Possible Black Widow Bite

[Houseal]

I didn't see it. Was cleaning a 4" drain filled with debris. I had on very thin kitchen gloves because it was 90-something degrees. While cleaning the drain of leaves, soil and rock (which were only partially filling it), I felt a slight sting and thought, 'Hm. Maybe I shouldn't be reaching in here.' 10 minutes later, my pinky started tingling, then went numb, started swelling and turned red. Within 20 minutes it felt like a blister, but I saw no tooth marks. I went to the Dr., and they said I'd def. been bitten by something - looked spider-like. It wasn't until around 1a.m. that the real symptoms started: I woke up in a pool of sweat, nauseated and feeling like my heart was going to pop out of my chest. Muscle cramps in stomach, lower back, calf muscles and foot. This lasted for several hours, and I should have gone to the ER, but I couldn't get up. This morning, I called my friend at the zoo who is in charge of reptiles and arachnids. He said it sounds like classic black widow symptoms and sent me back to Dr. My question is, can a black widow bite through thin rubber kitchen gloves? It was my pinky. I filled it with water, and don't see a leak there, but something definitely bit me. I did have on gardening gloves before I did the drain. Switched to rubber due to mud. Maybe then bite occurred prior to drain work? Thanks for any info. and sorry for the long post. - P.S. I'm sorry this isn't tarantula or scorpion related. I do love Ts, but after seeing my mom stung by a scorpion in OK, I'm scared to death of them. Sorry

 

[Anoplogaster]

Sounds like it. But yeah, the rubber glove is what’s confusing me. The only possibility I can think of is maybe the spider was actually inside the glove before you put them on. And, with enough agitation, finally decided to bite you.

 

[AngelDeVille]

She was hiding in one of the pairs of gloves.
If you want, carefully check the gardening and rubber gloves. Don't get bit again!

You could easily find a carcass, as you may have crushed her.

 

[Houseal]

She was hiding in one of the pairs of gloves.
If you want, carefully check the gardening and rubber gloves. Don't get bit again!

You could easily find a carcass, as you may have crushed her.

I checked the rubber gloves, but didn't find anything. I'm kinda scared - given last night - to check the garden gloves. Still, I hope I didn't kill her. Wasn't her fault. Just really stinks for me, because those suckers don't play! I think I'm over the worst of it, but I've been through child birth and a broken knee cap. This was right up there.

 

[pannaking22]

It's an odd case, but I doubt it was a widow bite (though I admit I don't know what it could have been). Unless you have the spider and saw it bite you, it's likely something else. If you find a widow, live or dead, in the glove then I take it all back, because those symptoms sound about right. They wouldn't be able to bite through rubber gloves.

A doctor saying it was a spider bite doesn't mean a thing because they categorize basically anything they don't know as a spider bite. I've gone in for routine checkups and had them diagnose mosquito bites, chiggers, and stinging nettle rashes as spider bites. They may be doctors, but they aren't arachnologists and they should know better than to diagnose unknowns as something so unlikely. (Apologies for the tangent/rant, that's one of those things that has always gotten on my nerves).

 

[AngelDeVille]

Bites are extremely rare, but you could be one of the lucky ones!

Isn't it like less than 10 reported/confirmed per year?

It's small despite the fact that I could capture at least 5 in a few minutes around/outside my house.

 

[Houseal]

It's an odd case, but I doubt it was a widow bite (though I admit I don't know what it could have been). Unless you have the spider and saw it bite you, it's likely something else. If you find a widow, live or dead, in the glove then I take it all back, because those symptoms sound about right. They wouldn't be able to bite through rubber gloves.

A doctor saying it was a spider bite doesn't mean a thing because they categorize basically anything they don't know as a spider bite. I've gone in for routine checkups and had them diagnose mosquito bites, chiggers, and stinging nettle rashes as spider bites. They may be doctors, but they aren't arachnologists and they should know better than to diagnose unknowns as something so unlikely. (Apologies for the tangent/rant, that's one of those things that has always gotten on my nerves).

I'm with you. I read a 2015 article that says other arachnids outside of the widow family also carry latrotoxins, but more diluted. I think I either got a mild dose of a widow due to gloves, or a major dose of venom from another spider, perhaps in my gloves. Either way, there seems to be agreement that a widow can't penetrate thin rubber gloves. I hate that I may have crushed a spider, but can guarantee I suffered sufficient punishment. Y'all be careful with these babies, because a spider's smite is no joke. Thanks for the info. and feedback.

