power feeding pros and cons?

[Code Monkey]

You call me silly for saying...

Instead of giving me any evidence that supports your claim that our life expectancy is decreased as our metabolism increases

No, I'm just not continuing this. You aren't doing a thing for anyone except yourself. I answer questions to help people, not so I can feed the fevered egos of some alleged profs out there who feel like turning this into an oral exam for a grad student.

I am 100% confident in the core accuracy of everything I said in thread as it applies to the hobby. I will not be bothering trying to publish this in the journals because it merely logical deduction from other principles, it does not need to rise to that sort of level of peer-review proofness now or ever.

If you want to do some good, how about taking this level of jackassness to the people that make claims about humidity and moulting problems or calcium & mineral dusting their feeder insects instead of nitpicking over a point you know damn well is almost certainly correct even if it is an "untested hypotheses".

 

[TroyMcClureOG82]

I said in my first post that I agree with you man, read it again if you didn't catch it. I wasn't even trying to start an argument with you I was just trying to give you a heads up that unless you have some sort of profound evidence people are going to argue with you. That's how science works. You being a student of science yourself (not sure how extensive your education is, but all scientists are students of science) should know this.

"If you want to do some good, how about taking this level of jackassness to the people that make claims about humidity and moulting problems or calcium & mineral dusting their feeder insects instead of nitpicking over a point you know damn well is almost certainly correct even if it is an "untested hypotheses"."

First off there is no need for name calling. Secondly I would but I already know my words will fall on deaf ears. That's something I would have thought you would learn by now.

BTW I not only tagged the monkey I spanked it. A public depantsing if you will. Now i'm going to spank it one more time before getting some sleep.

 

[ORION_DV8]

The thing is CM i actually agree with you, to me it seems quite elementary that if you raise the metabolic rate of an organism in addition to also raising available food supply, you will naturally not only reach maturity faster, but also affect lifespan due to aging the tissue much faster. The candle that burns brightest burns shortest. My only problem is the fact that if one were to conduct the experiment in an attempt to prove it would take a very very long time and you would need a huge sample size so as to negate some of the confounds.
ORION

 

[Code Monkey]

The thing is CM i actually agree with you, to me it seems quite elementary that if you raise the metabolic rate of an organism in addition to also raising available food supply, you will naturally not only reach maturity faster, but also affect lifespan due to aging the tissue much faster.

I didn't really have a problem with your post beyond clarifying where the variability issue came into play. And if I came off a bit harshly, it wasn't you. First, I watched a man I regard as a mass murderer elected for the first time, largely on America's belief in his superior morality, into the office he currently holds only by virtue of political corruption.

Then, a topic that has *never* become controversial suddenly does because everybody feels like arguing against common sense AND science. People come onto the board to learn, not to see people that pick fights just to pick them. I may be "the nadkicker" but I only swing my foot where there's a valid target. I don't decide to argue journal publication standards in a thread, and I don't take a contrary p.o.v. just to be contrary unless it's in the W.H. where debate for debate's sake has its place.

Of course, this was proceeded by a bunch of people upping the ante and annoyance with the "You can't *prove* that tarantulas are NOT conscious and emotional so therefore I've *proved* you're wrong when you claim they can't feel pain, nyah, nyah, nyah, nyaaaaaah! " in the Fear Factor thread.

So much willful obstinance it the world is wearing my nerves a bit thin

 

[Wade]

However, feeding is one of the lesser factors for determining metabolism, temperature is going to be much more critical.

I think this factor has been kind of lost in the nit-pick-o-rama, but I think it's pretty important in context to the question that was originally asked. I realize it has been mentioned, but I'm bringing it up because the topic has swung away from where it started.

Powerfeeding WITHOUT a corresponding boost in temperature isn'y going to speed anything up, and shouldn't shorten lifespan (unless it's the result of an obese spider not being able to molt properly). It might effect the ultimate size the spider attains (I'm not even sure about that), but not the amount of time it takes to reach maturity.

So, this argument is really about speeding up the metabolism, not necesarily about the effects of feeding a spider a lot. This probably seems obvious to many of you, but I'm just tossing that out there for the sake of the newbies who might not have picked up on that.

