Rattlesnake roundup

[Kaimetsu]

Yeah I'm appalled by some of the posts on the first page defending this practice, people seem to be exhibiting a complete ignorance of ecology at the very least and probably an anti environment worldview as well. I'm glad to see Ren and others on this page speak out against that stupidity. Personally i would support rounding up and slaughtering the humans who do this.
As for deer what we really need to do is reintroduce their natural predators such as wolves back to their former range.

 

[RoachGirlRen]

You do eventually get a stable population (the carrying capacity of a given habitat for a given species under certain conditions) but a lot of deer die in the process.

I've always wondered why we are so bothered by the thought of the deer dying off when overpopulated. In any wild population, there is a finite carrying capacity and a resulting cycle of population booms and bursts. I personally am totally fine with deer starving and dying when they become overpopulated; it creates an important food source for predators and scavenging animals, adds nutrients to the soil, etc. Plus, when deer do not have sufficient access to nutrition, they tend to produce fewer offspring. All good things for decreasing overpopulation.

Right now, we cull off a large numbers of deer RIGHT before winter, when they would naturally starve off and/or be in poorer condition that would result in fewer fawns. This pretty much keeps the cycle of overpopulation in full swing. I recall reading a study on a managed plot vs. an unmanaged plot, and the unmanaged plot ultimately wound up having a sustained lower population than the managed plot because in addition to starvation, birthing was down.

Generally I'm a fan of letting nature take care of its own business, even if something sad has to happen, because we haven't exactly done a bang-up job of trying to control the show. And frankly, deer management isn't going to work too well until we stop trying to strike a balance between ecosystem protection and an 'acceptable' level of overpopulation to maintain hunting activity. Well, that and we've created endless border habitats with ample grazing area along highways, in lawns, etc. that are very conducive to supporting a HUGE number of deer in a small area. You never see population densities like that in wooded habitats because getting fat and reproductive isn't as easy as hanging out next to the interstate and stuffing your face all day. But then, I'm getting a bit off topic now (and bound to rouse a debate to boot).

 

[wayneo]

Whales are "put to good use" when harpooned. Doesn't mean we should.

Yes we should. People eat whales have been doing it for centuries.
In some cultures cows are sacred and are not eaten so should we not eat steaks.

 

[Hedorah99]

Yes we should. People eat whales have been doing it for centuries.
In some cultures cows are sacred and are not eaten so should we not eat steaks.

BIG difference between a domesticated species that was "created" to be food and a wild species that has very little capacity to bounce back from being killed off by anything other than occasional natural predation and old age.

 

[Bigboy]

I've always wondered why we are so bothered by the thought of the deer dying off when overpopulated. In any wild population, there is a finite carrying capacity and a resulting cycle of population booms and bursts. I personally am totally fine with deer starving and dying when they become overpopulated; it creates an important food source for predators and scavenging animals, adds nutrients to the soil, etc. Plus, when deer do not have sufficient access to nutrition, they tend to produce fewer offspring. All good things for decreasing overpopulation.

Right now, we cull off a large numbers of deer RIGHT before winter, when they would naturally starve off and/or be in poorer condition that would result in fewer fawns. This pretty much keeps the cycle of overpopulation in full swing. I recall reading a study on a managed plot vs. an unmanaged plot, and the unmanaged plot ultimately wound up having a sustained lower population than the managed plot because in addition to starvation, birthing was down.

Generally I'm a fan of letting nature take care of its own business, even if something sad has to happen, because we haven't exactly done a bang-up job of trying to control the show. And frankly, deer management isn't going to work too well until we stop trying to strike a balance between ecosystem protection and an 'acceptable' level of overpopulation to maintain hunting activity. Well, that and we've created endless border habitats with ample grazing area along highways, in lawns, etc. that are very conducive to supporting a HUGE number of deer in a small area. You never see population densities like that in wooded habitats because getting fat and reproductive isn't as easy as hanging out next to the interstate and stuffing your face all day. But then, I'm getting a bit off topic now (and bound to rouse a debate to boot).

“culling” is BS. How could there be so little leaves, grass, vegetables, fruit even twigs that we have to kill dear because they would otherwise starve? Not only that but the rattle snake roundup is just a bunch of hilbilleys trying to justify killing something else. They are literally killed by the ton. Thousands of snakes are slaughtered senselessly.

I'll address this in another thread when I have the time, I'm currently at work.

 

[Spidershane1]

I've found rattlesnakes around my property on more than one occasion. Instead of killing them, I just put them into a rubbermaid tub and drive them way out into the desert and let them free.
If I could resort to killing a living creature needlessly instead of taking an hour or two out of my life to relocate it, then I would feel that I would be the one who didn't deserve to live.

 

[kevin91172]

Ha! Ha! This is why I love this board so much rather than the venomous boards I belong to.I get a kick out yall and love all you silly/wise characters.

Now this is entertainment! Yet very knowledgeable from both sides of this fence.
I really need to support this site,already bought my a shirt!