Bites are extremely rare, but you could be one of the lucky ones!

Isn't it like less than 10 reported/confirmed per year?

It's small despite the fact that I could capture at least 5 in a few minutes around/outside my house.

I totally agree. The only difference is that I wasn't in "capture" mode. I didn't see it, so I must have irritated, squished or threatened whatever bit me, and I've seen them around here before in similar moist, debris-filled areas. Oh well, whatever is was got some payback on me. Just hope it ends soon.

I totally agree. The only difference is that I wasn't in "capture" mode. I didn't see it, so I must have irritated, squished or threatened whatever bit me, and I've seen them around here before in similar moist, debris-filled areas. Oh well, whatever is was got some payback on me. Just hope it ends soon.

Does anyone know of other arachnids/insects that cause the same reaction? I checked both pairs of gloves. Nothing. I guess I'm just curious what could have caused such an awful reaction. Forgot to mention that my Blood Pressure at the Drs. Office was 155/93, and my heart rate was 157. They were about to call an ambulance, but I took a few deep breaths and asked them to check again. Next time BP was 135/83, HR was 122, so I convinced them not to send me to ER. Maybe dumb, but I truly felt like the worst was over.

 

[The Snark]

155/93? 157? 135/83? 122? How did anyone arrive at a pulse of 157 and 122?

 

[Garth Vader]

Wow! Scary! Glad you are okay.

I found a black window -or- a false widow in my garden box/ trunk this weekend. I tried to find a marking but it skittered off and I didn't want to mess with it more. Anyway, it reminded me of ALL OF THE TIMES I have been digging around in there without gloves on with my 3 year old daughter right next to me. And you are reminding me of the importance of being really careful. I will be more diligent about checking my gloves and shoes before putting them on, and only going into the shed or garden box with my gloves on!

 

[The Snark]

While most of this post is pure bollocks, it is curious why the edema is confined entirely distal beyond the DIP joint. I'd make an initial assessment that the MOI was blunt force trauma. Profusion from venom would be unlikely to be occluded in this fashion. That the edema is so evenly diffused also contraindicates a bite or sting.
If it was some chemical agent as the cause would it be possible for a widow to produce enough venom to cause this effect from topical exposure? Some other irritant substance seems more likely.

 

[Houseal]

155/93? 157? 135/83? 122? How did anyone arrive at a pulse of 157 and 122?

Your name is befitting, Snark. Hope you're satisfied to be the first critical, and least helpful, participant in the post. The BPM came from my apple watch. I can't guarantee it's right. Simply quoting what I saw. I asked the Dr. to verify that it was even possible. They checked, and that's when they considered the ambulance. Are you a Dr.? The 155/93 was from their blood pressure machine. So was the 135/83. If you are a Dr., you should know that these numbers are possible. I'm not a liar and I'm not an idiot. I'm also not going to be intimidated by some anonymous, cowardly, judgemental "snark." I was simply asking a question of the seemingly knowledgeable people on this forum. Do you really think I'd join this group just to make up lies? I've provided all the information I possibly can. Get off your high horse and get a life. Everyone else here has been incredibly kind, concerned and helpful. I hope you never have to suffer what I did last night - even if you are a jerk.
P.S. Just checked your profile. You're either seven years old or a liar. Either way, I'm blocking you.

 

[The Snark]

@Houseal How did they arrive at a pulse of 157 and 122? If I wrote that on an initial report the EMS would flag me in a day. Were you on a continuous monitor? No, you had them take it again.

I may be a jerk. I certainly am a Snark. But I am also a paramed with 30+ years under me. If I'm wrong, I would desperately love to hear about it and add the info to my knowledge base.

Latro bites. The wart like nevus on my first knuckle is also a widow bite from 40 years ago. Oddly, the new (red) one is still visible as a de-pigmented area about 12 years later.

 

[Houseal]

@Houseal How did they arrive at a pulse of 157 and 122? If I wrote that on an initial report the EMS would flag me in a day. Were you on a continuous monitor? No, you had them take it again.

I may be a jerk. I certainly am a Snark. But I am also a paramed with 30+ years under me. If I'm wrong, I would desperately love to hear about it and add the info to my knowledge base.

