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Pokies going higher in price?

Discussion in 'Tarantula Chat' started by rosehaired1979, Feb 8, 2004.

  1. da_illest

    da_illest Arachnoprince

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    hey how come people are having difficulty breedeing certain species? breeding doesn't seem to be all that hard... personally i've never tried it yet but i'm itching too! hopefully i can get two mature t's soon! or maybe a mature male g. rose to mate with my female... have people tried manually incubating them in a store bought bought incubator that rotates the sac few times a day for you and keeps temp and humidity at a constant?
     
  2. Code Monkey

    Code Monkey Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    I don't have time to respond in depth, but if that's your assessment of breeding, you need to do a lot more reading on the subject. There are species that might only produce a fertile sac once out of a dozen breedings, and then there's mites, mold, mom eating the sac, mom making the sac wrong, there's gravid females that won't drop a sac unless some as yet not understood environmental trigger is presented...
     
  3. phormingochilus

    phormingochilus Arachnoangel Old Timer

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Figures

    I don't think you can isolate the hype in that way, all the positive aspects about the spider together with the mutual communication of hobbyists made possible via the net composes the hype - thus you are right in assuming that both colours, habits, and husbandry requirements (together with size and rarity) shape the final demand - but in my eyes not "more than any 'hype'" as all of these parameters are integrated parts of the hype.

    I am also sure you have noticed how picture posts effect the other hobbyists? ... "I have to add that one to my wishlist" ... "Ouch - there's another must have for me" etc etc - this is an important part of the hype as well.

    So in other words - us hobbyists and our cravings are feeding the hype and thus contribute to raising the prices - the more hobbyists wanting something that is only produced in so many numbers inevitably effect the price - that's basic economy.

    Best regards
    Søren
     
  4. phormingochilus

    phormingochilus Arachnoangel Old Timer

    When you reach the point of the eggsac the rest is easy and don't even bother buying the prefab incubators they are honestly plain overkill. There are other and simpler ways - search this site for advise on the construction of dirt cheap and top efficient incubators.

    The difficult part is to get a succesful mating and more difficult to induce egg laying behaviour (including imitating dry season/wet season cyclusses, hibernation patterns etc etc- in other words you need to do your home work right) in the female. Some species breed like dirt - and you will notice that those are also in the cheap range on the price lists. Species within the genera Avicularia, Pterinochilus, Lasiodora, Acanthoscurria, Hysterocrates, Chilobrachys all comes to mind. Whereas species from genera like the mentioned Poecilotheria and Xenesthis, Megaphobema, Theraphosa, Sericopelma, Cithariscius, Cyriopagopus and one heck of a lot more are harder to breed and thus can reach pretty high prices. One exception among many cheaply sold species are Grammostola spp. which needs a cool hibernation period in order to induce egg laying and thus are hard to breed but which are usually sold pretty cheap due to massive imports of wild caught adult animals

    Best regards
    Søren
     
  5. Aviculariinae

    Aviculariinae Arachnoangel Old Timer

    I wish my avics would breed like dirt Ive got a versicolor that i bred in early december and the stubborn girl still hasnt dropped a sack LOL:? :D :) ;)
     
  6. some observations

    I do try to stay out of these discussions since I usually end up saying more than I should but I'm pretty close to this subject and thought I might be able shed a little light on it.

    In a nutshell it is 'supply and demand' or rather should be 'demand and supply.' Everything else mentioned revolves around this and price is set accordingly. Demand for Pokies began to rise as the P. miranda hit the market over a year ago and hit a frenzy with P. metallica last year. Unfortunately, both were hyped by dealers that in many cases never actually got them to sell. The European breeders saw this hype and set their prices accordingly which essentially meant that US importers/dealers had to pay a price pretty close to the European retail price. This alone didn't create a demand for all Pokies but Andrew Smith's presentations at last summer's ATS Conference in Carlsbad fanned the smouldering embers of Pokie Desire and as the attendees fanned out across the US the demand began to rise significantly. Demand for some other species (B. smithi, T. blondi) is much higher but supply meets that demand which keeps the price down. The same with P. regalis, P. fasciata and P. ornata - there’s a relatively high demand but supply keeps the price down. With P. metallica, P. miranda, P. subfusca the demand is actually not that high but the very limited supply forces the price up. And, in all fairness, the prices should be higher if they were priced like other spiders in the market but their crazy wholesale prices put a practical limit on just how high the retail price can be. No dealer is going to get rich on these expensive spiderlings and all it takes to lose all your mark up is for one to die. As for authenticity of a given species any reputable dealer would not hesitate to explain where they came from nor would they hesitate to replace one if it was found to be the wrong species at a later date.
     
  7. Code Monkey

    Code Monkey Arachnoemperor Old Timer

    Re: some observations

    Thanks for the reply, John, I always look forwarding to hearing from you on these sorts of matters.
     
