species' natural history and mimicking conditions in the wild if they are salutary to health, but always keep in mind that our understanding of the complex relationships within ecosystems is limited and always changing. It is fine and admirable to strive mimic natural conditions based on keeper preference, but I would not so readily snub or frown upon the husbandry practices responsible for the vastly successful captive propogation of a wide range of species simply because it does not completely mimic the natural environment.

 

[MizM]

Calci-sand should not be used with ANY animal, especially the reptiles for which it is recommended. RoachGirl is right, steer clear of this stuff. It may contain calcium, but has caused countless deaths in reptiles due to impaction, and her warnings about using it with Ts are valid.

If you feel you must use sand in your enclosures, go to your local hardware store and purchase play sand. It's free of additives and does not clump.

 

[ph0bia]

(1)To an extent i agree with you. But where exactly would you go out into the wild and find wood chips?

(2)...most T's do not live on any sand. they live on dirt. dirt is much finer and holds its shape much better. Sand and wood chips are course and abrasive and not really from many T habitats...

(3)These are also the conditions to witch they sometime die from in the wild. I personally want to keep my t's well cared for and take away all factors that could be dangerous to them in the wild.

(4)...APPROPRIATE substrate [not calci-sand or wood chips]...

(1)
Step 1, Leave house and head out into any forest.
Step 2, Look down.
Right there. Branches break, trees fall and decompose. They don't decompose instantly or into a nice even pile of dirt, bits decompose faster and this creates natural woodchips. In rainforests this is even more prevalent. Rainforest, I might add, being where a lot of these Ts are from.

(2)
Actually, the vast majority of Ts either live on trees or in scrubland and near-desert conditions. The composition of substrate in these environments is 9/10 containing sand in some quantity. Even rainforests, as rain and other factors erode rocks, and when rocks erode, they create sand which falls to the soil and leaf litter and gets mixed up in it.

(3)
In the wild, a T does not die because it touches sand or bark chips. In the wild, what kills a T is parasites or predators. Your Ts are in enclosures, predators gone. You probably clean the enclosure and remove food etc, parasites gone. That is all that can be done to make a T more 'comfy'. Yes, Ts have been known to make burrows in gaps in underpasses etc, but this is more due to opportunity and poor selection of alternatives. You could live in a small space dug out beneath a tree roots, but I'm sure you'd be happier in a cave or house.

(4)
Please define 'appropriate'. I was under the impression (as the dictionary confirmed for me) that it meant "suitable or proper". This would leave me to believe that if a T lives on sandy substratum or substrate containing woodchips, these would be appropriate.


Sorry to sound like an arsehole, but I am growing tired of repeating myself.

If you feel you must use sand in your enclosures, go to your local hardware store and purchase play sand. It's free of additives and does not clump.

This is what I use and have had zero issues and feel happier knowing I'm one step closer to the T being at home.

These elements help maintain humidity, whereas the dry clunky woodchips sold for pet substrate dry very readily and really do not mimic any forest floor conditions. Obviously it is owner discretion as to how interested they are in precisely mimicking natural substrates, but I can't see much use for a substrate that holds moisture poorly, can not be burrowed in efficiently, and depending on the brand often comes with sharp splinter-like pieces that could cause injury.

I use bark-chips that are sold for playground lining, the type under childrens swings etc. It's soft, maintains moisture and has no sharp bits. It's also non-toxic to Ts.