power feeding

[ShadowBlade]

Maybe I should have expanded. They breed better basically means that they have an easier time raping the female. My males are powerful as hell, alongside of being huge. They manhandle. Them being more aggressive is kind of the same thing, but a little different. They don't give up at all. Just recently (less than a month ago) I was watching a breeding of mine and the male had his hooks in and was dragging the female as she tried fighting him off. My males are definitely stronger than my females.

The Sickness

Oh, okay. I thought you meant aggressive as in the searching and actual mating- aggressive. Got ya.
But you're referring to species where the male is roughly the same size legspan, if not bigger right?
Because I'd find it hard to believe with genus like Chilobrachys or Cyclosternum.

 

[AfterTheAsylum]

Good to see you back Soulsick.

I'm curious (like, genuine curiousity, no sarcasm), out of all your breedings, how many viable spiderlings have you produced thus far?

Are you talking about just T. blondi? Or are you talking about all together? I used to focus just on T. blondi, but lately I have been breeding Pamphos and Xenesthis.

The Sickness

 

[becca81]

Are you talking about just T. blondi? Or are you talking about all together? I used to focus just on T. blondi, but lately I have been breeding Pamphos and Xenesthis.

The Sickness

Just T. blondi.

 

[Nick12007]

Hey guys, I don't usually post on this forum, since I'm mainly a scorp keeper, although I do have three t's, but this sounded interesting.

What no one has said so far is the fact that increased growth of any animal shortens its lifespan. This is due simply to cell biology, where the increased replication of DNA shortens its telomeres, causing replication to falter after a certain number of telomeric shortenings. This has been studied in mice and other mammals (I can't remember the other ones). It has been found across species that increased growth leads to shorter lifespan and increased risk of cancer, while a diet made to just maintain an animal's requirements and keep it "skinny" greatly increases their lifespan.

That said, the number of molts passed by power feeding may not be as important as either the increased cellular replication (that haappens all the time, not just at each molt) or the diffusion of oxygen through the body.

Of course this is just what I would believe, and I only posted because this discussion was very interesting as I read it. And as for any advice on the matter, I would think that it's up to the keeper whether long life overall (as achieved through never power feeding), long life as an adult (as achieved through power feeding the sling + juvie), or rapid breeding (as achieved through power feeding all the way) is more important for their needs.

 

[Thoth]

Yeah man, that's the study. Like I said, I couldn't remember all the specs. I just remember reading it some time ago. It sounds correct. The idea here is that their size is limited by oxygen levels. The question I am trying to pose is if oxygen determines the amount of molts that they can go through. Or is it just that they will grow larger with each molt but still have the same amount of molts? I thought about pumping high levels of oxygen into my spider room (I have access to pure O2). What stops me from doing so is the fear that it will work. If I max out the size of say... T. blondi due to oxygen levels, and I take the pure O2 away, will it be able to sustain life?

Thank god you know what I am talking about because I didn't feel like finding it again.

Good to be back here on AB and to see you again Thoth. I'm still considering your character names for my novel by the way. Right now my character is refered to as MC (main character) or XXXXX. Rock on.

The Sickness

I'd worry more about blowing up the room accidentally because of the pure oxygen being pumped in more than what to do with a H.incei the size of a T.blondi. Well depending on how big it gets, it could potentially survive but would be very lethargic and unable to have bursts of speed or slowly sufficate to death being unable to get enough oxygen. (though I've read somewhere where a t can shrink after a molt i.e. molt to a smaller size in adverse conditions i.e. not enough food et c. Not sure of the reliability of the source though would be interesting if true,though).

I don't think number of molts was really discussed in the study though I don't remember all the details, either.

Welcome back and let me know how the novel is coming along and good luck with it.

 

[Lorgakor]

Powerfeeding doesn't just shorten a tarantulas lifespan. There are other problems associated with powerfeeding. A powerfed spider is likely going to be very fat. A fat spider has an increased chance of injury due to falling, even from a very short distance such as the walls of its cage. A fat spider can also develop ulcer like sores on the underside of its abdomen from dragging it along the substrate, as it becomes difficult for them to lift their butts off the ground to walk.

I had a chat with a spider breeder about powerfeeding. He found that when he used to powerfeed, he had a much higher mortality rate among his slings. When he stopped powerfeeding and instead switched to feeding maybe once every two weeks, the deaths were greatly reduced. I believe it was not just him, but also other breeders/taxonimists in the UK that have found the same to be true.

