Questions

[quiz]

I don't really like to spend money on scorps so I only use 2 substrate. Peat moss or play-sand. I give them heat 26C-30C during the day and I would just shut off their heat when it's time for me to sleep and I believe the temperature drops to 18C degrees. As for feeding them, I try to give them food every 2 weeks or whenever I get a chance to buy crickets and mealworms. When it comes to hides, I just give them whatever I have. Broken pot, flat slate, rough rock..whatever is avaible. I'd ask around or look for info if they are burrowers, clingers or if they like to hang upside down under a rock. As long as I can feed them and they are eating. That's good enough for me. I tried to make their enclosure look like their natural habitat but I have to bug them every 2 weeks when it's time to clean their enclosure and I don't like that. I keep my enclosure nice, clean and simple.

 

[Crono]

I agree. But, realistically if it works then it doesnt need to be the same as the scorpions home turf. You use potting mix. Not a bacterial problem with that either by the looks? It's just that a lot of these potting mixes and leaf mulches etc are loaded with bacteria....but they dont seem to be causing a problem so far as stated.

I will admit that it is not sterile, and fungi and bacterial films can grow if given the chance, but this is easily avoided by proper maintenance and monitoring humidity levels. Also, peat is very acidic and, while I do worry slightly about how this affects the scorpion, the acidity limits the growth of most organisms in normal conditions.

I would really love to mix a substrate that is virtually identical to the native substrate of the scorpion, but it isn't feasible for the most part. Ideally, I would match soil texture and structure, organic matter%, pH and salinity to the native soil but soil tests are not readily available.
It's a bit of a moot point if the scorpion thrives on its artificial substrate so I don't worry too much.

 

[Alakdan]

Mark,

The variation in composition will affect the structure of the burrow. Some scorps create a complex network of tunnels while some continously re-decorate their enclosures. A lot of trial and observation is done to get the proper mix, but there is no exact formula.

-Too much sand in the mixture will make the substrate loose and can easily shift . This is ideal for opportunistic burrowers to dig a scrape under a flat rock or driftwood.

-Too much soil will make the substrate harden when dry. This will help tunnels keep their shape.

-Cocopeat gives volume to the substrate but is lightweight. It will not easily collapse.

-Cocopeat and soil combination helps keep moisture longer.

I don't make my own leaf compost. I use one that is store bought and sterilized. Although, I once used compost from our garden. It was really risky. It's a good thing there was a colony of pillbugs instead of mites. The presence of bacteria does not really worry me too much.

I got the leaf compost idea during one of my hunting trips. Most of the Lychas and Chaerilus were found under leaf litter that resembed compost.

Here are some pictures of my hunting trips. This is the habitat I'm trying to simulate. Found here are Lychas infuscatus, Chaerilus celebensis, and Liocheles waigiensis.

 

[Brian S]

For #1 Desert terrestrial, does that include fossorial forms, as terrestrial suggests above ground/ground level? If I used your setup for our desert scorpions they would be dead in no time. You might have seen the evaporative water loss graph I posted for prelim studies on U armatus. The rate of water loss at 35% RH was very high, death inside 2 weeks. And this is with a scorpion that I would almost consider semi-fossorial in that it is quite surface active. This scorpion has me beat at the moment as it doesnt apppear to draw water osmotically at levels low enough to be useful for the scorpion.

I understand with your desert scorpions they seem to be very much more water loss tolerant and hence your system works.

I should have elaborated on this more than I did last night. At the moment the xeric species I keep are Androctonus, Parabuthus and Hottentotta which are basically ground level species which dig small scrapes under available cover.
A few years ago I was into Opistophthalmus spp from South Africa which of course are burrowers. With them I did everything the same except I provided up to 8 inches of substrate. At first I experimented with using bentonite with my sand. By wetting the sand and allowing it to dry it will hold up a tunnel well. However, if anyone tries this they should experiment first because a little bentonite goes a looooooooong way. The first time I did that it dried into a brick that was hard enough to be used in the constuction of a skyscraper!!
Later I found a product here called Repti Sand will hold a nice burrow without adding anything to it.
About once a month I would pour water and flood about 1/4 of the substrate. With a screen type top it would dry out in about a day and the scorps seemed to do well although I never tried to breed this genus so it may take something all together different to be successful at that endeavor. I really dont know anyone that has tried to breed Opistophthalmus and it would indeed be interesting for some of you all to try this

 

[Mark Newton]

A few years ago I was into Opistophthalmus spp from South Africa which of course are burrowers. With them I did everything the same except I provided up to 8 inches of substrate. At first I experimented with using bentonite with my sand. By wetting the sand and allowing it to dry it will hold up a tunnel well. However, if anyone tries this they should experiment first because a little bentonite goes a looooooooong way. The first time I did that it dried into a brick that was hard enough to be used in the constuction of a skyscraper!!
................ I really dont know anyone that has tried to breed Opistophthalmus and it would indeed be interesting for some of you all to try this

Thanks Brian, that was interesting to read. Is Opistophthalmus the genera that dig spiral burrows? I seem to recall it might have been. Did the Opistophthalmus die or what happened with them? Your drying sand problem is the reason I still use sealed containers for our obligate burrowers. I'm not too sure I would use bentonite though. It sucks water and protein like no ones business, it could be a problem and in fact dry the scorpion out if its tension is high enough. I would think maybe some form of vegetative additive to help hold water.

