Promoting captive breeding

[spideyspinneret78]

I've really been thinking about how vital captive breeding efforts are for many beloved species in our collections, especially considering the extent of deforestation and habitat loss. In my opinion we should be doing everything we possibly can to promote captive breeding efforts and avoid WC animals as much as possible. Unfortunately many people don't understand the benefits of buying a captive bred animal: it reduces pressures on native populations, CB animals tend to be healthier and better adjusted to captivity, and it supports the continuation of the hobby as a whole. Unscrupulous dealers offering larger WC specimens for a cheaper price lure many people in who don't know better. In many peoples' minds, why pay more for a sling? What realistic steps do you think we should try to take to educate people and emphasize this? I think that really trying to promote captive breeding could do a lot to help both the environment and improve negative perceptions of people who keep exotic pets.

 

[viper69]

correct

 

[BoyFromLA]

In extent, get to know with your neighbor / local keepers, in my opinion, this goes for a long run. This helped me a lot with not only just get conversations going, but with selling / buying / giving away / breeding project / etc.

 

[cold blood]

Well I agree with a but....

While I dont agree with people collecting and selling ts and while I do prefer to buy captive born and bred ts and I do actively participate in and promote the breeding of ts in the hobby (I am a breeder myself), there are important little things for the hobby coming out of WC specimens.

See, many, if not most of the ts in our hobby originally came from a relatively small number of parental spiders (some only a couple specimens), this makes the genetic diversity within captively bred specimens less than optimal, especially over time. As a breeder, one of the best things I can do for the hobby is to breed some of these WC imports as this is literally the only way we can ever hope to increase that ever important genetic diversity within our CB populations.

Also, there are also some species, like A. avics for example, that are so abundant in their native ranges that the collection of them has had literally no impact on the wild populations...obviously these are the exceptions and not the norm, and I am not trying to dismiss all the ts that are or could easily be over-harvested (over-harvesting is and has been the black eye of the hobby for years, especially with the general public) but its important to note that exceptions like I mentioned certainly do exist.

I also dont agree with WC being better adjusted to captivity...They dont even have brains...I find it hard to believe a t can even comprehend that its been captively bred or that it lives captively. I have never seen any evidence to support this.

That said, I agree with what you are saying for the most part and applaud you for expressing the importance of captive bred ts. The hobby always needs more species bred and could always use more dedicated breeders. Always try to buy wild caught if possible, but if you can't, don't let it go to waste, breed it!

 

[spideyspinneret78]

Well I agree with a but....

While I dont agree with people collecting and selling ts and while I do prefer to buy captive born and bred ts and I do actively participate in and promote the breeding of ts in the hobby (I am a breeder myself), there are important little things for the hobby coming out of WC specimens.

See, many, if not most of the ts in our hobby originally came from a relatively small number of parental spiders (some only a couple specimens), this makes the genetic diversity within captively bred specimens less than optimal, especially over time. As a breeder, one of the best things I can do for the hobby is to breed some of these WC imports as this is literally the only way we can ever hope to increase that ever important genetic diversity within our CB populations.

Also, there are also some species, like A. avics for example, that are so abundant in their native ranges that the collection of them has had literally no impact on the wild populations...obviously these are the exceptions and not the norm, and I am not trying to dismiss all the ts that are or could easily be over-harvested (over-harvesting is and has been the black eye of the hobby for years, especially with the general public) but its important to note that exceptions like I mentioned certainly do exist.

I also dont agree with WC being better adjusted to captivity...They dont even have brains...I find it hard to believe a t can even comprehend that its been captively bred or that it lives captively. I have never seen any evidence to support this.

That said, I agree with what you are saying for the most part and applaud you for expressing the importance of captive bred ts. The hobby always needs more species bred and could always use more dedicated breeders. Always try to buy wild caught if possible, but if you can't, don't let it go to waste, breed it!

I do agree with what you mentioned about inbreeding. We absolutely do need additions of WC animals into the gene pools every so often to help promote genetic diversity. I believe that we should try to limit how many Ts we take from the wild though. There are also animals that are extremely abundant in their range, but my concern is for how long this will be sustainable, especially with habitat loss. As someone who used to be involved in endangered species breeding programs, I also think it would be wise and contribute to our legitimacy for breeders to trace bloodlines or create studbooks for some of these animals. Obviously this is MUCH easier said than done and likely will never be accomplished, but my god it would make a huge difference. One can dream, I suppose.

 

[cold blood]

it would be wise and contribute to our legitimacy for breeders to trace bloodlines or create studbooks for some of these animals.

Find the Doctor...we need his T.A.R.D.I.S.

 

[Arthroverts]

Perhaps a little more low-key than dedicated records and studbooks, I administer a few groups created for the purpose of connecting breeders of certain invertebrate groups to help guard against loss of a species from uncoordinated breeding projects or trophy pet buying (as unlike with tarantulas a lot of invertebrates are only imported once, so you have one shot to get things going). Something for tarantulas might also be helpful.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[dragonfire1577]

I feel like native Aphonopelma definitely deserve more captive breeding efforts. They are very slow growers and I'd imagine capture of large females can't be particularly sustainable within an area even though they seem to be fairly abundant in the southwest as a whole.

 

[rock]

I feel like native Aphonopelma definitely deserve more captive breeding efforts. They are very slow growers and I'd imagine capture of large females can't be particularly sustainable within an area even though they seem to be fairly abundant in the southwest as a whole.

