Red widow can no longer spin web

[Anonymity82]

I've had two Latrodectus bishopi, one of which randomly died recently. The one that died lost a leg many months ago. Not sure what happened but there was a leg just chillin in the web. Many months later I found it dead with a fat abdomen as I keep all my widows well fed. I do, however, keep them mostly dry with weekly/bi-weekly mistings.

The sibling of the red widow who recently died has always had a pretty pathetic web going, which is surprising seeing how the one who did die already had a really nice cobweb. But recently she hasn't been able to web at all. Her abdomen is nice and shiny but she refuses to eat any crickets I leave on the web she had left. Now, the only remaining web she had left collapsed and she's just holding on to the top. Has anyone had anything like this happen to them? I'm wondering if it has anything to do with how dry I keep them, BUT I've never had this problem with L. mactans and being that their abdomens are so fat (well fed) I just don't think it has anything to do with the lack of external hydration.

To add insult to injury I also had my first brown widow die. She's about a year old and has shot out a dozen sacs. I kept her really dry too with weekly misting and a full belly. She was found randomly dead on the floor, but fat and hydrated this morning. I put her in my beetle enclosure hoping they'll eat her remains. She was from a group that I separated after about 40 or so babies were left. I've kept two of her sacs and let them mature. Basically I just let them all eat each other until there was one left and kept the two winners. Both of which are twice the size of the mother. Not sure what to make of this as I have trouble finding information on the captive care and longevity of these two species.

Thanks for any information or experiences you'd like to share in advance!


I should also mention that I got these red widows for like 10 bucks a piece which is about 15 dollars less each for the average going rate. I think he may have a stock of siblings he keeps breeding that may have been an issue as well. Of course, I don't know. I didn't ask him. Seeing how they're rare I imagine it wouldn't be easy to keep new males coming in all the time.

 

[jecraque]

Sorry for the loss of your geometricus! After a dozen sacs and really regular feedings I wouldn't be surprised if her lifespan was shortened considerably. AFAIK lifespan should be similar to mactans, 2-5 years.

Hope someone weighs in on your red widow problem. They are gorgeous spiders and I've not had that issue with any of the 3 species I keep (mactans, geometricus, variolus) but have noticed some differences in humidity requirements between the species--for some reason my variolus gets dehydrated easier than others but it's a visible opisthosomal difference, not a webbing issue. If your bishopi is still looking nice and fat, I don't know what it could be. Did you check Widowman's site for any useful info?

 

[Anonymity82]

Sorry for the loss of your geometricus! After a dozen sacs and really regular feedings I wouldn't be surprised if her lifespan was shortened considerably. AFAIK lifespan should be similar to mactans, 2-5 years.

Hope someone weighs in on your red widow problem. They are gorgeous spiders and I've not had that issue with any of the 3 species I keep (mactans, geometricus, variolus) but have noticed some differences in humidity requirements between the species--for some reason my variolus gets dehydrated easier than others but it's a visible opisthosomal difference, not a webbing issue. If your bishopi is still looking nice and fat, I don't know what it could be. Did you check Widowman's site for any useful info?

Yeah, always check his site! Maybe I should let them slim down a bit before each feeding. The first L. mactans I caught has dropped, by this point, at least 10 egg sacs. Funny thing is, she molted about 3 weeks after I brought her in the house. Maybe I'll start feeding once a month. I've never seen anything that resembles dehydration no matter how dry I keep it.

Also, she may have not been one of the strongest of her siblings being that she was so small. I have her two daughters in mini KK's but she was too small and kept her in a betta cup.

I really want a variolus and hesperus. Thought I had a variolus when I went up to NJ to visit my family. Turned out to be mactans. Still pretty cool though.

 

[Smokehound714]

Well, bishopi is a pine scrub specialist in flying insects. perhaps they require a diet of nectarivores for optimal health? or, perhaps there's a disease widows carry that reds just arent able to handle as well?

I dont really know a thing about this species, mind you. Just blind speculation.. I do want one, along with that nifty latro Josh_R found

 

[The Snark]

Asking in these boards is seeking a common ailment or condition in the entire species. Nothing wrong with that but don't discount local diseases and/or environmental issues that would be impossible to pinpoint here. Also, try to take into account compounded contributors, each trivial by itself but added together can drastically shorten an animals life span. -Minor- humidity extremes, temperature extremes, excessive feeding, singular food source, environment disturbances. Each by itself the animal could shrug off. All added together = ???
I personally suspect a large number of kept spiders are being fed WAY too much. With very active spiders that's usually acceptable but with very sedentary spiders as the latrodectus, genetically designed to go for months between feedings, it is, at the least, forcing the spider to adapt to an unusual condition and adaptation=stress=shortened life span.

