Raising L. geometricus

[buthus]

These are hesp slings, but almost the same...
This is a 2 oz cup. For a yield this big (and esp for a medium to large geo sac) I would recommend a 4oz. A few very small (use the point of a needle) airholes in the top is a good thing. Make sure your lid is a tight one. Escapes do happen esp when you get a large yield, which usually means the slings are small. (they can very, even from sac to sac from the same female) Escape via an imperfect sealed lid should be and usually is the only way for it to happen. Big airholes just means you're stupid.
Keeping the sling container in a sealed food container is a good idea. If you have a clever escapee, it wont get far. Also, this can be useful for keeping a higher humidity if needed. A .75 oz cup full of soaked crystals (cap crystals with a well vented lid to keep a more constant flow) and a well ventilated sling cup lid will keep the humidity up without having to add moisture directly to the cup.
Group feeding is useful and can be done by cutting a trap-door into the sling cup lid. Hinge it upward, stick in chunks of cut up crix/whatever or funnel in a bunch of ffllys, press the trap back down and stick a chunk of tape over it if needed or there is worry that it could pop open.

Further info/oppinion depends on what your goals are.

 

[Pulk]

Would two weeks after the sac was made be a reasonable time to move it out?

How exactly do you put the sac in the new container? (obviously mine has a lot less webbing attached to it than the hatched one in your pics)
Why do you use such a small cup? Is seems kind of cramped to work with so many slings in such a small area.
Should I put sticks in it?
I don't have water crystals... can I maintain the humidity with spraying?

Is it easier to chop up normal-sized crickets (how big should the pieces be?) or to buy tiny live ones?
Do many slings run out when you open the lid?

How exactly do you separate them? (what tools do you use?)
Where do you put the separated slings, and what goes in their containers?

and I know this is a stretch, given I don't even know if the sac is viable... but is it ok to interbreed them?

your pics and advice are helping massively


i'll edit this pic in while nobody's looking... (now i feel stupid for calling it l. hesperus)

 

[Pulk]

I'm seriously... Could somebody please answer the questions above?

 

[P. Novak]

Would two weeks after the sac was made be a reasonable time to move it out?]

Yeah that seems alright to me, maybe even earlier if you'd like.

How exactly do you put the sac in the new container? (obviously mine has a lot less webbing attached to it than the hatched one in your pics)
Why do you use such a small cup? Is seems kind of cramped to work with so many slings in such a small area.
Should I put sticks in it?
I don't have water crystals... can I maintain the humidity with spraying?

You can put them in any kind of container you'd like just as long as the holes aren't small enough for them to squeeze out. Small cups are good for controling the number of slings you want to live. If you want less put them in a smaller cup to encourage cannabilism faster.

Just gently grab the webbing around the eggsac with tweezers and tear it down so that the eggsac comes with it.

Is it easier to chop up normal-sized crickets (how big should the pieces be?) or to buy tiny live ones?
Do many slings run out when you open the lid?

You can use pinhead crickets or fruit flys while their young, or just let them cannabilze for a couple of days/week then it'll be easier to feed.

How exactly do you separate them? (what tools do you use?)
Where do you put the separated slings, and what goes in their containers?

Again if you let them cannabilze the numbers won't be overwhelming, either way you're gonna have to just individually move them to small vials or something of the similar type. Stick a small twig or something in with them for them to start their webs. Gradually increase their contair size as they outgrow their current ones.

and I know this is a stretch, given I don't even know if the sac is viable... but is it ok to interbreed them?

Like breed offspring with offspring? I'd say it's ok, I really can't see anything wrong with that.



There you go, I answered the questions to the best of my ability.

 

[Pulk]

Appreciate it, Novak.

I've got some more questions.

How do you attach the sac to the new container?
Should there be sticks in it?
What's this I hear about a hammock?
Is spraying acceptable to maintain humidity?

