Real world tarantula habitat information

[ancientscout]

I am in hopes that this new thread will produce thought and some answers for all at this forum. What i would like to see, and i am sure others would be interested in as well is some accurate information on discriptions of various trade species earthly habitats.

There is so much of this "species type" information out there. We all know that for example "desert species" requires somewhat dryer conditions than say L. Parahybana or H.Lividum..etc. What i would like to see here is accurate discriptions of the exact conditions that so and so animals come from instead of the typical discriptions such as "from Brazil. Needs high humidity." That simply is not enough information to keep such and such species in the conditions that it actually came from.

Just because most hobbyists can find out or assume that say for example A. Calcodes comes from the American southwest means dry soil, higher temps, rocks and a piece of skeletonized Choia Cactus, water bowl and we're good to go.. that could work, but it is not representive of where you actually find them there in southern Arizona. I lived at one time in Tucson, Arizona in the early 70s and was expsosed to and kept A. Calcodes while there. But new or younger people here may or may not know exactly how to keep a certain species properly. I know there are those out there that will say that substrate, water and a heat source will say that is enough..but then, so are dipears on a baby, but that is not enough to care for them properly..

I am expecting mail here that says exactly that. Thats ok too.

It would be nice to see a site that listed different species that are common to the pet trade with accurate discriptions of exactly where and what region at any given location the animal came from. Where in Brazil? or where in Africa? or whatever. Then research could be done as to the climatical conditions indiginous to that region at various times of the year.
It would not only be interesting and informative to read about but would also clear up lots of questions from those new to the trade as to more about exactly what they are keeping. That information was not available in the early to mid 70s when i started becoming interested in spiders in general.

If anyone knows of such a site or informational portal, it would be nice to provide that information here in the forum. Remember, many here have experience with various trade species but it is plain from reading here that many don't have a clue.
If you can contribute to that knowledge base for newer people coming here that might be of great help in deciding husbandry issues before deciding what to buy if you are new at this hobby.
Do you know what you're talking about?..how about letting people know here.
Ancientscout

 

[Crotalus]

I have a few species listed on my site with the localtion which they can be found. Just google and find out what temps etc
http://www.minaxtarantulas.net/arter/arter_e.html
BTW, I found chalcodes in AZ in those conditions that you mention.
And another thing, if somethings missing why not do it yourself?

 

[ancientscout]

Do it yourself..

Thats not out of the question. I was simply hoping that there was someone out there that knew of such information. I am capable of doing that research but thre are so many trade species out there with so little information that i thought i would try this route first. :wall:
Ancientscout

 

[becca81]

Although I disagree with the "diapers on a baby" analogy (the two don't even begin to make sense), I do feel that it is important to keep any spider in proper conditions to our best ability.

That being said, there is only so much that we can do in a cage. We'll never be able to recreate the natural environment 100%, but we can find out what works and create a habitat that meets the adapted needs of the spider based on its natural habitat.

I've read several good articles in both Arachnoculture and the BTS Journal that discuss natural habitats. The most recent articles I recall dealt with C. cyaneopubescens and Brachypelma spp..

I consider an enclosure/habitat "successful" if the spider thrives in it - which includes eating, appropriately active, burrowing if applicable, molting, and successfully breeding.

My suggestion is to look at where the spiders originate from and research, as Lelle said, the climate of that area to get a basic idea of how to care for whatever species it is that you're caring for.

Becca

 

[Cory Loomis]

With many species, the specifics of habitat will only be meaningful if based on very detailed personal observations. Too many microclimates exist within a given region for any of us to do more than hazard a guess. For example, while I lived in Panama, I had little interest in tarantulas, but considerable interest in orchids. Collecting those, I became very aware of microclimates and the dangers of applying rainfall tables and temperature averages. The same holds true of tarantulas. The B. emilia that you could find in the dry grasslands around Rio Hato lived in an area totally different from the triple canopy jungle where I saw B. sabulosum in Gamboa. I, too, would love to see specifics on a variety of species, but we will probably have to content ourselves with conjecture.