 

[Smokehound714]

How good was the ventilation in her enclosure? As widows breathe with tracheae, they are susceptible to air stagnation.

ventilation on the top generally isnt enough. However keep in mind that this is a tropical species, and their natural habitat can actually be unbearably humid and hot. I bet she'd probably perk right up with some warmth and more frequent misting.

 

[Anonymity82]

Thanks for the responses.

Definitely good ventilation. Maybe I'll try to add some moss to one side of the red's KK and keep it moist.

Definitely over feeding I'm sure as they're always fat. I don't want to say humidity or temperature "extremes" as the house temperature is about 68-69 on the coldest days and about 78 for the rest of year. The humidity is low but I don't know if I would classify it as extremely low. That being said I don't have a hygrometer so who knows. I was mixing it up for a little while there when I was feeding my gecko mealworms so they got crickets and mealworms but now they just get crickets since the super worms are too large for them.

I find it weird that both red widows have struggled since I got them. Their webs were always pretty weak and the one that died recently lost its leg randomly in the web, although her web was in much better condition than my remaining red. Maybe over feeding combined with inbreeding played their part. Wish her luck!

 

[josh_r]

It could be a humidity related issue. Do you have pictures of your setups? Bishopi is a specialist species. It is only found in specific habitat with specific environmental conditions. From what I understand, these spiders require dryer conditions with high humidity and warm. In nature, they are found in sw palmetto in exposed areas amongst pine forest. These areas are raised sandy soils that avoid any flooding and dry out very rapidly. THis creates the humidity required and the exposure creates the warmth required. You will not find them anywhere else but in this particular specialized habitat because it is the only habitat with the specific requirements they need. I suggest trying to mimic this as best as you can and the best way I have found to do that is set up a vivarium with good ventilation. Give them some space to build a nice web, give them some good dreaining soil and some plants. Set up a fluorescent light on it and let it do it's thing... Kinda like a dart frog vivarium, but with much more ventilation. This will give you what you need and be very attractive.

 

[Anonymity82]

Thanks! Unfortunately, I don't have the room to set up a big enclosure for her. I will, however, add some moss and make sure to keep that on the moist side. Right now it's 69 but usually we're at 69-74 during the winter months indoors and 78 for the rest of the year. I've had these since February so almost a year. One came as an adult and the other molted once within the first week I got her. Not sure which one it was, honestly that molted.

Thanks again everyone. I will try out the moss and hope it's not too late.

The set up is just a mini KK with a few chopsticks angled in different directions with some ecoearth, maybe half an inch.

 

[josh_r]

Thanks! Unfortunately, I don't have the room to set up a big enclosure for her. I will, however, add some moss and make sure to keep that on the moist side. Right now it's 69 but usually we're at 69-74 during the winter months indoors and 78 for the rest of the year. I've had these since February so almost a year. One came as an adult and the other molted once within the first week I got her. Not sure which one it was, honestly that molted.

Thanks again everyone. I will try out the moss and hope it's not too late.

The set up is just a mini KK with a few chopsticks angled in different directions with some ecoearth, maybe half an inch.

It does not have to be a big enclosure. You can pull this off with small encosures about the size of 16 oz deli cups

 

[Smokehound714]

Thanks! Unfortunately, I don't have the room to set up a big enclosure for her. I will, however, add some moss and make sure to keep that on the moist side. Right now it's 69 but usually we're at 69-74 during the winter months indoors and 78 for the rest of the year. I've had these since February so almost a year. One came as an adult and the other molted once within the first week I got her. Not sure which one it was, honestly that molted.

Thanks again everyone. I will try out the moss and hope it's not too late.

The set up is just a mini KK with a few chopsticks angled in different directions with some ecoearth, maybe half an inch.

Right there.

Widows need a hiding place, they need to escape the light.

 

[josh_r]

Right there.

