Poecilotheria Venom Vs. True Spider Venom ( black widow, brown recluse)

Storm76

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ArachnoSmack: are you really sure that getting this T is the right thing for you? IMO, keeping an animal that you are highly anxious about is generally a bad idea and adds to the risk of both yourself and the animal in question. Even though you normally may have no problem to cope with faster Ts, you might act differently around one that you are afraid of. Just think it through before you get it, that´s all :)
You're pretty apprehensive; it doesn't sound like a genus you should own. Some people are comfortable working with OW's, others aren't. You shouldn't own spiders you're afraid of.
On both accounts I would usually tend to agree and suggest the same. But considering my own experiences and choices I made over the time in the hobby raising T's, it's once more one of those things where it comes down to the individual - keeper as well as spider!

I was, well, somewhat anxious, back when I received my first Poecie a couple years ago. Was a P. subfusca "lowland" that turned out male. I probably lucked out or whatever since said T was excessively calm, never threatened, freaked out or tried to bite. When he matured and I decided to send him my breeder friend to do his deed with his female, I literally had to scoop him up with the tongs into the transport container - all the while the T was completely scared and not moving an inch! Granted - I did said transfer in my bathroom expecting him to freak out any second. Nothing of the sort happened. That by itself convinced me that there are certainly specimens out there that indeed are very easy to take of and deal with.

But above recollection certainly isn't the general experience - no matter the species of the genus. I've read and heard alot of very different experiences with them and due to the fact that I'm raising 3 more Poecies (2x P. miranda, 1. P.fasciata which I got in exchange for aforementioned MM) that are very much not as easy to deal with as my first one, the best advice is still to keep your fingers out of range and keep calm when it comes to them! Right now, those I'm keeping, the P. fasciata is very defensive (as expected) and the P. mirandas are both somewhat skittish, but less interested in standing their ground, they'd rather run (as in "run all over the place frantically") than stand their ground. Currently, that triplet of T's are those that I do maintenance and everything else necessary, only while on my a-game really. Not only because I really don't want to get bitten and experience the effects first-hand, but even more so not to give german authorities more fuel to their fire in terms of banning them from yet another part of this country! I will say that P. ornata is one species of them I simply don't want to try because for some reason (weird I know) I am of the feeling I wouldn't get along too well with one. Call me superstitious but better safe than sorry.

Chances are way higher they freak out when you do. Same goes for -if- they run onto you (never happened to me thus far) everyone will tell you "Don't swat at them, don't fling them - stay calm and direct them into a catchcup or back into their cage! Freak out and you'll probably be on the receiving end of their fangs and venom!". Therefore, I think "anxiety" is bad, being "alert" and very "attentive" is better. All of which comes with growing experience and those here, like Poec, that have kept and raised tenths or hundreds of them, will probably also go to tell us newer Poecie Keepers to never -ever- get complacent around them. As with every arboreal IMO, that's recipe for desaster one way or another!


Personally, I will say that having kept Psalms (irminia, cambridgei, pulcher, langenbucheri - of which I still own 2 adult P. irminia females and 1 adult P. cambridgei female) did in fact teach me very much about what to expect from my Poecies. Their behavior is very similiar like most long-term keepers will say. Granted, as with every species out there, it's a hit and miss what kind of temperament and, more importantly, "threshold" yours will have. In the long run, the best prevention of getting bitten is to heed the advice given by those more experienced here. Oh, and common sense also goes a long way with them :D
 
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TownesVanZandt

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This hobby is supposed to be fun, not cause anxiety. Sure it's okay to be a tad nervous and these animals demand respect but the way the OP is talking about the spider just doesn't feel right.
+1 And let me tell you this. I have until recently only kept OWs and while I do respect them and use sensible precautions when dealing with them, I really enjoy it and I am comfortable with having them around. However it is one big exception to this. I have a Haplopelma minax which is now an adult female and she has scared the crap out of me on several occasions. Three times she has tried to bolt out of the enclosure with no forewarning and no apparent reason when I have opened the lid to do routine maintenance and a couple of times she has literally jumped out of her burrow and attacked my pipette when I have been refilling the water bowl. I keep this specimen as I should, with more than enough substrate and I don´t see her often, but when I do she acts like a lunatic on meth! This has made me quite vary and anxious every time the time comes to feed her or do any maintenance. I do it when needed, but I don´t get any joy at all from keeping her. Actually I praise myself lucky that I have not had any problems with mold, because rehousing this specimen will be hell. So once again, please reconsider if it is such a great idea to get a spider that your are admittedly afraid of, even beforehand. I was probably just "unlucky" to get a particularly aggressive specimen of Haplopelma minax, but my point is that to own a T that makes you afraid is not a very pleasant experience.
 