That being said, even if we knew more about how they live in nature, we couldn't necessarily replicate that in captivity, nor would we want to do so. B. vagans lives in a variety of habitats, some damp and some dry, but mine must content themselves with dry plus a water bowl because anything else would grow too much mold.

 

[ancientscout]

We can agree to disagree

Beca81 your view is as i have read before. Thats ok. We have disagreed before. Your concept of dirt, water, food and a place to sleep seems inline with your prior statements. Thats ok if you like to keep yours that way but there is nothing natural about dirt, water and food in a tank.

Cory Loomis, you wrote:
[Too many microclimates exist within a given region for any of us to do more than hazard a guess. For example, while I lived in Panama, I had little interest in tarantulas, but considerable interest in orchids. Collecting those, I became very aware of microclimates and the dangers of applying rainfall tables and temperature averages. The same holds true of tarantulas.]

I could not agree with your statements on microclimates. I think there is allot to be learned by knowing a more specific location that your animal came from. The statement about dipears was so obivous that there should be no comparsome here. You might like to look at some real effort to place animals in enclosures that are truly outstanding. You can see this thread:
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=54776
Gui did a very nice job. Considering that he lives in Brazil he probably did some research on habitat for the animals he keeps. He states 17 years experience keeping Tarantulas.

I feel that habitat is important and that there are those that would like to know this type of information.
Beca, do you have anything that compares? Don't worry. This is not an attack on those that disagree here, but rather to try and get those that know to come forward and share that information that goes beyond simple caresheets.

Personally, i really enjoy seeing what someone like Gui did with his vivirums to acomadate his animals. I bet they can tell the difference in their surroundings as oppossed to simple dirt. These animals in the wild eat anything they can over power and consume. They don't get a steady diet of nothing but crickets. In the wild a great variety of food items would be available to them. I do not think anything but the largest animals take things like a small mouse or bat or something and it is impossible to tell how many spiders expire in the process of trying to take small mamals. Most live on a wide variety of things. But being in Southeast Asia during the 60s i saw first hand a jungle environment. Its a wonder that any arachnid could find any food prey items in that leaf litter on the jungle floor, but one thing is for sure. They do. End of story.
I hope the new folks that come to this thread don't go away thinking that dirt, water and food is all these animals need to stay alive. Sounds like a POW to me.
Lastly, it is the great thing about this forum that we can agree or disagree. Thats what makes it interesting.
scout

 

[elliot]

I hope the new folks that come to this thread don't go away thinking that dirt, water and food is all these animals need to stay alive.

I don't have anything to back this up, but my understanding was that Ts have very limited sensory perception. They can't really see, and don't really hear, they do smell but probably just some basic stuff and some pheremones. Mostly they rely on their sense of touch. Given that, I don't think that they care too much about their environment, except that they have the essentials. That's why they do so well and live so long in captive environments, and why people can make enough time to keep dozens of them healthy.

 

[Cory Loomis]

A creature whose pumping stomach passes through the only nerve mass that could be called a brain can hardly be "happy" or "sad" about its enclosure. It will thrive or show signs of stress based on the suitability of the environment we provide, but nothing more. To anthropomorphize an arachnid and give it emotions is a bit of a stretch. Elliot's comments are on the money. And tarantulas do need more than dirt, water and food to stay alive in captivity. They need these things in the correct proportions; they need proper temperatures; they need secure enclosures; and they need to be protected from chemicals and excessive vibrations. Past that, most of what we do with them is to please ourselves rather than to meet their needs.

 

[becca81]

I'll 2nd what Cory said..

As much as you may hate it, keeping animals is cages isn't "natural." If what was currently being done wasn't working, then the hobby wouldn't be where it is now.

It's not a matter of "agreeing to disagree," it's a matter of looking at the facts that exist and coming to the best conclusion that we can about the care of these animals and doing the best job that we know how to do.

Cory was on target with the microclimates - what is happening within these microclimates can be very different than what is happening in the larger area (in the burrow, for example).