I have very little scientific training, but I like to think I have a fair amount of practical invertebrate rearing experience. Common sense tells me that if you jack up the metabolism of a tarantula by raising the temperature and feeding heavily, you ARE going to shorten the lifespan of the animal. Let's say I have a number of 1st instar spiderlings of a given species. If the temperature in my animal room stayed a constant 75 degrees (I wish!), I've learned that this species typically takes 4 years to mature. I decide that I want some of them to mature faster, so I set up a heated chamber (lets say 85 degrees) and move half of them into it and feed them heavily. Lets say the warmed group matures in 2 years. Now that they've reached a large size, I remove them from the chamber and they go back to being 75 degrees around the clock. These spiders may still have an ADULT lifespan that's equal to the unheated ones, but the TOTAL lifespan will still be shorter by the two years I cut out of their development time by speeding them up.

The only way around this is if it's discovered that tarantulas don't age, which is not likley (I did read an article indicating that this may be the case for turtles, though). If you think of lifespan as a cassette tape, raising the metabolism to get quick growth is like hitting the fast foreward button. It simply has to reduce the total playing time.

So, what does that mean to us as hobbyists? Considering the very long life many tarantula females can ultimately live, an accelerated childhood might not make a noticable difference. If these spiders were a long lived species from a genus like Brachypelma, Aphonopelma or Grammostola, it might not even be noticeable in the long run. Assuming I keep all the spiders (and that I live long enough to observe the whole life span), is it really going to matter that the unaccelerated group lived an average of 35 years, while the accelerated group lives an avearage of 33 years? Variables between individuals would probably blur the disinctions between the two groups anyway, and without crunching the numbers it may be completely invisible.

On the other hand, if it were a shorter lived species from a genera like Poecilotheria or Avicularia, the shortened lifespan might be VERY noticable, and speeding them up could diminsh the enjoyment I got from them. Something to consider for those of you investing in P. metallica, maybe you DON'T want them to get big so fast.

I don't think the comparison between the fat person with a slow metaboloism vs. the thin person with the fast one hold up very well. The fat person's problems relate to being overweight, not to metabolism itself. A skinny person with a slow metabolism probably would, in fact, live longer than a skinny person with a fast metabolism.

One final point. Recently, I was visiting a friend of mine who is the curator of the insect zoo at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences. I noticed that the holding area was kept very cool, probably around 70 degrees. I remarked on this, and he told me that "everything just seems to live longer that way". Pretty much says it all!

Wade

 

[Randolph XX()]

sounds like i started a big debate
any pro-breeders and dealers here on the board wanna say something?

 

[Anansi]

You aren't worth arguing with, go back to high school. Professor T may have been an annoying PIA, but at least he had some technicalities on his side as opposed to a gross misunderstanding of what being ectothermic had to do with an animal

First of all, Code Monkey you obviously missed my point...TroyMclure found it...I will paste it for you...

"His point was that tarantulas have survived for thousands of years through many climatic changes. Even today they survive in varying climates. There is no evidence that suggest that modern tarantula species in cooler climates live longer live than species living in warmer climates. There is also no conclusive evidence to suggest that tarantula species lived longer lives in cooler climates in the past." - Troymclure

Second of all...You clearly have extensive knowledge on invertebrates...Whether its experiential, or you're learning it in school, or you're just regurgitating information from a text...However, you are seriously lacking in the area of being able to relate this information to common hobbyists on a message board without coming off as pompous, arrogant, and/ or just a plain <arsehole - edit CM>...If you were just a member, I would disregard your condescending manner in which you reply to posts...However, you are a moderator and I think that comes with certain responsibilties...Namely, not insulting people who are just trying to learn more on the subject...

Third...Science works on the dispoof of its theories...So to make some sweeping generalization that because it applies to animals it applies to invertebrates and act like thats the end all fo the argument is a bit ridiculous...You admitted that metabolism/ temperature/ lifespan (in tarantulas) has not been scientifically tested and so until it is..It is a moot point..

