Red African Gray parrots

[bugmankeith]

These are beautiful didnt know they exist! But I still believe parrots aren't meant to be in captivity. http://redfactorafricangreys.com

 

[Stirmi]

I've seen those before, amazing what genetics can do. I've works at a parrot rescue for about 5 years and you would be surprised how well some settle into captivity, others not so much it's more the individual than parrots as a whole regardless tey are amazing animals

 

[Kazaam]

Animals in general aren't meant to be kept in captivity, that doesn't mean they can't benefit from it or enjoy it.

 

[Erebus]

Gorgeous! But I prefer the Congo African Grey.

 

[Entomancer]

Animals in general aren't meant to be kept in captivity, that doesn't mean they can't benefit from it or enjoy it.

Uh, what?

I highly doubt any animal enjoys captivity; most of the animals discussed on this forum just happen to be able to tolerate it and are small enough to be able to thrive outside a natural ecosystem. Maybe domesticated animals like dogs or cats, but that's probably all. I don't think any of them benefit from it either, with the exception of things like the amphibian ark and other captive breeding projects for endangered organisms.

Our responsibility as self-proclaimed animal keepers is to do whatever it takes to make sure that any animal we possess is taken care of such that it may thrive in our care. For things like tarantulas, this is exceedingly easy. For things like reptiles, it can be anywhere from relatively easy to very difficult.

Parrots, especially large, intelligent species, tend towards the latter. Unless you are very wealthy, I doubt that a parrot would be as well-off in captivity as it would in the wild. Actually, I think that even if you had a giant aviary, with everything the parrot could need, with a variety of of high-quality foods for it and filtered, fresh water, it would still be slightly better off in the wild (kind of like how you can never get to zero by doing 1/2). In addition, an aviary could never mimic the jungles of the Congo perfectly; if a wild parrot is removed (I know that many are captive-bred now, but this is just an example), then the ecosystem of the Congo loses a little bit of stability, which may or may not be replaced or restored based on the current human pressures.

I actually really, really like birds (used to work at a pet store, where I made friends with a jenday conure who hated everyone except for me), but birds are so much more work than things like inverts of any kind, amphibians, and most reptiles and fish. I bet that one African Gray would be as much work (hours spent per day; I have no idea how much maintenance costs would be) as a decent collection of lower-maintenance reptiles and inverts. I don't think I would be able to give up keeping herps, fish and inverts for one bird, so I probably won't ever get a parrot.

 

[Stirmi]

Parrots are very unique that way because yes they require a lot of maintenance and are a big expense, however once you develop a bond with one it is so amazing, i cant even explain it the bond is imo 10x stronger than a dog or cat. And as for enjoying captivity, we will never know as we are not the animals and cannot communicate with them, but there are benefits because in the wild only a small percentage actually make it to adulthood from fledglings, also in the wild there is no constant source of food or water they constantly have to seek it out especially in the dry season of africa and on top of constantly having to search for food and water they are on the low end of the food chain with a variety of predators constantly trying to catch them to eat them. Also 99% of parrots are cb because wild caught ones make terrible companions which is why no one wants to buy them thus leaving no market for them, cb are raised around other parrots when young to learn to act like a parrot and not a human and than when they are fully weaned they are sold typically and than form bonds with their human keepers. I love parrots and think they are the best pets for someone with time, money and experience and a LOT of patience so essentially they are not for everyone. (P.s. I own a jenday conure who is a sweetheart)

 

[Entomancer]

That's not really a benefit. Parrots aren't domesticated animals; they've adapted to deal with those things, so they would probably be indifferent. Also, people talk about "animals/organisms benefiting from ___", but in order for that to be true it has to benefit the species. Individual animals in captivity kept as pets don't benefit the species (in terms of the gene pool), and saying that an essentially wild animal benefits from human contact is ridiculous. If your parrot or anyone else's parrot was separated from them and introduced to small group of their own species, they would probably do just as well with them.

I like having animals around just as much as everyone else here, but in the end it's really just for our own benefit. It doesn't matter if it's studying the animal's behavior informally in a recreation of their natural habitat (i.e. fish), having them around because they look cool, or because they're a companion; none of those things are really benefiting the animal beyond what kind of quality of life it could have in the wild; as keepers, we can only hope to emulate that quality of life as best as possible.

Also, if they're from the Congo, the dry season probably doesn't matter much. The dry and wet seasons are only really pronounced in the drier savannah areas, I would think. The Congo basin is a sprawling, moist jungle.

 

[Stirmi]

What I meant by te dry and wet seasons were more the rest other African parrots in general, and you make good points. However I've seen parrots who have lost their owners an they go through a grieving process, they actually accept their owners(usually) as part of their flock. Benefit is not the right word to use more pros an cons

 

[The Snark]

These are beautiful didnt know they exist! But I still believe parrots aren't meant to be in captivity. http://redfactorafricangreys.com

Would you please expand/expound upon that? I'm asking because I accidentally got stuck smack in the middle of the California Condor rescue effort as a technician/neutral observer. The two camps, captive breeding vs environment protecting were vehemently at each others throats and I never did come up to speed on the issues. Maybe this, and your perspectives, might help.

 

[Kazaam]

Uh, what?

I highly doubt any animal enjoys captivity; most of the animals discussed on this forum just happen to be able to tolerate it and are small enough to be able to thrive outside a natural ecosystem. Maybe domesticated animals like dogs or cats, but that's probably all. I don't think any of them benefit from it either, with the exception of things like the amphibian ark and other captive breeding projects for endangered organisms.

That's because you're pushing your own emotions and feelings onto the animals, you're anthropomorphising them.
The vast majority of all animals doesn't even understand the concept of being in captivity, when they're under a log in some dirt it's all the same to them.

