Sad Announcement

[scottyk]

1.-I know that.
2.-Like I said, when the t defecates, the bacteria are on the warm, damp paper towel in the feces, a suitable environment for the bacteria. While they continue to propagate on the feces, they can spread to the paper towel (bacteria can survive on different mediums). And then back to the tarantula when it drinks from the ICU....this is why they recommend changing paper towels often (and to prevent mold).
You could effectively treat an AIDS patient by sterilizing the room, greatly extending their life.
3.-Has an ICU proved successful against DS?
4.-No one understands DS, and there is no way to know in advance if this is the problem. WAIT, What did you just say? His t obviously had DS.

In conclusion, the warmth added by the ICU helps bacteria propagate internally. Colder temps would hinder this growth. An Icu would be more effective for a t suffering with DS if temps were cooler (55-65) and it were kept insanely clean. The only benefit of your method is hydration, which could have been contaminated by feces; unless, of course one were to disturb the t by checking on it every 5 min like you said to clean, stressing it drastically.

1- Then why are you continuing to mention sterilizing the water?

2- The bacterial infection is already there in your scenario. The warm, moist environment has been proven time and again to be of greater benefit to the tarantula, no matter how many times you choose to ignore this point. Your asserion about treating aids is ridiculous...

3 and 4- Nothing has been proved successful against DS, and there is no way to know in advance if that is the problem. Placing a sick tarantula in an ICU has been shown to improve it's chances of survival. Stop trying to change the discussion to fit your incorrect assertion that an ICU is bad. PS. If you have successfully diagnosed ds in this spider over the internet, and proven that it's bacterial, congratulations. I'll be awaiting the publication of your paper.

In conclusion, your conclusion is based on zero factual content. The ICU is not "my" method. It is a method that has been used sucessfully for years by many keepers. How many tarantulas have you cured by putting them in 65 degree wet, sterile containers?

 

[Endagr8]

1- Then why are you continuing to mention sterilizing the water?

2- The bacterial infection is already there in your scenario. The warm, moist environment has been proven time and again to be of greater benefit to the tarantula, no matter how many times you choose to ignore this point. Your asserion about treating aids is ridiculous...

3 and 4- Nothing has been proved successful against DS, and there is no way to know in advance if that is the problem. Placing a sick tarantula in an ICU has been shown to improve it's chances of survival. Stop trying to change the discussion to fit your incorrect assertion that an ICU is bad. PS. If you have successfully diagnosed ds in this spider over the internet, and proven that it's bacterial, congratulations. I'll be awaiting the publication of your paper.

In conclusion, your conclusion is based on zero factual content. The ICU is not "my" method. It is a method that has been used sucessfully for years by many keepers. How many tarantulas have you cured by putting them in 65 degree wet, sterile containers?

1. Just so you can better care for your ts if you insist on using an ICU if one were to have ds.
2. Show me examples.
Many aids patients die of pneumonia, right? You can survive without an immune system if there are no germs. Sterile=no germs
3. You said ICUs were beneficial in 2 but now you say they are not? Improving chances of survival is a success. How am i changing the Discussion? I have said ICUs are bad in treating ds from the beginning.

I said cool and dry conditions with a clean/sterile water source. I know ICUs can be extremely effective against other ailments, just not DS, if it is bacterial. Show me your "factual content" where an ICU has saved a t with ds.

 

[Nerri1029]

1. Just so you can better care for your ts if you insist on using an ICU if one were to have ds.
2. Show me examples.
Many aids patients die of pneumonia, right? You can survive without an immune system if there are no germs. Sterile=no germs
3. You said ICUs were beneficial in 2 but now you say they are not? Improving chances of survival is a success. How am i changing the Discussion? I have said ICUs are bad in treating ds from the beginning.

I said cool and dry conditions with a clean/sterile water source. I know ICUs can be extremely effective against other ailments, just not DS, if it is bacterial. Show me your "factual content" where an ICU has saved a t with ds.

BUT how would you sterilize the patient ???

You are assuming way too much based on way too little.
Cooling a T to the point where you hinder bacteria will likely harm the T as well !!

 

[IrishPolishman]

Never thought this topic of my T's death would promote such an argument.

I've worked in many scientific/research settings and think that a clean ICU is still the way to go. No matter how much arguing there is, we have no idea what the real cause of DS is. Maybe ICU's don't always work, but what the heck else are you gonna do? I would like to feed my slings sprite and vitamin C since that's what makes me feel better. The only thing we know to do is stick them in an ICU because we can't talk to them and research still needs to be done. No matter what, the success rate of a T with DS is dismal. I've heard that people have hand fed there T's back to health, but come on, who in the world has time to really do that? I have too many slings to keep an eye on, a full school and work schedule, and a LIFE. I just hope that next time I could possibly catch the ailments earlier, it seemed to set in fast. You guys can argue about temps and such, but we don't even know if it's truly bacterial. It could be from cig smoke, stuff in the water, stuff in the air, bad cricket, or environmental stress. NOBODY IS FOR SURE. I think i'm just gonna go to the invert lab at Ohio State and pick their brains for a bit. My experience however, is stuff like this, scientists and researchers just shrug their shoulders and give their opinion on what they think works but have no real answers.