Besides I got my own kinda of a rattle snake round up going on...

 

[tiger cowboy]

I've always wondered why we are so bothered by the thought of the deer dying off when overpopulated. In any wild population, there is a finite carrying capacity and a resulting cycle of population booms and bursts. I personally am totally fine with deer starving and dying when they become overpopulated; it creates an important food source for predators and scavenging animals, adds nutrients to the soil, etc. Plus, when deer do not have sufficient access to nutrition, they tend to produce fewer offspring. All good things for decreasing overpopulation.

Do you want to know the dirty, dirty reason that many wildlife managers do what we do for things like this? Money and public perception.

A good portion of the money for all natural resource management in the U.S. comes from licensing, Dingell-Johnson (fishing equipment) and Pittman-Robertson (hunting equipment) taxes, and a few other sources. However, a lot of the burden falls on the hunters and anglers. The more game species out there the happier the hunters and anglers are. The happier the hunters and anglers are the more money they spend. The more money they spend the more money there is to go to ALL natural resource management including non-game. Therefore the game managers keep the hunters and anglers happy. So! Money.

The other is public perception. Have you ever seen a starving deer? I have. It's not pretty. I understand that not everything is gonna make it so I accept it but that does not make it more pretty. When Joe, Jane, Jimmie and Jennie Public see a starving deer and don't give a spotted owl for "This is the Law of the Jungle" they get very upset and complain to the wildlife managers or rangers. When they get told "Can't do anything, just the way it is" they get upset and go to their friendly local congressman. Friendly local congressman gets righteous and goes after the ranger or wildlife manager and gets angry. The game manager calls Wildlife Services (I.E. Gopher Choakers) and wildlife services solves the deer problem with sharpshooters in night vision goggles with silenced rifles. Notice a certain voice of experience.

On a related note, rattlers are extremely hard to get listed because of public opinion as well.

As you can tell I get a little worked up.

On a related note

 

[kevin91172]

Do you want to know the dirty, dirty reason that many wildlife managers do what we do for things like this? Money and public perception.

A good portion of the money for all natural resource management in the U.S. comes from licensing, Dingell-Johnson (hunting equipment) and Pittman-Robertson (fishing equipment) taxes, and a few other sources. However, a lot of the burden falls on the hunters and anglers. The more game species out there the happier the hunters and anglers are. The happier the hunters and anglers are the more money they spend. The more money they spend the more money there is to go to ALL natural resource management including non-game. Therefore the game managers keep the hunters and anglers happy. So! Money.

The other is public perception. Have you ever seen a starving deer? I have. It's not pretty. I understand that not everything is gonna make it so I accept it but that does not make it more pretty. When Joe, Jane, Jimmie and Jennie Public see a starving deer and don't give a spotted owl for "This is the Law of the Jungle" they get very upset and complain to the wildlife managers or rangers. When they get told "Can't do anything, just the way it is" they get upset and go to their friendly local congressman. Friendly local congressman gets righteous and goes after the ranger or wildlife manager and gets angry. The game manager calls Wildlife Services (I.E. Gopher Choakers) and wildlife services solves the deer problem with sharpshooters in night vision goggles with silenced rifles. Notice a certain voice of experience.

On a related note, rattlers are extremely hard to get listed because of public opinion as well.

As you can tell I get a little worked up.

On a related note

Ditto Tiger.
I notice there are a whole a lot of people smarter than me.But I do the best I can on limited knowledge I have in front of me.So I care not to acknowledge that,which I just did.I enjoy all creatures and hope that the man up stairs would judge what nature should be and not us men.I am sure he is shaking a stick at us and not at his nature.:worship:
MPO

 

[Kaimetsu]

Yes we should. People eat whales have been doing it for centuries.
In some cultures cows are sacred and are not eaten so should we not eat steaks.

In addition to the point made by Hedorah i should also point out that there is a tremendous difference between the intelligence of cows and the intelligence of cetaceans such as whales and dolphins. To make a comment like this implies you can't even begin to grasp how big the difference is.

I notice there are a whole a lot of people smarter than me.But I do the best I can on limited knowledge I have in front of me.So I care not to acknowledge that,which I just did.I enjoy all creatures and hope that the man up stairs would judge what nature should be and not us men.I am sure he is shaking a stick at us and not at his nature.

We only have ourselves to blame for the destruction of natural habitats and biodiversity, and we can't count on any divine entity to protect "his nature." Unfortunately it's in our hands. A bit off topic but I find the idea of a personal god who plays an active roll in the universe and in the lives of us insignificant carbon based replicators to be completely absurd. A deistic god that simply set the formation of the universe in motion and stepped back isnt as absurd just completely unnecessary and superfluous as an explanation for anything.

 

[kevin91172]

In addition to the point made by Hedorah i should also point out that there is a tremendous difference between the intelligence of cows and the intelligence of cetaceans such as whales and dolphins. To make a comment like this implies you can't even begin to grasp how big the difference is.



