Robc bitten by a P.regalis.

[cacoseraph]

thanks, fellas



and really, i don't *know* what is going to happen when someone gets bit... most tarantulas have venom that has almost no study done on it. and even well known medications cause unusual affects in some ppl so it quite unreasonable to think i could predict tarantula envenomations... nor do i think i have ever said i could


i am basically trying to get people to understand allergy medication is not a tarantula venom anti-agent. if people read up on stuff because of reading this before they get bit i consider my like, job done

 

[Venom]

And if I'm not mistaken anaphylaxis is not caused by any known spider venom...scorps, bees, centi's, and ants on the other hand...

Almost correct.

Anaphylaxis has never been reported from any tarantula. HOWEVER, true spiders CAN AND HAVE caused fatal anaphylaxis. Latrodectus spp. have a venom compound, alpha-latrotoxin, which is an enormous molecule, and is therefore highly visible to the immune system. This permits the body to easily recognize it as a foreign substance, and attack it, causing a histamine ( allergic ) reaction. Anaphylaxis is caused by histamine overload launched by the immune system.

Latrodectus tredecimguttatus caused a FATAL case of anaphylaxis just a few years ago, in the Balkans, killing an Albanian man. Anaphylaxis has also been caused by L. hesperus here in the states. Tarantula venom is only hypoallergenic because of it's molecular make-up being generally too small for detection by the immune system, which "looks" for proteins. Tarantula venom toxins are sub-protein in size, so they generally fly under the radar. True spider venom is protein-based, and is NOT hypo-allergenic. The larger the molecule, the greater the risk of an immune response, and some spider venoms carry large molecules ( Latrodectus in particular ).

Cacoseraph is correct-- you should NOT take allergy medications for a tarantula bite!!! Immune response to T-venom is absurdly improbable, so you will be dosing yourself up unnecessarily...and probably worsening your situation.

 

[jb7741]

comment removed.

thank you all for your points of view.

 

[BrynWilliams]

Almost correct.

This permits the body to easily recognize it as a foreign substance, and attack it, causing a histamine ( allergic ) reaction. Anaphylaxis is caused by histamine overload launched by the immune system.

Cacoseraph is correct-- you should NOT take allergy medications for a tarantula bite!!! Immune response to T-venom is absurdly improbable, so you will be dosing yourself up unnecessarily...and probably worsening your situation.

It's not really as simple as a histamine release, it is certainly a part but not the only thing, but for those wishing to read further about it check out the wiki page, it's actually relatively well written
Click Here

 

[MizM]

When I got tagged by P. murinus, I went to urgent care when the pain became unbearable. I took the little offender with me, as in CA, people often go to the ER complaining of some horrible pain to get a free shot of pain meds. When I explained to them that I was bitten by an African species of tarantula, they asked me what to expect. I got shots of Benadryl, pain medication, a tetanus shot and a muscle relaxer. Evidently, Benadryl is standard for them when someone gets bitten or stung. I didn't protest, Benadryl makes me sleepy and I would have been thrilled to be able to sleep at that point. The real lifesaver however, were my husband's muscle relaxers. Some of the cramping was as painful as the bite.

 

[Neophyte]

Isn't the bite itself not too bad?

 

[MizM]

Isn't the bite itself not too bad?

The mechanical wound is not at all noticeable.

 

[cacoseraph]

according to the wiki page that Bryn says is good (and remember, she is the only one with the precious degree you all seem to care so much for (never mind i have owned ppl at work who had a number of degrees compared to my 0)) and the copy quote of the medical report i don't think the venom necessarily would have been responsible for the elevated IgE level

that elevated level was tested SIX days after the bite. the wiki on anaphylaxis says it happens within hours at most... but the wiki on IgE says it "has a unique long-lived interaction". i don't know what that means applicably (is long lived 6 hours... 6 days... or 6 months?) and the wiki on IgE is much shorter and less informative (and doesn't have Bryn's formal approval =P). and of course... i don't see anything in the report that rules out that the chicky was allergic to peanuts and had accidentily eaten a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup brownie for lunch before she went in for her followup visit