 

[cheetah13mo]

I have heard of DS spreading to other Ts.

What ever D.S. is, it is NOT contageous. I've had it with a few of my T's and I never isolated them and it did not spread.

This does not rule out similarities in enclosure conditions that in my opinion are where the focus of any research needs to be.

why do people call it diskinetic "syndrome"..? i do not think it's a "syndrome".

if anything, it should be called diskinetic "symptoms".

to make an example:
it would be like saying if everytime someone got a fever, they suffered from the flu. when in reality, it doesn't mean they have the flu, as it could be any number of things that cause feverish symptoms.

someone explain this to me...

Doesn't really matter until we have something to go by to help narrow the cause down does it?

Never thought this topic of my T's death would promote such an argument.

I've worked in many scientific/research settings and think that a clean ICU is still the way to go. No matter how much arguing there is, we have no idea what the real cause of DS is. Maybe ICU's don't always work, but what the heck else are you gonna do? I would like to feed my slings sprite and vitamin C since that's what makes me feel better. The only thing we know to do is stick them in an ICU because we can't talk to them and research still needs to be done. No matter what, the success rate of a T with DS is dismal. I've heard that people have hand fed there T's back to health, but come on, who in the world has time to really do that? I have too many slings to keep an eye on, a full school and work schedule, and a LIFE. I just hope that next time I could possibly catch the ailments earlier, it seemed to set in fast. You guys can argue about temps and such, but we don't even know if it's truly bacterial. It could be from cig smoke, stuff in the water, stuff in the air, bad cricket, or environmental stress. NOBODY IS FOR SURE. I think i'm just gonna go to the invert lab at Ohio State and pick their brains for a bit. My experience however, is stuff like this, scientists and researchers just shrug their shoulders and give their opinion on what they think works but have no real answers.

This is one of my stories from another thread. Take it for what ever it's worth. Good luck.

What ever D.S. is, it is not contageous. I've had it with a few of my T's and I never isolated them and it did not spread. The D. S. symptoms developed at different times so it is a condition that the T developes and does not inherit. I had a P. scrofa sling develope it and that T is the only one that, over a few molts, made it back to full health as a mature male. All I did was increase the water avalibility in it's container and I think I caught it before it got bad. The other five died within 6 month of showing the symptoms. I, in no way shape or form, have anything to back any of this up but only with my own experieces and observations. What I've come up with is prolonged stress cause by an invirenment that is not fitting for the T or the T just didn't like and it was not changed in a timely fashion. Both, my P. scrofa and P. rufilata, were purchased when I was only 6 months into the hobby and seeing them more active was nice but now knowing they were stressed, I think, ended up costing them thier lives. I've also had a couple of mature males develope D.S. and I believe just being in captivity, not able to hunt for females, added a enormeous amount of stress to them. I also think my female G. rosea and my female A. versicolor developed D.S. because I left thier envirenments too dry with too little water to drink. Both died quite rapidly. The addition of moisture and more water initiated the desire to drink but they were both too far gone to do it. Keeping all of my arboreal T's in the same type of containers and in the same design setups, eating the same kind of food from the same boxes, drinking the same water from the same source, living on the same subsrate from the same bag and staying in the same room, under the same conditions, tells me it was their envirenmental conditions. The others never developed it because once the A. versi did, I raised the humidity level for all my arboreals so they got taken care of before anything set in. That was the only change I made and I'm sure there would have been others if I had kept them in those conditions, without any change. Each species of T has certain requirements that need to be met, just like each rosie can have a drastically different attitude (some nice, some devil spawn) so I feel it is very important to pay close attention to each individual T's behaivior and make adjustment in a timely manner to see what the T respondes well to. As I said, I never did isolate any of them and I was able to make adjustments based on this theory and I have not had a T develope D. S. in almost 16 months. There is no sience behind what I'm saying, just my own logic so take all of this just as it is, my own expirience. If anyone has any questions for me, I'll answer them the best I can because I'd love to be able to compare notes and maybe we can figure something out. I hope this helps.

 

[IrishPolishman]

Actually I read that post when I initially encountered my problem. Seems like it's more or less just a thing of chance but we must do our best to keep the T's in the proper stress free environment. I think i'm still gonna stop by the invert lab at Ohio State and see if I can drum up something that we didn't know about.