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ARACHNO-SMACK48

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Well I think Poec is a different story. If memory serves I believe he maintained a collection of venomous snakes before becoming a tarantula keeper. I am not scared to own and care for this sp. I am nervous thinking aboutwhat might happen if I am bitten by a large specimen. I guess in a way it is the same thing. However this shouldn't be a problem as I take extreme care with all of my OWs. I know that I am fully capable of dealing with this T despite it's venom potency and my admitted anxiety about receiving a bite. For me my anxiety about getting bitten translates to taking extreme caution when dealing with T's and keeps me from becoming complacent. Obviously if an AF ornata decided to launch itself at me I would be anxious and realistically I would probably flinch a bit at first but I wouldn't freak out. I would do as one is supposed to either get a catchup or try and coax the T off of me and into its cage. Everyone is presenting very valid points and I will definitely take your comments into consideration.
 
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Storm76

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I do it when needed, but I don´t get any joy at all from keeping her. Actually I praise myself lucky that I have not had any problems with mold, because rehousing this specimen will be hell. So once again, please reconsider if it is such a great idea to get a spider that your are admittedly afraid of.
Isn't this -exactly- why you should perhaps consider to give mentioned specimen to someone else? I mean, giving that advice to another keeper, but not following your own advice is...well, questionable? :)


I am not scared to own and care for this sp. I am nervous thinking aboutwhat might happen if I am bitten by a large specimen. This shouldn't be a problem as I take extreme care with all of my OWs.
It doesn't really matter if you get bitten by a 4" or an 7" Poecie - the effect is likely going to be the same. Maybe with a difference in time it'll take to subside eventually, but that's about it. Not too mention that all T's can potentially give you a dry-bite, though I gather that's rarer from Poecies than other species.
 

TownesVanZandt

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Isn't this -exactly- why you should perhaps consider to give mentioned specimen to someone else? I mean, giving that advice to another keeper, but not following your own advice is...well, questionable? :)
That´s a valid point! I should probably put an ad in the local paper: "crazed out Haplopelma minax on meth is given away for free for anyone brave enough to attempt to catch her at their own risk" ;P
 

awiec

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Well I think Poec is a different story. If memory serves I believe he maintained a collection of venomous snakes before becoming a tarantula keeper. I am not scared to own and care for this sp. I am nervous thinking aboutwhat might happen if I am bitten by a large specimen. I guess in a way it is the same thing. However this shouldn't be a problem as I take extreme care with all of my OWs. I know that I am fully capable of dealing with this T despite it's venom potency and my admitted anxiety about receiving a bite. For me my anxiety about getting bitten translates to taking extreme caution when dealing with T's and keeps me from becoming complacent. Obviously if an AF ornata decided to launch itself at me I would be anxious and realistically I would probably flinch a bit at first but I wouldn't freak out. I would do as one is supposed to either get a catchup or try and coax the T off of me and into its cage. Everyone is presenting very valid points and I will definitely take your comments into consideration.
Well on the bright side you have a board of people who are here to help. I imagine if you posted on here one day saying "HALP OMG CAN'T DEAL WITH THIS POKIE!" I'm someone would step up and take it off your hands after a few lectures about tarantula keeping responsibly. I know if there was a fellow Michigan hobbyist in trouble I would try to help them myself or use the network of other hobbyist in the state to help them somehow.
 

ARACHNO-SMACK48

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I actually already have a 1.75 + striata.

As far as fast and or defensive T's I own:
2 inch + C. Darlingi
2.5 inch + P. Irminia
3 inch + OBT
4 inch OBT
.5 inch Ch. so. kamphon thom
I also just shipped off 2 MM T. Violecus.

---------- Post added 06-09-2015 at 02:36 PM ----------

Haha yeah I know plenty of people who would love a free/ cheap T.
 

ARACHNO-SMACK48

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Will keep that in mind just in case. But I think I can handle this sp. if I get it. I don't mean physically handle it...that I cannot do... Haha
 

awiec

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Will keep that in mind just in case. But I think I can handle this sp. if I get it. I don't mean physically handle it...that I cannot do... Haha
Even though I'm hands off and use every tool you can imagine I still won't own Haplos...yet. I'm just not comfortable with a chance of an angry spider shooting out of its burrow even though I'm quite comfortable around my pokies and P.muticus. Being able to "handle a spider" for me is having the mental strength and reflexes to be able to calmly work with the animal and I'm just not there yet and maybe I never will be. BUT if you do get bit (I certainly hope you don't) at least you'll be able to educate others with a bite report.
 