this is going to take me a while to fully digest (but hey, it took Bryn years to get her degree =P ) as i have to do quite a bit of background research. some sentences are so full of stuff i don't fully understand that they will take me days to more fully comprehend. and i doubt i will change any chowder heads opinions... they have their magic pill and are going to stick with it


as for epipens
"Tachycardia (rapid heartbeat) results from stimulation of Beta-1 adrenergic receptors of the heart increasing contractility (positive inotropic effect) and frequency (chronotropic effect) and thus cardiac output.[10] Repetitive administration of epinephrine can cause tachycardia and occasionally ventricular tachycardia with heart rates potentially reaching 240 beats per minute, which itself can be fatal. Extra doses of epinephrine can sometimes cause cardiac arrest. This is why some protocols advise intramuscular injection of very small amounts of epinephrine." (bold mine)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphylaxis#Emergency_treatment
which is what i predicted without reading it anywhere. DAMN i am smart! some tarantulas give tachycardia. epipens can give tachychardia. if both stack your ass could DIE!

 

[edesign]

Evidently, Benadryl is standard for them when someone gets bitten or stung.

I would guess this is because the large majority of bites and stings they treat are due to native species whose venom responses are fairly well documented. As a hospital they can pretty much give you what they want but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes...but better to have a mistake made in a setting where professional care is readily available than regular joe popping medications and crossing their fingers it works.

From a medical standpoint it's too bad they didn't give you each medication individually with time to check medication effect on the symptoms prior to introducing the next med...doubt that you would have wanted that given the circumstances though

Nobody has medical proof one way or the other of whether these bites are made worse by a histamine response. What we do have are bite reports on this site (and elsewhere on the 'net) indicating that some species do have medically significant venom. Are there histamine responses involved in these bites? Maybe, maybe not...nobody knows at this point. However, there is no reason to toss drugs down your hatch without knowing if they will help or even harm you in that situation. If you're not exhibiting symptoms of allergic reactions why take Benadryl (especially large doses)??? :?


Diphenhydramine HCl
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/diphenhydramine.htm

Pharmacodynamics: Diphenhydramine is a first generation antihistamine and is a H 1 receptor antagonist. Antagonism is achieved through blocking the effect of histamine more than blocking its production or release. Diphenhydramine inhibits most responses of smooth muscle to histamine and the vasoconstrictor effects of histamine. The antagonism may also produce anticholinergic effects, antiemetic effects, and significant sedative side effects.

Effects: First generation H 1 antagonists can both stimulate and depress the CNS. Stimulation results in restlessness, nervousness and inability to sleep, while depressive effects include diminished alertness, slowed reaction time and somnolence. Diphenhydramine is particularly prone to cause marked sedation. Drowsiness, reduced wakefulness, altered mood, impaired cognitive and psychomotor performance may also be observed.

Side Effect Profile: Includes agitation, anticholinergic side effects such as dry mouth, confusion, dizziness, drowsiness, fatigue, disturbed coordination, irritability, paresthesia, blurred vision, and depression. In overdose, symptoms may include excitement, ataxia, tremor, sinus tachycardia, fever, hallucination, athetosis, convulsions or seizures, hypotension, deep coma, cardiorespiratory collapse, and death. Fixed and dilated pupils are also observed. Gastrointestinal symptoms are less with diphenhydramine than with other H 1 antagonists.

Some people get "hyper" from Benadryl (diphenhydramine) but not nearly as many as it makes drowsy...at least not in the people I have known over the years. Tylenol PM makes me restless, others take it and fall right asleep...Benadryl usually knocks me out though. The question is do you really want to add the side effects of Benadryl to the effects of the venom if:

1) You don't know that it will even help and that the side effects may make it harder to keep tabs on what the venom is doing as opposed to what is being caused by the antihistamine.

2) It may complicate medical treatment if it is required soon after ingesting. How? Example: My gf has low blood pressure and after her near-emergency surgery (appendix had not ruptured yet so they waited until first thing in the morning instead of doing it late that night) a few months ago she was in a lot of pain...the docs did not want to give her any pain meds because her B.P. was low, they thought it was from the surgery meds/anesthesia but she said it's normally that low. After a long long while they finally relented and gave her something for the pain. Case in point, if your vitals are already whacky and you've ingested a drug either on your own or by professional care the doctors are probably going to make you wait it out rather than complicating the situation with more drugs.