I'd prefer not to use pinhead crickets or fruit flies. How small should the pieces of chopped-up cricket be? (or would just a dead regular cricket work?) There isn't much webbing around the eggsac. How are the slings going to have access to the food?

Is this container ok? (It's about 18 oz I think.)
Would it be better to have something shallower so slings on the bottom aren't so far away?
Would it be better to use a cotton ball instead of a door?

Thanks everyone!

 

[P. Novak]

Appreciate it, Novak.

I've got some more questions.

How do you attach the sac to the new container?
Should there be sticks in it?
What's this I hear about a hammock?
Is spraying acceptable to maintain humidity?

I never attach it, I just lay it on the floor. Here I have a better idea for you. Wait until the eggsac appears darker then normal, by then you should have 1st or 2nd instars. The hammock is ussually for T eggsacs, I really don't think you'll need a hammock to raise these. Just wait till the eggsac darkens then remove it, save you alot of trouble. I would spray the walls a bit while in the moms enclosure, and after that no more except when they are out of the eggsac and on their own.

I'd prefer not to use pinhead crickets or fruit flies. How small should the pieces of chopped-up cricket be? (or would just a dead regular cricket work?) There isn't much webbing around the eggsac. How are the slings going to have access to the food?

I would just put in a whole fresh dead crciket in , but that might not work. Just let them cannibalize till they are big enough to feed on what you have available.

Cannibalization saves you alot of time and frustration.

Is this container ok? (It's about 18 oz I think.)
Would it be better to have something shallower so slings on the bottom aren't so far away?
Would it be better to use a cotton ball instead of a door?

Thanks everyone!

From what I can see that container would work fine. No no more shallower, they will all crowd up at the top anyway.

 

[Pulk]

You're amazing, Novak.

Will it be obvious when the sac has turned darker?
Will the slings definitely be able to climb the smooth plastic walls?
If you drop food in through just one hole, will all the slings go over there to eat?
Should the container have sticks or anything in it?
Would a cotton ball in a hole be easier than a hinged and taped flap? (it sounds like it would be)

...watch, after all this it's gonna be a dud.

 

[8+)]

You're amazing, Novak.

It it be obvious when the sac has turned darker?

Yes

Will the slings definitely be able to climb the smooth plastic walls?

Eventually they will web their way up to the top.

If you drop food in through just one hole, will all the slings go over there to eat?

If you're talking about dropping one dead cricket in, I doubt they will all come to eat from it.

Should the container have sticks or anything in it?

I've tried coiled and bent twist ties for places for them to secure their web. It seems to work quite well.

Would a cotton ball in a hole be easier than a hinged and taped flap? (it sounds like it would be)

When they make their way to the top, they will web on the cotton ball. Then every time you pull out the cotton ball, slings will come out with it.

 

[Pulk]

Could someone post a photo of a light and a dark eggsac?
This one's only a week old, and it kind of seems darker. Will it be, like, black?

 

[P. Novak]

Could someone post a photo of a light and a dark eggsac?
This one's only a week old, and it kind of seems darker. Will it be, like, black?

I'm afraid I don't have any eggsacs at the momment, but you could try taking a pic of yours and I can tell you what I think about it. It wouldn't be black it would be a dark off-white/medium brown color.

 

[Pulk]

This is with flash, so the pic is a little lighter than real life. I'd definitely say it's at least off white, towards brown, so I'll play it safe and move it today or tomorrow. (?)

http://users.adelphia.net/~lroux/dark.jpg

 

[P. Novak]

Are you sure you have a Latrodectus hesperus? That doesn't look like a sac from that species. Do you have a picture of the mother?

How long ago was that sac laid?

 

[buthus]

You should PM an admin here and see if you can change the thread title or maybe start a new thread for this. Changing the title would probably be easiest if they can help you. The reason being is confusing info tends to come out bad info.

You're amazing, Novak.