Thanks

 

[TroyMcClureOG82]

I'm no professional or expert, but all I can say is that in the long run power feeding your T isn't going to do any real harm unless they take a big fall and burst. Power feeding will make them mature faster which may or may not decrease their life expectancy. In a hobby that is in need of more captive breeding I see nothing wrong with increasing the growth rate of juveniles. We need more captive raised adults in the hobby as it is. If everybody power fed their Ts and got them to reach maturity faster, combined with succesful breeding; there would be much less need for collecting Ts in the wild.

 

[Code Monkey]

However, you are seriously lacking in the area of being able to relate this information to common hobbyists on a message board without coming off as pompous, arrogant, and/ or just a plain <arsehole>...If you were just a member, I would disregard your condescending manner in which you reply to posts...However, you are a moderator and I think that comes with certain responsibilties...Namely, not insulting people who are just trying to learn more on the subject...

Well, I don't think that just because someone is an unpaid, volunteer moderator that they suddenly give up their right to have their own take on things. I didn't come by "King Nadkicker" because of my diplomatic manner. You can take it with a grain of salt, you can get offended. If I really go off the deepend you can expect that I will get my own tongue lashing from they-who-rule and then there is no come back to that, I will have been served.

However, until I try to use my moderator status to actually silence you or otherwise prevent you from having your say, we're just both taking part in the discussion. When I start getting paid to be here and when you start paying a subscription fee then we can start turning this into the supervisor job at Wal-Mart.

 

[Anansi]

Well, I don't think that just because someone is an unpaid, volunteer moderator that they suddenly give up their right to have their own take on things. I didn't come by "King Nadkicker" because of my diplomatic manner. You can take it with a grain of salt, you can get offended. If I really go off the deepend you can expect that I will get my own tongue lashing from they-who-rule and then there is no come back to that, I will have been served.

However, until I try to use my moderator status to actually silence you or otherwise prevent you from having your say, we're just both taking part in the discussion. When I start getting paid to be here and when you start paying a subscription fee then we can start turning this into the supervisor job at Wal-Mart.

Thanks

 

[Anansi]

Code Monkey ok back on topic...Does the tarantula's physiology play into the metabolism/ growth ratio...I ask because look at king baboons; they are notoriously slow growers...I dont know if any amount of power feeding will make them mature faster...Then you look at something like salmon pink birdeaters...They grow fast regardless...You'd agree that there are variations between genus' right?

 

[Code Monkey]

Code Monkey ok back on topic...Does the tarantula's physiology play into the metabolism/ growth ratio...I ask because look at king baboons; they are notoriously slow growers...I dont know if any amount of power feeding will make them mature faster...Then you look at something like salmon pink birdeaters...They grow fast regardless...You'd agree that there are variations between genus' right?

Sure, I never said there wasn't. I'm not entirely sure why this particular topic has become such a huge morass (although my grumpy mood post-election probably didn't help ).

All I tried to say, which got lost in a lot of pointless nitpicking, is that if you have a tarantula that has the genetics to go, say, 38-42 total instars, and you do *something* to accelerate the rate it goes through instars, that you get a faster growing but faster ending tarantula.

Powerfeeding only increases metabolism a small amount (you wind up with a fat tarantula without the corresponding increase in temp).

So, to look at your example of C. crawshayi and L. parahybana, you can speed both of their developments up via increased food & temp, but you're still limited by their individual genetics. An accelerated KB is still not going to grow at a the same rate as an average PS no matter what.

 

[Anansi]

^^I think the whole thread was alluding to the points you just summed up nicely...

 

[jw73]

If everybody power fed their Ts and got them to reach maturity faster, combined with succesful breeding; there would be much less need for collecting Ts in the wild.

I agree and I like power feeding (big, happy butts).

 

[ShaunHolder]

Code Monkey. I like you, and I love reading you're posts. You are much more well read and educated on the subject than I am. I have noticed you have become very selfish latley with you're posts. Making personal attacks, and telling people thier being stupid and making also personal attacks on intelligence using words like twit.

I find that upsetting. It might just be me and Im not demanding you stop, but I will ask you to use it with moderation. It's obviously upsetting the people you are insulting, and it's leading to pointless arguments and taking away from the threads.