I doubt that a parrot would be as well-off in captivity as it would in the wild. Actually, I think that even if you had a giant aviary, with everything the parrot could need, with a variety of of high-quality foods for it and filtered, fresh water, it would still be slightly better off in the wild (kind of like how you can never get to zero by doing 1/2). In addition, an aviary could never mimic the jungles of the Congo perfectly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

It doesn't have to, and I hope you're not seriously implying that they're provided with 'high quality foods' and 'fresh filtered water' in the wild.

 

[The Snark]

For reference, Gerald Durrell captured hundreds of wild animals over the years, extensively documenting the medical treatments he and his staff had to perform, from emergency surgery in the field to life long therapeutic treatments. He had to become a very competent vet and surgeon in the process of his pursuits and a large number of the animals he captured would have suffered permanent debilitation or death it it hadn't been for his intervention. From combat wounds from predators or matings to parasites to amputated limbs to complex diseases, some of which had never been documented. It certainly isn't always a bed of roses for animals in the wild.
You can catch up with this yourself through reading his books, or contact the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust: http://www.durrell.org/

 

[Kazaam]

I agree that wild parrots shouldn't be kept in captivity by the way.

But the ones that are already in captivity should stay in captivty and they do perfectly fine in captivity.

 

[bugmankeith]

Would you please expand/expound upon that? I'm asking because I accidentally got stuck smack in the middle of the California Condor rescue effort as a technician/neutral observer. The two camps, captive breeding vs environment protecting were vehemently at each others throats and I never did come up to speed on the issues. Maybe this, and your perspectives, might help.

The obvious reason to start is for any parrot that was taken from the wild, some parrot populations have more in captivity than in the wild due to the pet trade this being wrong explains itself. Also the fact many die from stress and disease before they even get sold.

As for captive raised parrots, yes at least this doesn't affect wild populations and parrots are so much healthier. The biggest problem is that parrots live almost 80 years, sometimes they bite (hard) and can injure someone, if not given the best care get stressed and develop psychological issues like feather plucking and self mutilation, they make the loudest noises, and they are expert care level they need to see a vet and have a varied diet and constant attention and mental/physical stimulation. Now add the cost and time spent for that for 80 years, chances are the parrot will be in your Will when you die first.
My point is parrots are similar to monkeys, monkeys don't make great pets, neither do parrots because of the difficulty in care and lifetime. Most parrots get returned after a few years by unhappy owners, more are being bred, this results in hundreds of parrots without homes and is becoming like dogs and cats too many parrots and not enough people who can properly care for one its whole life.

I think parrots just shouldn't be bred or sold for captivity anymore for this reason, we control their population so we can stop this. Yes any now will need to be found homes but in 100 years or so parrots would be almost non existent as pets.

The only breeding I support is captive breeding to be released in the wild for parrot populations that are in danger in the wild, they already have this for scarlet macaws and survival rate is at 90% which is excellent.

 

[Kazaam]

I think parrots just shouldn't be bred or sold for captivity anymore for this reason

What you mean is, they shouldn't be commercially bred anymore.

They shouldn't be available to everyone, but there are plenty of people that are perfectly capable of giving a parrot a good life.

 

[viper69]

I've seen those before, amazing what genetics can do. I've works at a parrot rescue for about 5 years and you would be surprised how well some settle into captivity, others not so much it's more the individual than parrots as a whole regardless tey are amazing animals

Wow, that's real? They look photoshopped, those are amazing. Evidently it took the breeder in S. Africa 10 years to make. They have been around since at least 2008 from a quick net search. Selective breeding evidently, nothing based on diet.

 

[bugmankeith]

What you mean is, they shouldn't be commercially bred anymore.

They shouldn't be available to everyone, but there are plenty of people that are perfectly capable of giving a parrot a good life.

No I think they should be banned to everyone. I understand some people could give them good homes it's the people that have money but don't care for them that ruin it.

 

[Tleilaxu]

No I think they should be banned to everyone. I understand some people could give them good homes it's the people that have money but don't care for them that ruin it.

Then you have better ban EVERYTHING else as well.

Attitudes like yours I find highly offensive. You totally ignore everyone else out there who provides a good home to one or many parrots and act like it can't be done. It contributes nothing to the betterment of the hobby as a whole. Frankly your just as bad as those PETA and HSUS whackjobs.

 

[Stirmi]

No I think they should be banned to everyone. I understand some people could give them good homes it's the people that have money but don't care for them that ruin it.

just going to disprove that point quickly some of the best homes are actually latin americans who dont have a lot of money, they truly love owning parrots and will sacrifice a lot to own them and will keep them for there entire life

 

[viper69]

Does this happen on other forums too??

I've seen lately that someone will post something interesting, like these red parrots, and ultimately the threads boils down to "should humans be keeping pets/what are the animals actually enjoying" etc etc, like in this thread, like really, what the heck, so WAY off topic from the OP!

Does this happen on other forums, like the saltwater forums, or the dart frog forums too? I've never noticed this kind of discussion on such a frequent basis (as I have seen here) in the reptile forums I have visited over the past decade and more.

 

[Tleilaxu]

I've seen lately that someone will post something interesting, like these red parrots, and ultimately the threads boils down to "should humans be keeping pets/what are the animals actually enjoying" etc etc, like in this thread, like really, what the heck, so WAY off topic from the OP!

Does this happen on other forums, like the saltwater forums, or the dart frog forums too? I've never noticed this kind of discussion on such a frequent basis (as I have seen here) in the reptile forums I have visited over the past decade and more.

I think its more due to the OP, right off the bat he rants on about how they are not "meant" to be in captivity. And given the fact that PETA and HSUS nuts are becoming more and more prevelant in this day and age sadly.