Will it be obvious when the sac has turned darker?
Will the slings definitely be able to climb the smooth plastic walls?
If you drop food in through just one hole, will all the slings go over there to eat?
Should the container have sticks or anything in it?
Would a cotton ball in a hole be easier than a hinged and taped flap? (it sounds like it would be)

The Amazing Novak ...thats what we call him.

Geo sacs show obvious signs of maturing. For me, my geos have produced sacs that varied greatly when it comes to hatch time. Expect hatching between 1 to 2 months.

Slings work together building a scaffold type web structure and just like adults, they can work their way up smooth surfaces because of this webbing method.
They (the majority) will work upward and towards light. You can control them somewhat because of this.
Ball up some thin wire so when you shove it into the cup it stays put ...u can silicone it in a bit so it doesnt move if you have to. (important! let the silicone(recommended) or any other adhesive dry for a day or two before adding the sac!! )
Wedge the sac (dont squeeze it though) between some of the wire or just lay it on the bottom of the cup.
When the sac hatches, most of the slings will web around the sac securing it and then they will start working upward. At this point or soon after, just turn the cup over and the slings will move up and away from the lid. This allows you to open the lid and grab slings out and it helps keep the sneakier slings from trying to squeeze thru the lid/cup seal. (there is always a few that try )
Geos are highly cannibalistic and will start being so after first molt and when feeding time begins. Food stimulates hunting.

Yes, some slings will find a whole cricket(dead or close to) and feed on it. Chopped up crix, roaches, and/or meal worms along with live fflys can be the best feeding combo. Individual slings reacted to different stimuli ..differently. The key is to strengthen as many of the slings as early as you can with the first meal or two. This will level the playing field and allow the true Alphas to prevail ..not just the luckys.
Get yourself a good pair of tweezers. You can shove food into different areas of the cup so more slings find their meals.

Cotton ball idea.. I wouldnt. Slings will attach to it and even hide within it. Geo slings tend to be smaller than most latros and they can hide in tiny spaces.

Remember, unless your female is at the end of her life, she will produce more sacs. This will give you the opportunity to try a few methods ...and to focus on your goals. For example, if you power feed the first hatching en mass and get 4 or 5 strong females out of it, these females can be mated with males from sacs later down the line. Attempting to raise males and breed them with sac siblings (I mean from a single sac) is VERY difficult esp with geos ...but it probably can be done. I have done so with a few single sac situations, but never tried with geos.(never needed to)
Geo males mature fast and they dont always grow very large quickly like other latros do. Geo males tend to be a bit harder to spot early on. If you really pay attention, you sometimes will be able to spot palps 2 or three molts before maturity ...but like I said, geo males tend to be small and this makes male ID a bit harder.

Tools I use for raising latros...
Paint brushes. I use a few different types for different situations. A good stiff #2 artists oil brush is perfect to most needs ...great for grabbing sling out of the web, cleaning webbing out of containers (just spin it ) etc..
A small, soft fan brush is my fav brush for sling transfer. Less chance of crushing slings. Flat, so slings will crawl onto it and delicate/controllable enough to pick up tiny slings with just the webbing trailing behind them.

Tweezers... sharp, fine tipped tweezers are a must for feeding. I have several pair. Straight is my all around and a an angled for when you need it. Big tweezers are handy for removing dead spiders, sacs, molding carcases, etc.

Trays ...either food containers or I use small photo dev trays ...and a few other things too. Do your work (transfers and whatnot) all within a plastic tray.

X-acto knife

Spray bottle that can produce a very fine mist.


Ok..
Remember just don't panic...

One sac CAN be a useful way to get one great spider. I have often let nature do its thing and let one sac = a few or even a single spider.
Geos are common and it will not be difficult to get males or other females for breeding. In-breeding is usually ok and possibly my strengthen attributes, but new blood is always better for the long run ...even with simpler creatures such as spiders. Either way is valid though ...and breeding latros and maintaining a line or two is fun ...and is a hobby within itself.