Latro bites. The wart like nevus on my first knuckle is also a widow bite from 40 years ago. Oddly, the new (red) one is still visible as a de-pigmented area about 12 years later.

I already told you the 157 and 122 BPMs were from my watch. You'll have to ask Bill Gates about accuracy. Perhaps you missed the part - which was, in fact, the whole purpose of my post - whether or not a black widow could puncture a thin kitchen glove. I wasn't saying it was a widow. I was asking if that was possible, because every single symptom matched, as did the habitat. I'm not trying to prove I was bitten by anything specific. MDs and PhDs are equally confused because the habitat and symptoms are consistent with a black widow, but the rubber glove is an anomaly - hence my post to find out if anyone else had been bitten through a glove. I don't have that kind of scar or wound, but something definitely bit me, and it caused a latro-reaction. If I learn anything, I'll let you know. Here's my conversation with the PhD and head of arachnids and reptiles at our local zoo. Given the circumstances and environment, he (a PhD) and two separate MDs both think it was a mild bite from a black widow that pierced the glove and gave me a dose of venom, but the glove, thankfully, blocked a full bite. I have no idea. I just know my symptoms last night were extremely scary, my BP and HR were off the charts, I had major stomach issues and cramping, and I'd like to know whether black widows can puncture a glove. That's all. Be nice. I respect your service and knowledge as a paramed. Please don't question my experience. Like I said, I'm not here to tell lies. I'm here to gain information.

I already told you the 157 and 122 BPMs were from my watch. You'll have to ask Bill Gates about accuracy. Perhaps you missed the part - which was, in fact, the whole purpose of my post - whether or not a black widow could puncture a thin kitchen glove. I wasn't saying it was a widow. I was asking if that was possible, because every single symptom matched, as did the habitat. I'm not trying to prove I was bitten by anything specific. MDs and PhDs are equally confused because the habitat and symptoms are consistent with a black widow, but the rubber glove is an anomaly - hence my post to find out if anyone else had been bitten through a glove. I don't have that kind of scar or wound, but something definitely bit me, and it caused a latro-reaction. If I learn anything, I'll let you know. Here's my conversation with the PhD and head of arachnids and reptiles at our local zoo. Given the circumstances and environment, he (a PhD) and two separate MDs both think it was a mild bite from a black widow that pierced the glove and gave me a dose of venom, but the glove, thankfully, blocked a full bite. I have no idea. I just know my symptoms last night were extremely scary, my BP and HR were off the charts, I had major stomach issues and cramping, and I'd like to know whether black widows can puncture a glove. That's all. Be nice. I respect your service and knowledge as a paramed. Please don't question my experience. Like I said, I'm not here to tell lies. I'm here to gain information.

My apologies. Numbers were high, but my exact digits were confused.

 

[The Snark]

Okay. You counted 122 and 157 beats, timing it for one full minute. I'm impressed and apologize if that was the case.
So the issue is if the widow could penetrate gloves and skin, or just the gloves and infuse venom on the skin if that would cause the effect. Can you explain why the edema is confined distally at the DIP joint? Were you keeping that finger flexed or applying pressure or tourniquet of some sort? Was there any indication whatever of puncture wound(s).
Understand, it's an odd injury as described. The MOI is more indicative of a chemical or a burn, or forcible trauma. As to how it would go systemic and produce typical neurological symptoms as you described, that is interesting. A neurotoxin is indicated and Latrovenin is a powerful one though I've never heard of it entering the blood stream through topical infusion.
BTW, your symptoms as described were very similar to my own and are textbook classical. Time duration varies drastically however. Incipient is recorded in less than 5 minutes on out to a probable of around 72 hours.

BTW, I've encountered symptoms as you described several times in the past couple of years from Paraquat inhalation. Is it possible the finger is a red herring and you came into contact with an herbicide or other nasty chemical?

 

[Tarantula155]

Given the story, I really doubt it's a black widow bite. But who knows.

I agree with Snark, that you likely came in contact with a strong chemical.