 

[scottyk]

1. Just so you can better care for your ts if you insist on using an ICU if one were to have ds.
2. Show me examples.
Many aids patients die of pneumonia, right? You can survive without an immune system if there are no germs. Sterile=no germs
3. You said ICUs were beneficial in 2 but now you say they are not? Improving chances of survival is a success. How am i changing the Discussion? I have said ICUs are bad in treating ds from the beginning.

One more try....

1- This statement has zero basis in fact...

2- I'm sure you can use the search function without my help. ICU's are also noted as being beneficial in The Tarantula Keepers Guide and almost every other good book on the subject.

3- "I have said ICU's are bad in treating ds from the beginning".

Yes, and that is exactly the statement that I and others have been trying to tell you is wrong. No one knows what causes DS, if it's bacterial, or how to diagnose it.

The ICU is still your best chance of helping a sick tarantula. The fact that nothing that has been discovered yet that will cure DS does not change that. Especially as you can't diagnose it pre, or even post mortem.

Irishpoliceman, sorry your thread got hijacked, and I'm sorry about your tarantula. My concern is the misinformation being posted will be taken as fact by the next person to search ICU.

 

[Endagr8]

BUT how would you sterilize the patient ???

You are assuming way too much based on way too little.
Cooling a T to the point where you hinder bacteria will likely harm the T as well !!

You wouldn't sterilize the patient. They would live in a sterile bubble. I'm assuming no/very few patients do this because life in a bubble would suck.

It would harm the t, but they could survive it.

 

[Endagr8]

One more try....

1- This statement has zero basis in fact...

2- I'm sure you can use the search function without my help. ICU's are also noted as being beneficial in The Tarantula Keepers Guide and almost every other good book on the subject.

3- "I have said ICU's are bad in treating ds from the beginning".

Yes, and that is exactly the statement that I and others have been trying to tell you is wrong. No one knows what causes DS, if it's bacterial, or how to diagnose it.

The ICU is still your best chance of helping a sick tarantula. The fact that nothing that has been discovered yet that will cure DS does not change that. Especially as you can't diagnose it pre, or even post mortem.

Irishpoliceman, sorry your thread got hijacked, and I'm sorry about your tarantula. My concern is the misinformation being posted will be taken as fact by the next person to search ICU.

1. whatever That was imo
2. Nope:razz: you can post some links. I've read TKG cover to cover, it never even mentions ds.
3. I was referring to you in my earlier post, buddy: you said they improved chances (for a t with ds), which would be a sign of success. I disagree. They are not effective against ds.

Everything I have said is imo. Obviously if you've openly admitted that ICUs are unsuccessful in treating ds, we need to try something other than just throwing every diskinetic tarantula into an ICU.

Irishpoliceman, I'm sorry that we've turned this into a debate. My condolences to you and your tarantula.

 

[scottyk]

1. whatever That was imo
2. Nope:razz: you can post some links. I've read TKG cover to cover, it never even mentions ds.
3. I was referring to you in my earlier post, buddy: you said they improved chances (for a t with ds), which would be a sign of success. I disagree. They are not effective against ds.

Everything I have said is imo. Obviously if you've openly admitted that ICUs are unsuccessful in treating ds, we need to try something other than just throwing every diskinetic tarantula into an ICU.

Irishpoliceman, I'm sorry that we've turned this into a debate. My condolences to you and your tarantula.

1-And therefore has no basis in fact

2-ICU's are also noted as being beneficial in The Tarantula Keepers Guide and almost every other good book on the subject. This is my quote from the last post. Where did I mention a diagnosis for DS?

3- I, and others have said that an ICU is your best bet for any sick tarantula. You are the only one pretending to know what DS is and what's best for it, no matter haw much you try to twist my words with a straw man argument.

I'm still waitng for you to explain how you diagnose ds. You must be able to if you are making recommendations as to where to "throw every diskinetic tarantula".

 

[Endagr8]

1-And therefore has no basis in fact

2-ICU's are also noted as being beneficial in The Tarantula Keepers Guide and almost every other good book on the subject. This is my quote from the last post. Where did I mention a diagnosis for DS?

3- I, and others have said that an ICU is your best bet for any sick tarantula. You are the only one pretending to know what DS is and what's best for it, no matter haw much you try to twist my words with a straw man argument.

I'm still waitng for you to explain how you diagnose ds. You must be able to if you are making recommendations as to where to "throw every diskinetic tarantula".

I have said earlier that an ICU is extremely beneficial in many cases, excluding DS (IMO).

I never said I knew what DS is, I'm just stating what I would do IF it was bacterial.

If you've ever seen a t with ds, then you can make a pretty clear diagnosis. No one can diagnose prior to symptoms. There are post-mortem sign of ds.

Straw man argument? Twisted words? You're the one who doesn't know what I'm arguing and goes off on tangents on sterile vs. clean.

We each have our own opinions. I agree to disagree.