  8. Steve Nunn

    Steve Nunn Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Re: some observations

    Yes, marketing of the Pokes was handled very well by those who felt it a good thing. No more comment on this though ;)

    Here's something that intrigues me greatly, the first lot were cheaper then this next lot?? My first thought would be that the first lot came from gravid wild caught spiders, not "captive breeding". I mean if I were a collector who actually knew a little about the annual cycle of these spiders (and from what I understand the collectors know an awful lot about them), I'd naturally go over and collect them when there's a good chance the females will be gravid. To think they didn't would be strange to say the least.

    Maybe I'm off course, I dunno.....
     
  9. LaRiz

    LaRiz Arachnodemon Old Timer

    PA
    Re: Re: some observations

    Steve,
    Without revealing the top secret, G14 classified, monetary units ;), I didn't see it that way. For me, it was cheaper this time around.
    john
     
  10. Re: Re: some observations

    Cheaper is a relative term.
    However, this lot is more expensive simply because the first lot lit the fire of demand and supply still can't feed it. The original wildcaughts were essentially smuggled out in the first place and there is not much of a chance that anyone could go back and get more. There were not many brought out either so it's going to take a while for captive breeding to build up to a level where it can satisfy demand. Watch for overall Pokie demand to continue to rise as we get closer to the publication of Smith's book on the genus Poecilotheria. It's probably still a year or more away but anyone that heard him at Carlsbad will tell you it's going to be a fabulous addition to the body of tarantula literature.
     
  11. spyderguy1983

    spyderguy1983 Arachnosquire Old Timer

    E-spiderworld,
    Thanks for all your insight on this subject.
     
  12. phormingochilus

    phormingochilus Arachnoangel Old Timer

    Re: Re: some observations

    I _believe_ that the first lot were cheaper than the next lot because the max possible price weren't reached - though the dealer thought so. So seeing the horridly priced animals being swept away would make any dealer wonder if they could go for more ...

    As for the collecting of gravid females or females with eggsacs - I'd say that's the only logical step to consider when arranging for a collecting trip, thus you'll also ascertain that there are different "seasons" for collecting different species ... again this takes some considerable insights into the animals concerned from the collectors part ... or a few trial and error trips ... thus captive hatched spiderlings usually also effects the price in a negative direction - but in rare cases - like in this one - I don't think that's the case even though the first batch were likely captive hatched not captive bred.

    Søren
     
  13. Steve Nunn

    Steve Nunn Arachnoprince Old Timer

    Re: Re: Re: some observations

    Thankyou Soren, the voice of reason ;) Maybe this isn't the reason the second lot will be more expensive (and as John said not in all cases anyway) but I'd think the strong possibility remains, this first lot that was supplied weren't captve bred, but captive raised. This really doesn't make a difference either way to the buying hobbyists, but it would be nice to know for sure whether the supplier/ "breeder" actually managed to breed them sucessfully first time round or just happened to luck out as it were. I mean anyone can buy a gravid G.rosea that throws a fertile sac right?? But try breeding them with any regularity and it gets slightly more difficult. You know as well as I know that any other theraphosids in that area will produce young at the exact same time, so knowing when P.metallica were gravid would in fact be childs play with a little research. I've wild collected many theraphosids (different genera living sympatric relationships) , so I know first hand what I'm talking about here.

    You mentioned three breeders of this magnificent animal, who are the other two?? I've asked this before, but so far nobody is willing to give names, why I have no clue, it would just be nice to know. I take it Verdez is one of them, right????

    Then again maybe you have to respect their right to privacy......

    Thanks,
    Steve
     
  14. Lopez

    Lopez Arachnoking Old Timer

    Re: Re: Re: Re: some observations

    Who was selling the spiderlings at last year's BTS? I'm pretty sure it wasn't Verdez or Henrik...
     
  15. metallica

    metallica Arachnoking Old Timer

    it was Herve
     
  16. Aviculariinae

    Aviculariinae Arachnoangel Old Timer

    Are you going to the BTS show this year eddy!
     
  17. Wade

    Wade Arachnoking Old Timer

    Re: Re: Re: Or something like this...

    I know exactly what you mean here. I thought P. subfusca was a spectacular spider when I first saw pics, but there didn't seem to be much of a "buzz" on the lists and forums and I remember being perplexed by that. I was not perplexed by the high price, however!

    I think (at least in the US) people go nuts for any spider that displays blue coloration, even if it is only visible 2 hours after a molt under halogen lights when Venus is in just the right position and you scrunch up your eyes just so. When something comes along that is really stunningly blue like P. metallica, it's going to cause a sensation in the hobby.

    Understandably so, although personally I would take subfusca over metallica even if the price were the same.

    Wade
     
  18. metallica

    metallica Arachnoking Old Timer

    yes i am, see you there!?
     
  19. I wonder how much a 3" female P. metallica is worth? Molting time is going to be nerve-wracking. :eek:

    Karen N.
     
  20. Lopez

    Lopez Arachnoking Old Timer

    Ah, at last I'll get to pass some of the highly prized Acanthoscurria musculosa on to you - no spec. blau's left I'm afraid =D
     
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