3) Kind of goes back to #1...the Benadryl could very well exacerbate existing problems being caused by the venom such as further increasing heart rate or lowering B.P. which can lead to more serious problems if severe enough. How many keepers of potentially "hot" T's keep a blood pressure monitor around? Not very many afaik and those that do probably have it because of pre-existing issues in themselves or family members. Heart rate is pretty easy to monitor yourself...is it up because of the venom, the antihistamine, or plain old adrenaline though?

Will taking Benadryl after being bitten kill you or cause you serious detrimental harm? Probably not. Will it help? Nobody knows. Worth the risk? That's up to the person taking it but why make a bad situation potentially worse by gambling with an OTC medication?

Pain is not an indication of an allergic response but cramping (elsewhere from the bite site) and other non-localized responses can be including a sudden drop in BP. Now say you've noticed a large drop in BP and aren't feeling so good...perhaps this is an allergic reaction so you pop 50mg of Benadryl on an empty stomach(or 100mg since you think it's something severe, twice the normal adult dosage). Half an hour passes by and the Benadryl starts kicking in but now you feel even worse. Why? Possibly because the BP drop was not related to a histamine response so the antihistamine you just took is having a synergistic reaction and making your BP drop further instead of stabilizing or raising it. Now you're left wondering if you should seek professional treatment or ride it out for a few more hours and see if it goes back up when the Benadryl wears off. Who knows, you might even start freaking out a bit causing psychosomatic effects to appear...they rarely, if ever, improve a situation. That could be a long few hours, especially if your BP has dropped enough to make you light-headed (don't forget your body usually compensates for low pressure by making the heart pump faster...not good for people who are out-of-shape especially).

Was that a smart thing to do? Probably not given that it was purely a gamble (don't forget to go buy a few lottery tickets while you're at it) on what was causing the problem, direct effect of the venom or an allergic reaction to the venom? Anyone here want to make a career out of studying T venom?

 

[edesign]

...i don't think the venom necessarily would have been responsible for the elevated IgE level

that elevated level was tested SIX days after the bite. the wiki on anaphylaxis says it happens within hours at most... but the wiki on IgE says it "has a unique long-lived interaction".

I was wondering the same thing about allergic reactions after such a long period of time. As I mentioned some people have reported muscle cramps weeks and MONTHS after a severe bite's initial symptoms have run their course but are they due to an ongoing allergic reaction (my gut response is no as the venom should be broken down and excreted from the body by then) or something that the venom has done to the CNS causing semi-permanent/permanent damage? :? I'm very curious what you find out caco, please keep me/us posted!

 

[cacoseraph]

Isn't the bite itself not too bad?

The mechanical wound is not at all noticeable.

two smallish pinholes are the least of your worries when something nasty gets you, for sure!





interesting side note though... some species of centiepedes have cytotoxic components and so the site is sore and very apparent weeks after the actual bite.





oh, and if a tara with really big fangs gets you in soft tissue i could see a pretty good amount of damage happening and the mechanical damage becoming an issue... but for almost all my bites and stings the venom injector is in and out with hardly any notice at all


the WORST thing is when something lodges its venom injector(s) into you and can't free itself! then you have to be quick, careful, gentle, and forceful all at the same time... all the while something is driving more venom into you! it is a point of honor for myself that i have never noticeably hurt something when it got fangstuck in me

 

[MizM]

@ edesign: You're right, I was in no condition to protest and never felt the needles going in due to the pain from the venom!! All I requested was a muscle relaxer and pain medication, knowing from bite reports what I was in for.

@ cacoseraph: Received dry bites from Ts before and had to pinch to make sure blood came out and that I was, in fact, really bitten!! T fangs are almost as painless as a hypodermic. Agreed on removal of the fang from the skin though. When a 7' red tail tags you, it's best not to pull. If you remove the fangs gently, you will have tiny little pinholes. If you yank, shredded skin!!