Widows need a hiding place, they need to escape the light.

they don't need to escape the light. I regularly find widow species living underneath benches or little overhands where they have spun a hide that is completely exposed to light. The very pretty species I found here in Peru regularly has incredibly exposed hides that do not hide them at all... from anything.. You can walk by and plainly see the spider.

 

[Smokehound714]

I disagree with that, because nearly every widow i collect or find is hiding deep inside a dark crevice, or under the lip of a trashcan, etc.

It could be that those exposed widows simply had nowhere else to hide, competition amongst spiders for a good hiding spot can be intense, especially considering the best spots are generally already taken..

But then again, the kritter keeper itself is already shelter, so *shrug*..

 

[josh_r]

I disagree with that, because nearly every widow i collect or find is hiding deep inside a dark crevice, or under the lip of a trashcan, etc.

It could be that those exposed widows simply had nowhere else to hide, competition amongst spiders for a good hiding spot can be intense, especially considering the best spots are generally already taken..

But then again, the kritter keeper itself is already shelter, so *shrug*..

You cannot generalize that all widows worldwide only hide in dark crevices and holes and whatnot solely because your only experiences in your area are that. I have found, many times, hesperus, mactans, and geometricus in fairly exposed situations (under a park bench) where they are very easily visible if you just look under the bench. They are exposed to the light. I have found some geometricus that have build their web hut right on the side of a wall or on a road cut where they are not actually hidden in any crack or hole or even under a lip.. Just flat out made a hide on the side of a wall... Completely exposed. I have found L. hasselti in Australia in exposed situations under benches. The widows I found here in Peru (the pretty ones) are often in very exposed situations where you can see the spider as you walk by if you look hard enough. It has nothing to do with lack of hides or over competitions for hides as there are THOUSANDS of rocks and holes everywhere for them to hide under or in. They simply just choose a more simple route. I do not know why. When you have limited experience with only one or 2 species in nature and limited to a small area, it is not good to make those general judgements based on your limited observations.

 

[Smokehound714]

fair enough.

 

[Widowman10]

some good stuff in here so far! would like to highlight a little though if i may.

Snark brought up the first thing that i thought of, which is all these minor variations adding together to create a less-than-perfect environment for getting the full lifespan out of a bishopi (which i've come to observe is slightly less than our native blacks...). josh_r explained it well (i'll get to that in a minute).

they've never been the hardiest species, requiring very specific conditions to thrive. they can be pretty picky compared to some of the other species- temps, humidity, airflow, prey, etc, etc...

josh_r said the second thing i was going to mention, which is that if you see these in the wild, they are in very specialized habitat. their range is really darn small, and they simply cannot adapt and thrive in new or different locations like the blacks or, even more so, the browns can. you can take a black from anywhere and put it in almost any condition and it'll thrive. snow, cold, warm, hot, humid, dry, no food, lots of food, water, no water, whatever- they dig it. especially hesperus (variolus can be a bit more picky mind you).

the very first bishopi i had did the same exact thing yours did. she was well-fed (very plump!) and just keeled over one day. i think there's a picture of her on my site under bishopi, i'm holding her in my hand. she looks very healthy. the very next female i had, i kept it a lot more moist (misting the web, etc), and did not feed quite as often. i paired her up successfully with a male and she produced 2 eggsacs and lived quite a bit longer. i think there's a picture or 2 i took when i introduced the male to the female.



as far as hiding from the light goes... EDIT: apparently i'm a slow typer, took me over 30 minutes! /EDIT

most widows love to build some sort of retreat. an article written by ... (would have to go look it up) diagrammed the widow web into 3 zones: retreat, sheet, droplines- each serving a purpose. you can find all this stuff under "environmentally dictated web structure" --> HERE. retreats are a very important part of the widow web, so they need someplace where they can go to "escape" whatever threat they feel like is bugging them. HOWEVER! oftentimes a widow will construct its retreat underneath or below something, which just so happens to block light. it's not a complete necessity though (blocking light) as i've seen many widows outside that are just hanging out in the open all day. many of them seem to be juveniles, but occasionally i'll find adults doing it too. and i've never seen any difference in behavior or -the best test overall- sac production from having widows out in the open with no way to block light. they produce eggsacs just as happily with or without light. i've also documented some good success with them in the "open enclosure" PIC (not mine)

interesting sidebar- you should see the dome retreats that pallidus (the white widows) build! it's insane!!

