Sand?

[Lucille]

I was reading up on substrates here and I think the most popular is peat. I saw few votes for sand and I was curious as to why it isn't good?
Is it because the spiders can't really burrow in it?

 

[ph0bia]

If the spider is a burrower that requires dry substrate sand doesn't hold well on its own, moist sand works well but not for dry-loving species. So most mix sand with soil (at least 50/50, if not a little more soil).

If you check the environments these Ts are found in (like the Chilean Rosehair) they don't live in 100% sand areas anyway, but more scrubland that's a mix of soil and sand.

 

[scar is my t]

then if it is dry it could be possible the t would suck it up into there lungs and choke. also even if it was wet as soon as its dry the burrow falls and keeping sand wet could be a problem as it doesnt hold mostiure well. i use coco fiber bricks all i do put it in hot water wait for about 10 minutes and let it dry a little for mabey 2 days

 

[ph0bia]

then if it is dry it could be possible the t would suck it up into there lungs and choke. also even if it was wet as soon as its dry the burrow falls and keeping sand wet could be a problem as it doesnt hold mostiure well. i use coco fiber bricks all i do put it in hot water wait for about 10 minutes and let it dry a little for mabey 2 days

Suck it up into their lungs? It's not possible. Tarantula book-lungs work in a similar manner to gills, it's passive, the spider does not inhale or exhale, it's diffusion. Sand cannot enter book lungs.

Some claim that spiders could accidentally eat the sand and this could cause problems. This is not an issue either as the amount that could possibly be ingested is too small to cause an issue, it just passes through. If you're really worried, get something like Bone-Aid Calci-sand that's even safer.

Frankly I think the worry of spiders ingesting sand is also a pretty silly one considering most spiders that you would use sand for come from relatively sandy environments anyway.

Again, people often quote these things with no scientific backing up, and often as a pass-down, taking the information from someone who got it from someone else who got it from a friend who just preferred not to use sand or was misinformed themselves. If you want to know if sand (or anything else) is okay, look to the spiders natural environment. If sand was an issue, these species wouldn't thrive in that area.

Emulate the natural environment and you cannot go wrong.

The debate over vermiculite is different as Ts are unlikely to encounter vermiculite in the wild.

 

[T-Harry]

I agree 100% with what ph0bia said.

The debate over vermiculite is different as Ts are unlikely to encounter vermiculite in the wild.

On this topic I'd go even farther: T's won't encounter an environment where the substrate consists of fabricated coco fiber. Therefore I refuse to use that too.
I only have soil or a mixture of soil and sand in my T cages.

 

[ph0bia]

I took a screenie of his post...

I agree 100% with what ph0bia said.

On this topic I'd go even farther: T's won't encounter an environment where the substrate consists of fabricated coco fiber. Therefore I refuse to use that too.
I only have soil or a mixture of soil and sand in my T cages.

Yay! Someone who sees the benefit or going with nature!

I do use vermiculite, but only in small quantities and in set-ups that require moister substrates. Yes, the T won't find it in a natural environment, but the vermiculite helps keep moisture that would otherwise be lost in my warm, dry room.

I'll concede also, however that my reason for not using coco fibre is not just because it's not as natural as I'd like, but also I don't like the aesthetic of it; I find that soil/sand looks more natural and must feel more natural for the spider.

 

[Draiman]

Interesting discussion. I've been given a lot of flak for using damp sand as a tarantula substrate - and for those who haven't been to the beach, sand holds burrows excellently when damp.

 

[ph0bia]

Interesting discussion. I've been given a lot of flak for using damp sand as a tarantula substrate - and for those who haven't been to the beach, sand holds burrows excellently when damp.

Yes, when damp. As I stated in my post however, most Ts people would want to use sand for are dry-loving species. Thus, moist sand holds shape, correct, but the dry lovers will hate it. They live near deserts, not oceans.

 

[Draiman]

Yes, when damp. As I stated in my post however, most Ts people would want to use sand for are dry-loving species. Thus, moist sand holds shape, correct, but the dry lovers will hate it. They live near deserts, not oceans.

What about tropical burrowing species? Is (damp) sand suitable?

 

[Lucille]

I agree 100% with what ph0bia said.


On this topic I'd go even farther: T's won't encounter an environment where the substrate consists of fabricated coco fiber. Therefore I refuse to use that too.
I only have soil or a mixture of soil and sand in my T cages.

I have heard that Ts are flexible in their living arrangements.
I was born in Texas. Due to a job my father accepted, my family moved north to snowland. I do have to say that my preference is no snow, and I've been back in Texas for over 30 years. But if my Dad needed me I'd move up in a heartbeat and I'd be just as happy.