We only have ourselves to blame for the destruction of natural habitats and biodiversity, and we can't count on any divine entity to protect "his nature." Unfortunately it's in our hands. A bit off topic but I find the idea of a personal god who plays an active roll in the universe and in the lives of us insignificant carbon based replicators to be completely absurd. A deistic god that simply set the formation of the universe in motion and stepped back isnt as absurd just completely unnecessary and superfluous as an explanation for anything.

All righty then..

 

[Bigboy]

In addition to the point made by Hedorah i should also point out that there is a tremendous difference between the intelligence of cows and the intelligence of cetaceans such as whales and dolphins. To make a comment like this implies you can't even begin to grasp how big the difference is.

I don't believe intelligence is a point. Ever eat a cephalopod? It is a matter of sustainability in the end. Modern whaling methods are unsustainable as compared to those pre-industrialization. That said there are still some sustainable harvests of cetaceans. Norway is a prime example of this.

 

[Kaimetsu]

I don't believe intelligence is a point. Ever eat a cephalopod? It is a matter of sustainability in the end. Modern whaling methods are unsustainable as compared to those pre-industrialization. That said there are still some sustainable harvests of cetaceans. Norway is a prime example of this.

There are plenty of marine biologists and people who have studied the brains of dolphins who have made very strong arguments for providing the same legal protections to cetaceans that we provide to mentally disabled people. Many of them have proposed that the legal term non-human person be created for them.

 

[Bigboy]

There are plenty of marine biologists and people who have studied the brains of dolphins who have made very strong arguments for providing the same legal protections to cetaceans that we provide to mentally disabled people. Many of them have proposed that the legal term non-human person be created for them.

My point is that as far as intelligent creatures go, we have and continue to eat:
Monkey
Squid
Octopus
Cuttlefish
Pig
Dog

The difference is that unlike commercial whaling, they are sustainable harvests and or animals that can be farmed. There is a difference between emotional and objective arguments. Saying cetaceans are like mentally disabled people is an insult. It is akin to thinking in black and white.

 

[dtknow]

Agreed with Bigboy-cetaceans are definetly smart animals but it is hard to quantify intelligence. Pigs are smart yet we continue to eat them with no hard feelings.

I used to agree with limited take(even for commercial use such as roundups) but for the most part I am now against it. The gears of commercialism just don't allow harvesting from scarce population of animals without damaging them eventually. Think of the current bluefin crisis.

(it is amusing/sad to me how people can be some adamant on protecting and refusing to eat something so useless as wild :wallferal!) horses yet we have no qualms eating what is basically an endangered species...fish and rattlesnakes just can't tug at our heartstrings I guess)

 

[jebbewocky]

I don't see how people killing and eating deer isn't "nature"--animals hunt to eat all the time. It doesn't sound like this rattlesnake roundup is really needed, or done in a "respectful" manner, but more to go out and murder some animals for something to do.

If they were sustainably harversting them--that'd be different of course.

And octopodes are intelligent, not squid. I've never heard anything about squid being intelligent.

EDIT: My point being, Human beings are animals as well. Deer are made of meat, and tasty. I'm not even going into the necessity vs. non-necessity of managing wildlife, just that deer are tasty and overpopulated (which means they cause more property damage resulting from car accidents).

 

[RoachGirlRen]

Do you want to know the dirty, dirty reason that many wildlife managers do what we do for things like this? Money and public perception

I don't see how people killing and eating deer isn't "nature"--animals hunt to eat all the time.

I'd like to reply to these two, but I'm going to do it in the "Deer Management" thread.

 

[Kaimetsu]

My point is that as far as intelligent creatures go, we have and continue to eat:
Monkey
Squid
Octopus
Cuttlefish
Pig
Dog

The difference is that unlike commercial whaling, they are sustainable harvests and or animals that can be farmed. There is a difference between emotional and objective arguments. Saying cetaceans are like mentally disabled people is an insult. It is akin to thinking in black and white.

None of the animals you listed come close to the intelligence of the smarter cetaceans. I have to ask what is it that makes human life more valuable that the life of other mammals. The only reason i can come up with is intelligence, or potential intelligence in the case of children, by this metric i have no problem saying that the life of a bottlenose dolphin has more value than say, the life of a human with down syndrome.

 

[Bigboy]

None of the animals you listed come close to the intelligence of the smarter cetaceans. I have to ask what is it that makes human life more valuable that the life of other mammals. The only reason i can come up with is intelligence, or potential intelligence in the case of children, by this metric i have no problem saying that the life of a bottlenose dolphin has more value than say, the life of a human with down syndrome.

Intelligence is a relative value and it cannot be quantified in the way you are representing it.

 

[Kaimetsu]

Intelligence is a relative value and it cannot be quantified in the way you are representing it.

No but in terms of language, creativity, abstract thought, problem solving ability, social intelligence, or any other thing that can be tested, a bottlenose dolphin is much closer to a human than it is to any of the other animals you listed. These things can and have been tested in bottlenose dolphins.