 

[elliot]

OTOH, nothing's wrong with an obsurdly fantastic tank either, as long as the spider has everything it needs. from BRZAIL's enclosures are amazing, although i can't figure out why they're so wet...

 

[becca81]

OTOH, nothing's wrong with an obsurdly fantastic tank either, as long as the spider has everything it needs. from BRZAIL's enclosures are amazing, although i can't figure out why they're so wet...

Of course there's nothing wrong with it if that's what you want to do. The decorations are for our pleasure, the spider couldn't care less. However, it doesn't need to be insinuated that it is the only/best way to do it.

 

[Nerri1029]

OK

WHY do these animals make burrows into the ground?

Why do others seek refuge in dead trees?

Why do others build web tubes amoung the fronds of a cocnut tree???

Why do we live in houses???


ALMOST EVERY creature needs protection.. from it's environment. They find or create microclimates.. to tweak their conditions..


many creatures would die if exposed to the "natural" environment on a constant basis.

These creatures only need options..

My A. seemanni burrows into the substrate in the winter months because the air is drier then... her substrate offers a higher humidity.. she webs it over to block airflow .. these SPIDERS have survived heat waves, droughts, and floods ... they can manage themselves..

OUR responsibility is to simply come close and let them do the rest..

I'm not saying YOU SHOULDN'T do what you are trying to do.. please go ahead,,

I'm offering a different view point.. one that might not stress new owners too much about "getting it JUST PERFECT"

I watch my animals.. take written notes and mental notes..
I have come to learn how they react..
even to changes caused by the seasons we have here..

 

[Ronj]

It would be impossible to create the perfect environment when nature is so imperfect itself. There are droughts and temperature changes that we cannot duplicate in our homes. Feeding patterns may change due to certain insects declining in an area, and soil conditions can not be duplicated as there is decay and microorganisms that we cannot even begin to understand.

For a minute, let’s pretend we know the exact day to day conditions of a certain species. Can you control that in your home? Can you make the changes on a day to day basis that reflect nature? What about rain and freezing weather? Are you ready to subject your tarantulas to those conditions as well?

Look at our zoo’s as an example. There are polar bears in Atlanta, lions in Ohio, and giraffes in Texas. These animals adapt and are kept in a range that they can tolerate. In fact, they actually live longer and healthier in captivity then if in the wild.

Having a range of conditions that a particular spider requires is the best that we can do for our pets! While I agree it is important to understand as much as possible regarding the conditions and locations of tarantulas, I have come to terms that a range of conditions is the best that we will ever do. I’m happy with that and will enjoy my collection instead of trying to tinker with the uncontrollable environment that my tarantulas call home... in their jungle... that use to be my spare bedroom.

 

[Amanda]

Thanks for the thread, ancientscout. I've been searching for that information too, although it doesn't look like anybody's answering the question.

I'm of the mind that these animals evolved as they did to be precisely adapted to specific habitats. The closer we can replicate these habitats, the healthier the spider will be.

On the flipside... even if a biotopic setup IS only for our pleasure as keepers, there is nothing wrong with the desire to create one. I also keep fish, and it is easy, safe, and actually more common to mix fish and tank ornamentation from all over the globe in one tank, and the fish do very well. Some people people like to make things a bit more interesting, though. I might, for example, decide to set up an Amazon River biotope, selecting the fish, substrate, rock, food, nutrient levels, and water conditions to match that ecosystem. Creating and maintaining such a setup can be incredibly satisfying. I could always put koi from Japan in a tank with an African cichlid, but that would be easy.

In 30+ years of tarantula-keeping as a hobby, nobody can argue that a healthy, happy, long-lived tarantula can't be kept in a typical setup. Some people just want to be more specific. It certainly can't hurt. The bottom line is that the information is missing in the hobby.

We could argue this forever and only find difference in opinion. Can we just agree to disagree?

Maybe someone could respond with something like "Well, I've researched my H. lividum pretty heavily and here's what I know about their natural habitat..."