When I got my very first tarantulas, I was guilty of powerfeeding. I fed them several times a week. But only because I found it exciting to feed them and interact with them more regularly. My male B. smithi sling grew much faster than he should have. After being in the hobby for a while and learning all that I have, I no longer do this. My slings get fed once every week to two weeks. No they don't grow as fast, but it is a minimal difference.

H. incei would be a good spider to experiment with as well. They don't live very long to begin with, and they mature very quickly. They are small so a lot of adults wouldn't take up as much space, and they are quite cheap.

 

[ShadowBlade]

A powerfed spider is likely going to be very fat. A fat spider has an increased chance of injury due to falling, even from a very short distance such as the walls of its cage. A fat spider can also develop ulcer like sores on the underside of its abdomen from dragging it along the substrate, as it becomes difficult for them to lift their butts off the ground to walk.

There is powerfeeding, and there is 'feeding into stupidity'. And a hobbyist should know the difference. Powerfeeding is feeding on a much more then normal basis. It does not have to mean feeding all possible to fit in the spider.

 

[becca81]

I finished a 9-month experiment in May that dealt with growth rates, feeding rates, and temperature in my classroom.

I am currently working on an article about it to submit for a BTS journal, but we'll see when I actually get around to it.

@Lorgakor - I agree that H. incei is a great species to do this with. Unfortunately, they aren't as cheap in the US as they are in Canada.

 

[Lorgakor]

There is powerfeeding, and there is 'feeding into stupidity'. And a hobbyist should know the difference. Powerfeeding is feeding on a much more then normal basis. It does not have to mean feeding all possible to fit in the spider.

Not really. All the threads on here that I read on powerfeeding, is people saying they feed their spiders as much as every day. That is going to turn into one fat spider. Even those that say they feed several times a week will result in a fat spider. Most spiders are quite fat by the time they approach a moult, this seems to be normal, and they are much less active by that time. A powerfed spider that is fat well before their premoult stage is still quite active and at higher risk for injury.

What do you consider a much more than normal basis?

Becca- Thanks for the info, I didn't realize that they were more pricey in the states. That's a bummer. It's funny, usually spiders are cheaper in the states! Must be because Martin is so good at breeding them!

 

[ShadowBlade]

What do you consider a much more than normal basis?

This is difficult to say. As it depends on species, size, and specimen. People can define powerfeeding however they want. You don't have to fill it up like a water balloon.

What do you consider a much more than normal basis?

What would you define as normal?

I think of powerfeeding as speeding. Going over the speed limit is not defined with a number. Like 60mph is not the only way to speed on a 40mph road. You can be anywhere between 40.000000001-90+mph.
Like with feeding, feeding more than 'normal' is 'powerfeeding'. You can take it to the extreme, or do it moderately more.

 

[bignasty]

really informative posts guys! i may be guilty of OVERPOWERfeeding my tarantulas. i feed my g. rosea sling 2-3 pinheads per day!!!! and some of my other slings. good thing i was able to stumble upon this thread. i totally agree with what Lorgakor said about the tarantula becoming very fat and having a hard time climbing walls and walking around. I recently posted a picture of my P. scrofa eating a large cricket in the arachnogallery. After it ate the cricket, it got really fat.. and would fall twice or more while climbing its enclosure.. i got very upset and i haven't fed it for a week now.. (i'm still not feeding it till next week). thanks guys! i'll be reading more of your posts on this subject. also, how often should i feed my 1cm, 2cm and 3cm sling so that i would not be powerfeeding them? 1 cricket a week perhaps? it's just that sometimes it's so tempting to feed the tarantula when you see it coming out of its burrow and walking around the enclosure. hehe! btw, i'm new here

 

[Lorgakor]

Well, what I have found that works for me and my spiders, is not feeding more than once a week. Most often closer to two weeks. I consider feeding several times a week to be powerfeeding.
I know that people define powerfeeding in different ways, I asked what you consider to be normal, and you didn't really answer the question. I feed all species the same.

I don't even know how many powerfeeding threads I've read where people are feeding their spiders as much as they can eat. Or more usual, every other day. Are you saying this will not result in a fat spider?

Edit: I see you added some to your post. I believe the point of this thread was extreme powerfeeding. The effects it can have on spiders. If someone is only feeding a little bit more than normal, is that even really called powerfeeding? When these threads of powerfeeding pop up, usually it is about extreme feeding, several times a week or more. Or like the post above mine, several times in one day. It is to those people that my post pertained to.