 

[pannaking22]

Your name is befitting, Snark. Hope you're satisfied to be the first critical, and least helpful, participant in the post. The BPM came from my apple watch. I can't guarantee it's right. Simply quoting what I saw. I asked the Dr. to verify that it was even possible. They checked, and that's when they considered the ambulance. Are you a Dr.? The 155/93 was from their blood pressure machine. So was the 135/83. If you are a Dr., you should know that these numbers are possible. I'm not a liar and I'm not an idiot. I'm also not going to be intimidated by some anonymous, cowardly, judgemental "snark." I was simply asking a question of the seemingly knowledgeable people on this forum. Do you really think I'd join this group just to make up lies? I've provided all the information I possibly can. Get off your high horse and get a life. Everyone else here has been incredibly kind, concerned and helpful. I hope you never have to suffer what I did last night - even if you are a jerk.
P.S. Just checked your profile. You're either seven years old or a liar. Either way, I'm blocking you.

There's really no need to be that defensive over any of this. While this is the internet and it's hard to tell a person's tone (really hard in some cases), jumping into hypersensitive mode doesn't help. Wanting clarification and verification isn't a bad thing. The more info provided and checked the better because it can help solve a puzzle, especially one such as this. You've got an odd case and the human memory tends to be poor, so double checking is good. The Snark is also in the medical field, as opposed to the bulk of us here that aren't, so he would know more on this than the rest of us. Shoot, the overwhelming majority don't even have any entomological background, they just like arthropods. But they can provide good information too, and anything that doesn't seem right gets verified and corrected if need be.

As for joining Arachnoboards to make up lies, this is the internet. I hate to say it, but it's a place that's full of lies and shreds of information that need to be checked. AB is pretty good about closing down scammers, but sometimes they or general troublemakers get through. Considering that you took the time to write out a full post and have responded with photos/emails/etc. (instead of just posting some spam link and that's it), I don't think anyone is accusing you of lying. And the most important thing at the end of all of this is that you're ok.

Somewhat unrelated, but I don't think I realized you could block people on here. Good to know, thanks for that!

Had to go way back to pesticide certification and all that, but yeah, I think I'm in the chemical boat as well.

 

[The Snark]

I'm going to clarify my reaction to the original post and make this generic for suspected bites. This is NOT personal, purely professional.

"10 minutes later, my pinky started tingling, then went numb, started swelling and turned red. Within 20 minutes it felt like a blister, but I saw no tooth marks. I went to the Dr., and they said I'd def. been bitten by something - looked spider-like."
-Numbness: Contraindicates typical bites where pain, usually burning and or itching is normal.
-Definitely bitten: Not indicated. Without bite marks this is purely conjecture. A physician can say your finger has turned into Gouda cheese without fear of recourse.

"It wasn't until around 1a.m. that the real symptoms started: I woke up in a pool of sweat, nauseated and feeling like my heart was going to pop out of my chest. Muscle cramps in stomach, lower back, calf muscles and foot. This lasted for several hours, and I should have gone to the ER, but I couldn't get up."
-Diaphoresis, 'bounding' pulse and muscle cramping. General toxin symptoms. Nothing specific. An ER would order blood tests and observe, treating symptomatically.

"This morning, I called my friend at the zoo who is in charge of reptiles and arachnids. He said it sounds like classic black widow symptoms."
-Or several thousand chemicals and onset of a few hundred viral infections. So far no specific neurotoxin symptoms mentioned: Tremors, loss of coordination, respiratory distress. Take tests and observe.

"my Blood Pressure at the Drs. Office was 155/93, and my heart rate was 157. They were about to call an ambulance, but I took a few deep breaths and asked them to check again."
-Pulse follows BP. No shock indicated. Tachycardia possibly indicative of anxiety. Retaking vitals and significant reduction noted bears out tentative anxiety conjecture. Without respirations and overall physical appearance assessment nothing further can be diagnosed.


As for the original question, can a black widow bite through gloves, the odds are against it. However, in the field of emergency medicine we are taught to never assume or presume. From experience I would say it is within the realm of possibility, or exposure to some other toxin, and lacking a full assessment with charting, I'd put the odds around 100,000 to 1 against it. Take tests and observe.

I'm often reminded of a case a Doc told me about where a patient complained of chronic lower back and hip pain, sometimes radiating, that had gone on for weeks. Work related injury was tentatively diagnosed. A full thoracic x-ray AP-Lat revealed a .22 bullet lodged next to T6 in a rib. The moral of that story is everyone missed the smoking gun.


"Jumping to a conclusion in a medical diagnosis blinds you to possibilities and renders your thinking invalid. Never attempt to fit the symptoms to a specific diagnosis. Get the facts. Let the symptoms guide you while leaving the diagnosis open." -Dr. Jeff Minckler, pre-eminent neuro pathologist.