 

[Anonymity82]

Thanks for chiming in Widowman! I have since added some moss and replaced the chopsticks with plastic straws as I know they would get moldy fast. Hopefully this will help. Can't do much for the temperatures though.

Dumb me, never even thought about why they're so localized to a small area. Probably cuz they're nowhere near as hardy as the other species we have here. Wish I thought about that awhile ago, I might still have the other one. But I got nearly a year out of an adult or sub-adult (again, not sure which one died as one was an adult and the other molted once within the first week or so of having her). Hopefully, this increase in moisture will help her. I will make sure to keep this in mind as well if I'm so lucky enough to ever get anymore.

As for the lighting situation in the mini KK. They're in a hallway that doesn't get much light anyway BUT, ALL of the widows I've ever kept in these mini KK (hehe, not many, I'm thinking 7 or 8 divided into three species) built themselves webbing into the top corners where they spend most of their days. Even this red one who doesn't seem to be building webs anymore still chills out in the corners. She's also pretty good at climbing smooth plastic so I'm thinking she's able to make web bases but unable to make the string.

I will definitely start letting them slim down a bit before I feed again, especially the red widow. Thanks for all the insight and info everyone! I will try to remember to update this thread if she starts webbing again or passes.

I know nothing of spider genetics. How likely are there to be genetic problems with Latrodectus inbreeding?

 

[Smokehound714]

some good stuff in here so far! would like to highlight a little though if i may.

Snark brought up the first thing that i thought of, which is all these minor variations adding together to create a less-than-perfect environment for getting the full lifespan out of a bishopi (which i've come to observe is slightly less than our native blacks...). josh_r explained it well (i'll get to that in a minute).

they've never been the hardiest species, requiring very specific conditions to thrive. they can be pretty picky compared to some of the other species- temps, humidity, airflow, prey, etc, etc...

josh_r said the second thing i was going to mention, which is that if you see these in the wild, they are in very specialized habitat. their range is really darn small, and they simply cannot adapt and thrive in new or different locations like the blacks or, even more so, the browns can. you can take a black from anywhere and put it in almost any condition and it'll thrive. snow, cold, warm, hot, humid, dry, no food, lots of food, water, no water, whatever- they dig it. especially hesperus (variolus can be a bit more picky mind you).

the very first bishopi i had did the same exact thing yours did. she was well-fed (very plump!) and just keeled over one day. i think there's a picture of her on my site under bishopi, i'm holding her in my hand. she looks very healthy. the very next female i had, i kept it a lot more moist (misting the web, etc), and did not feed quite as often. i paired her up successfully with a male and she produced 2 eggsacs and lived quite a bit longer. i think there's a picture or 2 i took when i introduced the male to the female.



as far as hiding from the light goes... EDIT: apparently i'm a slow typer, took me over 30 minutes! /EDIT

most widows love to build some sort of retreat. an article written by ... (would have to go look it up) diagrammed the widow web into 3 zones: retreat, sheet, droplines- each serving a purpose. you can find all this stuff under "environmentally dictated web structure" --> HERE. retreats are a very important part of the widow web, so they need someplace where they can go to "escape" whatever threat they feel like is bugging them. HOWEVER! oftentimes a widow will construct its retreat underneath or below something, which just so happens to block light. it's not a complete necessity though (blocking light) as i've seen many widows outside that are just hanging out in the open all day. many of them seem to be juveniles, but occasionally i'll find adults doing it too. and i've never seen any difference in behavior or -the best test overall- sac production from having widows out in the open with no way to block light. they produce eggsacs just as happily with or without light. i've also documented some good success with them in the "open enclosure" PIC (not mine)

interesting sidebar- you should see the dome retreats that pallidus (the white widows) build! it's insane!!

I only have experience with the kind of white widow that makes me retreat into MY dome.

Lol every once in a while, while phidippus hunting, ill think i found a jumper's retreat, then i open it and it ends up being a geometricus. lol always makes me jump

 

[Widowman10]

I know nothing of spider genetics. How likely are there to be genetic problems with Latrodectus inbreeding?

from what i've heard from some of the exotic latro breeders, it can start breaking down pretty darn quickly... very noticeable after only the 3rd generation.

 

[Anonymity82]

Hmm, I wonder if that has anything to do with this as well. Another added factor maybe? I have no idea how fresh his stock was but they were dirt cheap, in other words as cheap as your average black widow. You may remember who I bought them from.