A few escapee slings will MOST LIKELY not cause any problems. Chances of survival AND being able to reproduce is very low.
Using a tray, going slow about the work and concentrating when working with slings CAN reduce escapee chances to nil. Remember... when working with slings... sudden stupid movements can send a sling or few flying and you wont even know it happened. They are always attached to something ...keep that in mind.

Hope some of this helps..
good luck with the sac

BTW...I'm in the midst of a major server and DNS tranfer, so my images are all dead.
I do plan, sometime in the near future (hope that time allows) to create a detailed latro page that will include my methods (and other keepers theories/methods) in detail.

 

[Pulk]

Thanks lots. I'll get that stuff soon.

I don't want to make a new thread for just one question, but this is about adults - how much height and floor space do they have to have?

 

[P. Novak]

Thanks lots. I'll get that stuff soon.

I don't want to make a new thread for just one question, but this is about adults - how much height and floor space do they have to have?

I'd say it's really all up to you. I've kept Latrodectus spp. in tall thin containers, shallow wide containers, tall wide containers, etc. Just about everything. It's really just your preferance. For suggestions though, I would go with taller then wider.

 

[Pulk]

I moved the sac into its cup yesterday, as I had to re-do the cage because of mold, and I didn't want the female to be stressed and eat the sac.
More interestingly, last night (hours after I removed the first sac) she made another one. This means only 11 days between eggsacs. Is that unusual?

Semi-relatedly, how can you tell if it's a dud or not?

Also, exactly how wet should the eggsac cup be? I have a spray bottle.

Also also, are live pinheads acceptable?

 

[P. Novak]

11 days in not unusual, I've had females make sacks 3-5 days apart.

Also, you can't really at first. If it molds up after a couple of weeks dud, if not and babies start emerging, then well it's obviously viable.

I would spray the sides of container just once. NOT alot, just a little.

 

[buthus]

Out of all latros Ive raised, Ive only had a "handful" dud sacs that I can recall and one sac that was started, eggs layed and then abandoned before completion. Extreme heat was the cause of the later. Ive had one old, infertile female start what seemed to be a sac attempt, but I cant remember ever having an unmated female make a full sac. I have one hesp that was sent to me that may have been accidently x-bred with a mactan male ...her sacs have never hatched. As for all other sacs that have failed to hatch.... I will say that they were not "duds", but more likely killed via poor conditions such as low humidity. Though, with geos, I have had a few produce tiny sacs with only a few eggs... some of these hatched, some did not. My black morph treds sacs NEVER hatch on their own and those, if not forced-hatched end up being sacs full of corpses.
As for females eating their sacs... this has been mentioned a few times lately on the boards and I fear it will become part of the widow knowledge base whether the phenomenon has merit or not. I have never witnessed sac eating nor have found any evidence of it occurring. Recently I "starved" several hesp females and one mac female for over two months. Each had one or more sacs and a couple produced more sacs during that time. All the sacs hatched. FAR from a conclusive experiment, but I have yet to see a sac eaten.

Geometricus do well in humidity, but they are originally native to very arid regions of Africa. I have hatched geos successfully in both conditions. Geos are mostly a no brainer. Just don't get lazy and forget to remove sacs from enclosures that are not sling-proof. They tend to hide their sacs up into their hide and their sacs can be small and easily missed. I've had a few go off inside enclosures and have had geo slings making their way across my walls and other enclosures. 409 Armageddon.

 

[Pulk]

Ok, thanks.

Is it possible that this widow (actually, two of them) is a crossbred geometricus/hesperus? Maybe it's just the light, but it seems like it's a lot more hesperus-like than most of the google image results for geometricus. Plus there's only supposed to be hesperus around here.

I just got a small male. How do you know when they're breedable?

 

[Pulk]

So a diet of chopped up crickets and mealworms is ok?
i think it's too big a deal to start a fruit fly colony right now, and the smallest crix i can get nearby are 2 weeks old.