Yes! I never see A. iodius unless it’s wc

 

[dragonfire1577]

Yes! I never see A. iodius unless it’s wc

Hentzi and really anything besides chalcodes too!

 

[Dry Desert]

Well I agree with a but....

While I dont agree with people collecting and selling ts and while I do prefer to buy captive born and bred ts and I do actively participate in and promote the breeding of ts in the hobby (I am a breeder myself), there are important little things for the hobby coming out of WC specimens.

See, many, if not most of the ts in our hobby originally came from a relatively small number of parental spiders (some only a couple specimens), this makes the genetic diversity within captively bred specimens less than optimal, especially over time. As a breeder, one of the best things I can do for the hobby is to breed some of these WC imports as this is literally the only way we can ever hope to increase that ever important genetic diversity within our CB populations.

Also, there are also some species, like A. avics for example, that are so abundant in their native ranges that the collection of them has had literally no impact on the wild populations...obviously these are the exceptions and not the norm, and I am not trying to dismiss all the ts that are or could easily be over-harvested (over-harvesting is and has been the black eye of the hobby for years, especially with the general public) but its important to note that exceptions like I mentioned certainly do exist.

I also dont agree with WC being better adjusted to captivity...They dont even have brains...I find it hard to believe a t can even comprehend that its been captively bred or that it lives captively. I have never seen any evidence to support this.

That said, I agree with what you are saying for the most part and applaud you for expressing the importance of captive bred ts. The hobby always needs more species bred and could always use more dedicated breeders. Always try to buy wild caught if possible, but if you can't, don't let it go to waste, breed it!

I totally agree, if captive breeding continues without any WC being reintroduce into blood lines, you will end up with the same sort of neurological problems that the reptile world has, but it won't be as obvious as in a large vertebrates.
The problem is so bad, that in the UK several morphs of royal pythons, scaless corn snakes and others are not allowed to be displayed for sale at the reptile shows.
All this has come about by continuous captive breeding for financial gain, or to aim for a slightly different shade of whatever that will sell for big bucks, Not to keep the species thriving in the hobby and prevent any WC coming in.

 

[Arthroverts]

I used to wonder why Aphonopelma weren't bred in captivity more often until I got a few.
Now it makes total sense why a lot of people aren't interested in waiting 5-10+ years to breed a species. That's dedication not many have.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[Pmurinushmacla]

Well I agree with a but....

While I dont agree with people collecting and selling ts and while I do prefer to buy captive born and bred ts and I do actively participate in and promote the breeding of ts in the hobby (I am a breeder myself), there are important little things for the hobby coming out of WC specimens.

See, many, if not most of the ts in our hobby originally came from a relatively small number of parental spiders (some only a couple specimens), this makes the genetic diversity within captively bred specimens less than optimal, especially over time. As a breeder, one of the best things I can do for the hobby is to breed some of these WC imports as this is literally the only way we can ever hope to increase that ever important genetic diversity within our CB populations.

Also, there are also some species, like A. avics for example, that are so abundant in their native ranges that the collection of them has had literally no impact on the wild populations...obviously these are the exceptions and not the norm, and I am not trying to dismiss all the ts that are or could easily be over-harvested (over-harvesting is and has been the black eye of the hobby for years, especially with the general public) but its important to note that exceptions like I mentioned certainly do exist.

I also dont agree with WC being better adjusted to captivity...They dont even have brains...I find it hard to believe a t can even comprehend that its been captively bred or that it lives captively. I have never seen any evidence to support this.

That said, I agree with what you are saying for the most part and applaud you for expressing the importance of captive bred ts. The hobby always needs more species bred and could always use more dedicated breeders. Always try to buy wild caught if possible, but if you can't, don't let it go to waste, breed it!

I think if you get a T as a sling, it might have no difference, wc or cb. But if you take an adult that was in captivity all its life, and compare it with a freshly taken one, I think you will see some differences in behavior. The captive bred one has only known a small enclosure its whole life, whereas a wild adult t could wander and move around wherever it felt like it. This is all speculation though, as I have no data to back this up. Id like to see a study done on it.

 

[Pmurinushmacla]

I used to wonder why Aphonopelma weren't bred in captivity more often until I got a few.
Now it makes total sense why a lot of people aren't interested in waiting 5-10+ years to breed a species. That's dedication not many have.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

Dedication for no profit either, might I add.

 

[jrh3]

I think if you get a T as a sling, it might have no difference, wc or cb. But if you take an adult that was in captivity all its life, and compare it with a freshly taken one, I think you will see some differences in behavior. The captive bred one has only known a small enclosure its whole life, whereas a wild adult t could wander and move around wherever it felt like it. This is all speculation though, as I have no data to back this up. Id like to see a study done on it.

I have had adult WC species before and noticed no difference.

 

[cold blood]

I think if you get a T as a sling, it might have no difference, wc or cb. But if you take an adult that was in captivity all its life, and compare it with a freshly taken one, I think you will see some differences in behavior.

I dont agree

 

[Pmurinushmacla]

I dont agree

OK

I have had adult WC species before and noticed no difference.

You pulled them from the wild?

 

[jrh3]

You pulled them from the wild?

I purchased them, they were wild caught. You can find WC species for sale.

 

[Pmurinushmacla]

I purchased them, they were wild caught. You can find WC species for sale.

I know. Any idea how long ago they were captured?

 

[jrh3]

I know. Any idea how long ago they were captured?

When they are caught, Im sure they are imported then sold fairly quick.