And as far as substrates not found in nature- I have carpet and vinyl tile in my home. Natural substrate is dirt. While the kids were still living here, it did in fact seem natural some days, but that was not my preference.

I am not in any way arguing with what people are saying, merely curious. Do 'dry loving; Ts stay up on the sides of the terrarium when there is damp sand, is that how you tell their preference for substrate?

 

[calum]

I seriosly doubt a tarantula could ingest even the smallest particle of sand, a tarantulas' "mouth" is a very extensive filter, and only miniscule particles can get through. I can't remeber exactly how small, but it is very, very small.

 

[AzJohn]

I think the issue with sand has more to do with how they live than with some of the other arguements. I live in Arizona, and have had the opprotunity to see tarantulas in the wild. I have yet to see any that live in sand dunes. I have encountered many that live in rockey, sandy soil. Were they live does make a difference in what kind of home they make. When given soil they tend to dig deep holes. When given a more sandy soil they make scrapes under rocks. Now when I'm talking about sandy soil I would say it's and 60/40 mix with mostly soil. All I've been able to see in the wild are native aphonopelmas, so it may be different with other tarantulas.

John

 

[ph0bia]

What about tropical burrowing species? Is (damp) sand suitable?

When in doubt, check out their natural environment.
If they live in damp sand, yes. It's fine. For tropical burrowing though you'd have to keep the sand damp always to stop collapses and thus are begging for mould.

Try a mix of sand/peat, maybe about 40/60 or 30/70.

If it's tropical, it usually means tropical forest, which isn't that much sand. My H.albostriatum is on (and in) 30/70 sand/peat.

 

[Arachn'auQuébec]

Any species that likes it dry kept in dry sand with a water dish and a good hide will be perfectly happy IMO. For other kinds of species its just not convenient.

 

[ph0bia]

I have heard that Ts are flexible in their living arrangements.
And as far as substrates not found in nature- I have carpet and vinyl tile in my home. Natural substrate is dirt. While the kids were still living here, it did in fact seem natural some days, but that was not my preference.

I am not in any way arguing with what people are saying, merely curious. Do 'dry loving; Ts stay up on the sides of the terrarium when there is damp sand, is that how you tell their preference for substrate?

xD That's a very good argument, but humans as a species are specialists in adapting to our surroundings, and if that fails, adapting our surroundings to us.
In fact, you can counter that argument with that very statement. Our 'natural environment' these days, substrate wise, is carpet and vinyl tile in an enclosure around about the 70 F range (can be kept at that with air conditioning or spot heaters) and water kept available at all times. Throw a human into a desert or forest and you'll see what I mean

In regards to your second question, yes.

When I used to mist my G.rosea's enclosure (a long time ago now it seems!) she would head to the dry patches. Once I'd misted it all, she'd stay on the sides.

Again, it's experimental data that backs up the idea that emulation of their natural environment should be your aim (oh how I hark on about this! xD).

Any species that likes it dry kept in dry sand with a water dish and a good hide will be perfectly happy IMO. For other kinds of species its just not convenient.

As long as they're not an obligate burrower, yes =)

I seriosly doubt a tarantula could ingest even the smallest particle of sand, a tarantulas' "mouth" is a very extensive filter, and only miniscule particles can get through. I can't remeber exactly how small, but it is very, very small.

As I said, it's a stupid fear that people have and I've seen it written in Tarantula keeping guides. The same goes for the argument against vermiculite that "If a tarantula swallowed it, it would compact in their stomach, likely killing them."
Two problems with that reasoning; 1) Tarantula's don't actually 'swallow', 2) Does this keeper have cricket shaped and scented vermiculite that moves? I don't think a tarantula would ever choose to eat vermiculite and even if it did, it couldn't devour it as tarantulas feed by 'sucking' their prey dry as the venom turns them into soup.

I think the issue with sand has more to do with how they live than with some of the other arguements. I live in Arizona, and have had the opprotunity to see tarantulas in the wild. I have yet to see any that live in sand dunes. I have encountered many that live in rockey, sandy soil. Were they live does make a difference in what kind of home they make. When given soil they tend to dig deep holes. When given a more sandy soil they make scrapes under rocks. Now when I'm talking about sandy soil I would say it's and 60/40 mix with mostly soil. All I've been able to see in the wild are native aphonopelmas, so it may be different with other tarantulas.

John

Firstly, I envy that you get to see these wonderful creatures in their natural environment! I may have to move. As far as we know, none do live in sand-dunes. This is my argument against using 100% sand, it's just not natural. The tarantula will live on it, but won't be able to modify burrows easily, and, as you suggest, I'd recommend a 60/40 mix of soil/sand, if not more soil. A G.rosea which lives on the edge of a desert (but still in rocky scrublandesque areas) might be pushed to a 50/50, but I still think 60/40 is most appropriate, but then we're garbling over semantics!