 

[ShadowBlade]

I don't even know how many powerfeeding threads I've read where people are feeding their spiders as much as they can eat. Or more usual, every other day. Are you saying this will not result in a fat spider?

What most people call powerfeeding does not define the term. Especially when newbies use the term (no offense).

But when I powerfeed, it depends on the specimen. You can see when its getting fat. For an example, I have a 3" H. vonwirthi male, I'm 'powerfeeding' to get it to mature. It eats on AVERAGE 4 big criks a week. Sometimes more, sometimes none at all. I don't know what you expect me to define. It depends on alot of things.

 

[Windchaser]

Ah Windchaser. It has been such a long time since I got to comment by you. I bet you miss it.

These are all based on my own findings.
My males are always bigger when ultimate.
My males breed better.

Here is something for you all to consider. Windchaser, you might know about this. There was a British study done on molts, etc. They said that Ts only stop molting due to something with oxygen. If they had higher oxygen levels, they would still be able to grow. You see. This would make sense in what you are saying. They can grow to a point where their bodies would need more oxygen in order to grow. So if this is true, then supplying them with higher levels of oxygen would make them grow and power feeding would actually not be what shortens their life. I hope you know what I am talking about, because if not, I am going to have to look it up tomorrow.

Great to see you man. I feel like I have been gone for 6 months... which I have. Take care.

The Sickness

First, I have heard of the study but have read it yet. The down side of working 60 hour weeks.

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was that I believe size has more to do with genetics than power feeding alone. I definitely don't power feed as I rarely feed more than once a week and it is not uncommon for me to go two weeks. I have had some males mature which were actually quite large. Recently I sent my mature male B. boehmei to Botar. Bruce and Bill from The Theraphosid Breeding Project saw him as well. All three of them commented that this male was one of the largest males they have seen. He easily topped the six inch mark. So, I am not convinced that power feeding alone will increase the size of a tarantula.

Welcome back BTW.

 

[cacoseraph]

a couple clarifications to ppl who are attempting to define powerfeeding according to feeding frequency... that is close, but still not enough data

to really make useful distinctions you would need to know (average all):
1)frequency of feeding
2)size of feeders
3)number of feeders per feeding
4)size of prey in relation to spider

there is probably another characteristic or two... but if you don't explicitly state at least those four feeding attributes there is absolutely no point in comparing.

a concrete example... ppl are talking about feeing a pinhead a day. if they are feeding that to a 1/2" sling that is probably fairly insane powerfeeding... but if they were feeding that to a 3-4" P. murinus (a high metabolism species, imo) they would be starving it

another example still talkign about feeding a pin (which weighs 5-10% as much as the spider) a day... well, what if i feed just once a week... but feed a roach that weighs as much as the spider. my frequency is less, but my absolute level of feeding is more

edit:

also, i have been runnign a feeding experiment for about 16-18 months now. so far all powergrown specinmen (defined as getting about an average of 4 times as much food as the "thin" group in the same average period of time) were larger than their thin counterparts. this certainly doesn't answer the life length question, of course
part one, a couple months in
part two, about a year in

edit2: and yes, my sample size has dropped too low... but what can you do? also, i have more molt dates but i need to bring them from home to work and enter them in my spread sheet, then email them back to myself to enter into my webpage =P

 

[Lorgakor]

Very good point cacoseraph.

 

[krtrman]

I am not aware of any official studies published on the matter but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to confirm that power feeding does indeed increase the molting frequency of tarantulas which in turn decreases the over all life span. Just look at the examples of where people raised a Brachypelma spp. male to maturity in two or three years by power feeding when under normal circumstances it takes at least five years.

It is up to the individual to decide if they want to do it or not but it doesn't make much sense to dispute the results. You contradict yourself by saying it is only inferred and then follow up with stating people do it to bypass slow growth. Whether it is harmful in ways other than shortening the life span is unknown, but suggest that it doesn't actually shorten the life span is ridiculous.

i dont believe that i was disputing results. and i never said that it did not shorten life span.

i was simply stating that power feeding a sling would make other stages come sooner. and as to other effects of further stages it is simply unknown.

i was just giving the information that there are those that power feed in order to rear slings faster so that they display their adult colors sooner.

i could care less how someone else feeds their tarantulas.

i was trying to be helpful by giving what i knew to be the origin of powerfeeding.

 

[Duc de Blangis]

I just powerfed myself a pizza and now i'm afraid i'm going to moult early.