RIP General Grievous

[WJHolby]

Today, I found my A. avic in a death curl. I've had her just over a year... she was the first in my collection that has now grown to 15. She only molted once in my care, but was nowhere near full grown (only ~3"DLS). It was definitely a sentimental loss... she was my daughter's favorite. I can't help but feel like I was doing something wrong, but I can't figure it out...
I'm posting this because I'd like to gain some insight as to what may have gone wrong, and what I can learn to prevent this in the future.

She was housed in a small Kritter Keeper, but set up with a juvenile arboreal in mind... a climbing "tree" decoration, a fair amount of fake plants, and a water dish. About 1" of substrate was kept moist. Temps were room temp at 72-74F.
As you know, these tanks have plenty of cross ventilation, so I never worried about mold or stagnation. I never saw any signs of mold, mites, or any other issues.

Throughout my time with her, she never seemed comfortable. Very little (if any) webbing, always on the tank side and not "hiding" among the leaves, rarely took food. Usually, I'd toss a cricket in there for a while and take it out if dead or uneaten in a few days. Once in a while I'd see a food bolus or some spider poop show up, but over time she just kept looking thinner and duller. At first I suspected premolt, but when the abdomen didn't plump up, I started to wonder.

I still didn't worry too much... most of what I read indicated I need not to worry if a spider doesn't have much appetite. I figured she'd eat when she was hungry and drink when she was thirsty. Once, I even saw her kill a cricket only to leave it hanging in some light webbing... uneaten. I removed it 2 days later when it became clear she wasn't going back for it.

So... here's what I'm wondering...
The water dish was full, but she didn't drink.
The food was offered, but she didn't eat.
The tank had anchor points but she didn't web.
The ventilation, temp, and humidity were good.
Where did I go wrong?

 

[PidderPeets]

Do you still have the enclosure set up as it was when she was still alive? If so, then posting a picture of that would help significantly.

From the information you provided, my best guess would be that the substrate was kept moist. But that really doesn't prove anything since I can't actually see the substrate. Many readily available online care sheets say Avics need high HUMIDITY (accidentally wrote "ventilation" at first. Ventilation is actually very important), but that's not really the case. High humidity can actually prove detrimental to them. If you didn't add any additional holes to the kritter keeper, it only has top ventilation, which might not allow for as much air flow as it would need if you're keeping the substrate too damp. I keep mine on dry substrate with a water bowl.

Again, that's just my best guess given the information and no pictures so I could easily be wrong. If you were to provide some pictures, but myself and more experienced keepers could provide more helpful information.

All that aside, I'm very sorry for your loss

 

[darkness975]

Today, I found my A. avic in a death curl. I've had her just over a year... she was the first in my collection that has now grown to 15. She only molted once in my care, but was nowhere near full grown (only ~3"DLS). It was definitely a sentimental loss... she was my daughter's favorite. I can't help but feel like I was doing something wrong, but I can't figure it out...
I'm posting this because I'd like to gain some insight as to what may have gone wrong, and what I can learn to prevent this in the future.

She was housed in a small Kritter Keeper, but set up with a juvenile arboreal in mind... a climbing "tree" decoration, a fair amount of fake plants, and a water dish. About 1" of substrate was kept moist. Temps were room temp at 72-74F.
As you know, these tanks have plenty of cross ventilation, so I never worried about mold or stagnation. I never saw any signs of mold, mites, or any other issues.

Throughout my time with her, she never seemed comfortable. Very little (if any) webbing, always on the tank side and not "hiding" among the leaves, rarely took food. Usually, I'd toss a cricket in there for a while and take it out if dead or uneaten in a few days. Once in a while I'd see a food bolus or some spider poop show up, but over time she just kept looking thinner and duller. At first I suspected premolt, but when the abdomen didn't plump up, I started to wonder.

I still didn't worry too much... most of what I read indicated I need not to worry if a spider doesn't have much appetite. I figured she'd eat when she was hungry and drink when she was thirsty. Once, I even saw her kill a cricket only to leave it hanging in some light webbing... uneaten. I removed it 2 days later when it became clear she wasn't going back for it.

So... here's what I'm wondering...
The water dish was full, but she didn't drink.
The food was offered, but she didn't eat.
The tank had anchor points but she didn't web.
The ventilation, temp, and humidity were good.
Where did I go wrong?

View attachment 249169

The moist substrate is a red flag. That could have definitely caused complications. They need it dry.

Do you have any images of the enclosure set up ?

Also , I noticed that you removed it from its enclosure for handling. Generally most people around here frown upon handling. I'm not bringing it up to start that debate, but rather to inquire if the spider may have come into contact with something.

 

[Vanessa]

Unfortunately, unless you have drilled holes in the sides, KK's do not provide cross ventilation. They provide top ventilation only. That is why they are not often recommended for Avicularia - even smaller individuals. The top portion of the tank dries very quickly and the bottom doesn't. The air flow from the ventilated lid does not get down to the bottom portions of the tank to sufficiently dry it out. Especially if you have fake plants throughout. That could result in a stagnant air situation in the bottom half of the enclosure and that is very detrimental to avics.
All of my avic enclosures have air holes right down the sides - starting about half an inch from the top and ending right above the substrate. That provides cross ventilation to occur right at the substrate level to avoid damp, stagnant, air pooling in the bottom. Only having top ventilation for all Avicularia is never recommended.