 

[T-Harry]

I have heard that Ts are flexible in their living arrangements.
I was born in Texas. Due to a job my father accepted, my family moved north to snowland. I do have to say that my preference is no snow, and I've been back in Texas for over 30 years. But if my Dad needed me I'd move up in a heartbeat and I'd be just as happy.

And as far as substrates not found in nature- I have carpet and vinyl tile in my home. Natural substrate is dirt. While the kids were still living here, it did in fact seem natural some days, but that was not my preference.

I am not in any way arguing with what people are saying, merely curious. Do 'dry loving; Ts stay up on the sides of the terrarium when there is damp sand, is that how you tell their preference for substrate?

I don't think that this is a valid comparison.
First of all, humankind changed their sorroundings and way of living out of its own will. As with many lifeforms it has ever been their nature to adapt the environment to their own benefit.
T's do that that also, but in much subtler ways. Digging a burrow and putting webbing on the ground and around the burrow is changing the environment.
Humankind of course changed the environment far more than that. So for a human being living in the western hemisphere carpet and vinyl tiles are in fact a natural surrounding. It would be unnatural if you where living in a cave because that would be against the course that evolution took with us. I totally agree with phobia on that one.

Second, humankind didn't move out of a cave directly into an airconditioned brownstone. That step took hundeds of thousand of years and uncountable generations. That means that during the lifespan of an individual human being the changes in surroundings and way of living only changed to a comparatively small extend and therefore each individual could adapt to that changes very easily.

There are still tribes of human beings living in the rain forests of south America that didn't have any or only very little contact with our modern civilication. These humans are scientifically of the same species as you are, we're all Homo sapiens. They might be of a different race, but thats just as much difference as a plain G. rosea differs from a RCF, so to speak. So genetically there's almost no difference between you and one of these tribes' men.
But if you were put against your will (as in: no time to pack the necessary gear) into that jungle and one of that indios would be put to Texas, than chances are quite high that both of you would die.
You have lost the skill to hunt without modern guns as well as the knowledge of which fruit can be eaten and which not and where there can be collected outside of a super market. Your immune system is not capable of fighting against germs that live in the water that you have to drink from ponds or rivers.
The indio would have a hard time to find enough deer to live from in Houston or Dallas. He would be run over by a truck since he is not used to traffic. His immune system is not adapted to fight the insecticieds that we eat every day with our highly processed food or the fight against the health risks triggered by air pollution and so on.

So adaptiation only works within borders. Furthermore only if you adapt out of your own will chances are high than youu will actually benefit from changes.
Putting a T in a cage allready needs adaptive skills since even if you do your best the micro climate inside the cage will allmost definitely be not the same as in the naturall habitad of the T. By fording a T to live in even more different surroundigs than natural for her (e. g. using coco fiber) I think you make it harder for her to feel well.

 

[Texas Blonde]

When I kept some local Aphonopelmas, I would just go out in the country and dig up some dirt. In this area, our soil is mostly sand and clay. I totally recommend a mix like that for anyone keeping Aphonos. I believe Canth has had some great luck with using that burrower substrate mixed with sand. The important thing is to make sure its packed down as much as possible. I placed a flat bottomed metal canister into the substrate, then a board on top of that. I stood on the board to compact the substrate. And I didnt just dump the substrate in, then compact it. I did it in layers to make sure the bottom was equally packed.

An interesting note, I have found Aphonopelma sp Carlsbad Green living in sand dunes. Mostly alongside scrub oak. Presumably, the roots provide some stability.

 

[gambite]

I think sand is just too hard to work with. It is very dense, and does not hold its shape well when dry. Also, the amount of sand needed for a burrowing species would weigh a ton! Imagine trying to move around a 10g filled half-way up with sand. I think it would have to weigh at least 10-15lbs., probably closer to 20. Then, you would need to soak it with water to keep it from collapsing, and that would add even more weight.

Also, I think sand would be hard to dig in. If you have ever tried to dig a hole in the beach, you will probably have noticed that loose sand tends to flow back into the hole as it is being dug. Soil or coco, on the other hand, does not do that.

Further, sand is not as soft as soil or coco fiber, so it would provide less cushion from a fall.

 

[ph0bia]

Further, sand is not as soft as soil or coco fiber, so it would provide less cushion from a fall.

I agree completely with what you said until this point.

On the contrary, soil may feel softer, but sand (being finer) spreads the impact far better and cushions better upon landing. If you had a choice of dropping 15ft from your bedroom window into your garden, or 15ft onto a sandy beach, well, I know which I'd prefer

 

[Lucille]

I'd prefer the garden. It would cushion better. As long as there were no roses with thorns of course.