 

[David Burns]

What about parasites, trying to create an enclosed enviroment is all well and good but with only one species in an enclosure it can hardly be called natural. It can be an open invitation to mites and florid flies.

What if you have over a hundred specimens? The logistics of trying to keep them all in their own enviroments is not feasable.

 

[Amanda]

I think the question was more "where can I find this information?" than "why doesn't everybody in the hobby do it my way?"

 

[Ronj]

We could argue this forever and only find difference in opinion. Can we just agree to disagree?

Argue? I have a hard time with that statement based on the debate within this thread. Perhaps you feel that it is an argument when someone has a different opinion. Most of us only pointed out the complexity of the question and the challenges that this creates. There are simply (in my opinion) too many factors that can not be duplicated in the perfect environment, especially in your basement or the closet that holds the towels.

It was not long ago that I was new to the hobby and I agree that this information would be helpful, especially for newbie’s. I attempted to do my research online and read books as I started my collection. There simply are too many different opinions on just the basic care, and this is confusing when you do not know what you are doing. Perhaps we can start with more of a consensus of what we do know about tarantulas and help eliminate bad information (which is what Arachnoboards is designed to do).

Please don’t get me wrong, I would like as much information as possible as it only helps me become better at keeping my prized Tarantulas. I would love to hear an opinion from someone with more knowledge than most of us put together, such as Steve Nunn, Swifty or Michael Jacobi. For now I have to count on the Sticky’s and my experience.

No argument here, just an opinion.

 

[Cory Loomis]

Only field observations conducted over time can provide the information Ancientscout asks for in this thread. That was one point that I tried to convey in my initial response. And even that information must be viewed with circumspection. From the field we might have a report from a collector who found two dozen Poecilotheria in one hollow branch. But if that data is not put into the larger context it could misguide husbandry efforts. Twenty mature P. regalis will not do well in one cork tube. However, if we know that prior to the monsoons Poecilotheria congregate in tree hollows to conserve moisture, then the information makes sense. Still, that data is of little value to most of us who maintain relatively stable indoor environments for ourselves and our animals. (On the other hand, such information might be crucial if such conditions are the biological trigger that initiates breeding and you are a breeder.)

I, too, crave more information. That's why I visit these boards. But it cannot be used like assembly instructions for a bicycle. You can't construct a perfect habitat because there is no perfect natural habitat, not even in nature. Natural environments are in constant flux, and organisms respond appropriately or die. More data gives us greater insight, but the span between "right" and "wrong" captive environments is substantial.

I agree with Nerri about the need to make intelligent observations and to respond intelligently to what is observed. Many of my Acanthoscurrias can do well without much substrate, and they are far more easily observed. They are much less stressed, though, if they can burrow a bit and hide, so that is what I provide for them. But many also come from areas that receive daily rains for months on end. Here that much moisture leads to fungus in their enclosures, so I keep the substrate relatively dry and provide a water dish. Knowledge and observation allow us to balance and adjust.

 

[Nate]

When I do habitat research for species this site is very helpful for me:

World Biomes
http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/world_biomes.htm

I don’t think you can re-create a perfect “Biosphere” without the introduction of natural predators, prey, scavengers, regional plant life/soil and various regional climate/weather variants. Nature is full of uncontrollable variables which is an enemy to scientific data. You can’t recreate nature without these variables and every region has localized variables that confuse the issue more.

I would love to peruse the hobby of being an armature god and create my own green house customized to a particular area of the world but the lack of funds stops me. I think the best we can offer are the common needs of the wild that our pets can take advantage of.

Humans associate happiness with comforts. Animals concerns are survival and procreation. Few animals such as none human primates feel stressful burdens outside the realm of survival. I think if a tarantula is “feeling stress/unhappiness” it is because the potential threat or lacking of a requirement of survival (food, water and shelter).

 

[luna]

When I do habitat research for species this site is very helpful for me:

World Biomes
http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/world_biomes.htm

Thanks... nice link... and nice excuse for me.

I'm not looking at spiders; I'm preparing for class.