 

[miss moxie]

The only way to set up a kritter keeper with an arboreal in mind is to set it up on it's side so it is taller than it is wide. Cross ventilation is very important to Avicularia slings (aka side ventilation rather than top only ventilation) and the substrate should be kept mostly dry, the water dish over-filled once or twice a week.

Too much moisture in the substrate + not enough ventilation = stuffy death trap for Avicularia species unfortunately.

 

[Venom1080]

A large dealer in Canada keeps and breeds avicularia in KKs. They are 1000% fine in my opinion. Extremely high ventilation.

Please post pics of the cage.

 

[PidderPeets]

Unfortunately, unless you have drilled holes in the sides, KK's do not provide cross ventilation. They provide top ventilation only. That is why they are not often recommended for Avicularia - even smaller individuals. The top portion of the tank dries very quickly and the bottom doesn't. The air flow from the ventilated lid does not get down to the bottom portions of the tank to sufficiently dry it out. Especially if you have fake plants throughout. That could result in a stagnant air situation in the bottom half of the enclosure and that is very detrimental to avics.
All of my avic enclosures have air holes right down the sides - starting about half an inch from the top and ending right above the substrate. That provides cross ventilation to occur right at the substrate level to avoid damp, stagnant, air pooling in the bottom. Only having top ventilation for all Avicularia is never recommended.

I actually keep my MF A. avicularia in a larger kritter keeper turned on its side (although I'm debating rehousing her since her most recent molt has made her current home the tiniest bit too cramped for my liking). As long as the substrate is kept dry, it seems to provide enough ventilation from the lid on the side. But I agree that if it's kept too damp, it likely wouldn't provide enough ventilation.

Although now I think I might test this theory in an empty KK since it's piqued my interest.

 

[Vanessa]

I actually keep my MF A. avicularia in a larger kritter keeper turned on its side

It's a totally different ball game if you have rigged it to be on it's side. The airflow would get through that a lot more effectively and some people have been very successful with that setup - although I would still put holes in it, because you can never have too many holes. Even in the drier months, you can block holes to decrease evaporation, but you can't do anything with too few holes.
Air does not flow down unless forced. If you are expecting proper airflow to come from the top - you aren't going to get it unless it is artificial. Especially when it cannot pass through the enclosure.

 

[PidderPeets]

It's a totally different ball game if you have rigged it to be on it's side. The airflow would get through that a lot more effectively and some people have been very successful with that setup - although I would still put holes in it, because you can never have too many holes. Even in the drier months, you can block holes to decrease evaporation, but you can't do anything with too few holes.
Air does not flow down unless forced. If you are expecting proper airflow to come from the top - you aren't going to get it unless it is artificial. Especially when it cannot pass through the enclosure.

Fair enough. Lol. The ease of airflow going through the side vs through the top wasn't something I took into full consideration. You're right in that regard

 

[WJHolby]

Thank you all for your replies and insight. I really appreciate the willingness of other hobbyists to help prevent another unnecessary death.
Unfortunately I was not able to post any pictures of the enclosure as I'd already cleaned it out. I can say that the stuffy condition theory sounds about right, in that although there was ample top ventilation, some holes drilled along the substrate line to increase circular flow possibly would have helped.
For the most part the substrate was slightly damp; not wet or soggy... I would allow it to dry completely, then pour in some water and let it drain to the bottom like rain water. In hindsight, I did see some increase in activity on "dry days"...
As far as handling, she was only handled two or three times in the year I had her, and hadn't been handled in months prior to death... so the possibility of contaminant or injury is low.
Again I thank all of you for your help. I'll be sure to apply some of these principles as lessons learned should I attempt Avics again.

 

[PidderPeets]

Thank you all for your replies and insight. I really appreciate the willingness of other hobbyists to help prevent another unnecessary death.
Unfortunately I was not able to post any pictures of the enclosure as I'd already cleaned it out. I can say that the stuffy condition theory sounds about right, in that although there was ample top ventilation, some holes drilled along the substrate line to increase circular flow possibly would have helped.
For the most part the substrate was slightly damp; not wet or soggy... I would allow it to dry completely, then pour in some water and let it drain to the bottom like rain water. In hindsight, I did see some increase in activity on "dry days"...
As far as handling, she was only handled two or three times in the year I had her, and hadn't been handled in months prior to death... so the possibility of contaminant or injury is low.
Again I thank all of you for your help. I'll be sure to apply some of these principles as lessons learned should I attempt Avics again.

While it's a true shame you had to learn this lesson the hard way, I'm so glad you're taking to heart the advice you were given. I'm also glad you haven't been turned off of Avics and the hobby in general. This website has so much information available and such helpful members, so this is a great place to find any information you could need in regards to husbandry. I hope that one day, if/when you're ready, you'll give Avics another chance now that you have the proper knowledge of their care. There's always people on here (myself included) ready to give advice if we can and support when it's needed

 

[miss moxie]

A mistake is only pointless if you don't learn from it. You're learning from this experience and that's what matters.

 

[Trenor]

Enough ventilation is important for Avics to thrive. While I do drill holes on the side of most of my avic enclosures I've seen a lot raised with just top holes and they did good as well. As was stated earlier too much ventilation is much easier to deal with than too little. Stuff cages do kill Avices but from what I have seen where that ventilation is is less important as long as there isn't condensation building up in the enclosure.

For instance if you put all of your vents on the side down by the sub and none near the top when the temp in the enclosure rises it is more likely to build up condensation in the top of the enclosure.