The problem I have with using natural desert sand is obtaining the correct water gradient. Because it passes water so easily, a little water very quickly moves through it and makes it wet. It's difficult to establish the correct gradient and then be able to keep this going automatically. Even by manual inspection and adding water to tubes and a false base it is a difficult battle. I have been testing to see if it will suck water at high vapour levels, but it doesnt seem to be.

Rock dwelling or surface dwelling forms are always hardier as they live closer to the surface and hence experience more variable and desiccating conditions.

 

[Mark Newton]

I will admit that it is not sterile, and fungi and bacterial films can grow if given the chance, but this is easily avoided by proper maintenance and monitoring humidity levels. Also, peat is very acidic and, while I do worry slightly about how this affects the scorpion, the acidity limits the growth of most organisms in normal conditions.

I would really love to mix a substrate that is virtually identical to the native substrate of the scorpion, but it isn't feasible for the most part. Ideally, I would match soil texture and structure, organic matter%, pH and salinity to the native soil but soil tests are not readily available.
It's a bit of a moot point if the scorpion thrives on its artificial substrate so I don't worry too much.

Crono.....I agree if you can get the scorp to do well it doesnt matter too much about the substrate, although if you want to study adaptive morphology it might.

Alakdan...your mixtures make sense. I must experiment with adding some vegetative matter to desert soil to see if I can get it to hold water better. This may help solve the drying out problem without the need for sealing off the enclosure.

 

[Brian S]

Thanks Brian, that was interesting to read. Is Opistophthalmus the genera that dig spiral burrows? I seem to recall it might have been. Did the Opistophthalmus die or what happened with them? Your drying sand problem is the reason I still use sealed containers for our obligate burrowers. I'm not too sure I would use bentonite though. It sucks water and protein like no ones business, it could be a problem and in fact dry the scorpion out if its tension is high enough. I would think maybe some form of vegetative additive to help hold water.

I would say in the wild they might dig a spiral burrow as they always dug a network of tunnels when I was keeping them. My interests started shifting to Buthids so I traded and/or sold all of mine. Looking back, if I was to work with this genus again I would certainly mix peat/coco and sand since it does hold some moisture. More than likely it would be wise to give them a wet and a dry season just as they would have in the wild especially if I was to try breeding them.

The problem I have with using natural desert sand is obtaining the correct water gradient. Because it passes water so easily, a little water very quickly moves through it and makes it wet. It's difficult to establish the correct gradient and then be able to keep this going automatically. Even by manual inspection and adding water to tubes and a false base it is a difficult battle. I have been testing to see if it will suck water at high vapour levels, but it doesnt seem to be.

I noticed when I kept Opistophthalmus spp they would immediately go to the moist side after I flooded it. They would usually stay there for a few hours and then return to the dry areas of the burrow. One has to be extremely careful when doing this sort of thing as many xeric species can develop mycosis if left too humid. It takes alot of experimenting to get it close to being correct. I am sure that mixing sand with peat or coco would be the way to go now and even perhaps some clay?

 

[xVOWx]

I am sure that mixing sand with peat or coco would be the way to go now and even perhaps some clay?

I have tried clay before. I couldn't find any bentonite so I dissolved some potting clay into water and used it to wet down some sand (I think it might have been Repti Sand mentioned earlier). It worked as a binder... too well. The result was very similar to your "skyscraper brick". However, I think that if I used the same method with a much smaller amount of dissolved clay the result could be usefull, I haven't experimented with it. I'm currently using playsand from my local Home Depot, it's a larger granule sand than what I've been using and even completely dry it (so far) has been holding a burrow pretty well as I've found that one of my A.australis and jeuvy A.bicolor have ignored their hides completely and opted to burrow in the corners of their terrariums. My sub adult A.a and other 3 jeuvy A.b were quite content to use their hides as a starting point.

 

[EAD063]

Hey VOW, does your sand from HD happen to turn a brownish color on the surface after flooding? I assume this is partly due to the peat but I've always wondered and your the first whos said they use HD sand also.

Ed

 

[xVOWx]

Hey VOW, does your sand from HD happen to turn a brownish color on the surface after flooding? I assume this is partly due to the peat but I've always wondered and your the first whos said they use HD sand also.

Ed

No, I think it's just sand and pepples, no peat. It's this local stuff from utah I beleive (too lazy to look at the bag again). When it's wet it just turns a very slight shade darker.