Chris LXXIX

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Even though I'm hands off and use every tool you can imagine I still won't own Haplos...yet. I'm just not comfortable with a chance of an angry spider shooting out of its burrow even though I'm quite comfortable around my pokies and P.muticus. Being able to "handle a spider" for me is having the mental strength and reflexes to be able to calmly work with the animal and I'm just not there yet and maybe I never will be. BUT if you do get bit (I certainly hope you don't) at least you'll be able to educate others with a bite report.
I agree. But I can't resist this, ah ah, since you named my fav. one, Pelinobius muticus. I can't talk for Poecilotheria sp. because i don't own them, i'm not into arboreals except for Psalmopoeus sp., but Pelinobius muticus are, imo, one of the best, not defensive at all, OW Theraphosidae ever. They are somewhat gentle giants. If, only if, they are housed well, with lots (the more you can add, add. Only limit must be normal common sense) of cm of substrate for create their tunnels (i know you know this better than me, just for talking) they are imo, everything but not defensive at all (except when you have to rehouse them, here you will expect threat displays) imo they are the best OW Theraphosidae ever.

I know their venom is hot, pet holes, slow grow, but unlike my Pterinochilus murinus and my totally mental female Ceratogyrus marshalli, crazy when out of her burrow, they are... zero problems to work with.
I would never do such thing, first for my beauty, second because i'm not an idiot.. but i bet my head i can totally remove the lid and she will not even try to escape.
Best animal ever Pelinobius muticus, king of Africa. They are underrated, sadly.
 

awiec

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I agree. But I can't resist this, ah ah, since you named my fav. one, Pelinobius muticus. I can't talk for Poecilotheria sp. because i don't own them, i'm not into arboreals except for Psalmopoeus sp., but Pelinobius muticus are, imo, one of the best, not defensive at all, OW Theraphosidae ever. They are somewhat gentle giants. If, only if, they are housed well, with lots (the more you can add, add. Only limit must be normal common sense) of cm of substrate for create their tunnels (i know you know this better than me, just for talking) they are imo, everything but not defensive at all (except when you have to rehouse them, here you will expect threat displays) imo they are the best OW Theraphosidae ever.

I know their venom is hot, pet holes, slow grow, but unlike my Pterinochilus murinus and my totally mental female Ceratogyrus marshalli, crazy when out of her burrow, they are... zero problems to work with.
I would never do such thing, first for my beauty, second because i'm not an idiot.. but i bet my head i can totally remove the lid and she will not even try to escape.
Best animal ever Pelinobius muticus, king of Africa. They are underrated, sadly.
I got mine as a surprise freebie and I was dreading having to get it out of the vial and re-housing etc. But really my specimen has been for the most part, a model citizen and I'm glad that I decided to keep it instead of giving it away (though Coldblood was probably very sad). Honestly they are one of the best pet holes as they aren't so high stung like a lot of the Asian ones and I actually see it pretty often.
 

Chris LXXIX

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I'd rather get bit by a widow than a pokie.
Can i ask you why, Sir?
Imo the fact that, until now, Poecilotheria sp. have not killed, with their bite, anyone, give me somewhat a feeling of solace. Tough their bite is serious, no doubt!
I can't say the same for Latrodectus mactans, maybe i'm wrong, but i've heard they killed, during years/decades, people in United States.
Fact is, here we have a cousin of Latrodectus mactans, name is Latrodectus tredecimguttatus, same Theridiidae family, even if someone speculate is less powerful than the classic American "Black Widow".
However, they killed, killed eh, in late '80 five people, with five, single bites. From what i know no antidote here was/is available (unlike USA).
Common name here is "mediterranean widow" "malmignatta" (who sounds like "bitch or whore" in Italian, sorry admins, but and "Volterra spider")

---------- Post added 06-09-2015 at 04:01 PM ----------

I got mine as a surprise freebie and I was dreading having to get it out of the vial and re-housing etc. But really my specimen has been for the most part, a model citizen and I'm glad that I decided to keep it instead of giving it away (though Coldblood was probably very sad). Honestly they are one of the best pet holes as they aren't so high stung like a lot of the Asian ones and I actually see it pretty often.
True. If someone doesn't care about their pet hole nature, imo are the best OW to start with (previous experience with NW intermediate, of course). That's what i think after working with a lot of Asian (except Poecilotheria sp. i don't talk about them, never owned) and other Africans OW.
I have owned few of the "best, not defensive, amazing starter" Grammostola "moody" pulchripes chacos who were here and there, worst than Pelinobius muticus.
 

awiec

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Can i ask you why, Sir?
Imo the fact that, until now, Poecilotheria sp. have not killed, with their bite, anyone, give me somewhat a feeling of solace. Tough their bite is serious, no doubt!
I can't say the same for Latrodectus mactans, maybe i'm wrong, but i've heard they killed, during years/decades, people in United States.
Fact is, here we have a cousin of Latrodectus mactans, name is Latrodectus tredecimguttatus, same Theridiidae family, even if someone speculate is less powerful than the classic American "Black Widow".
However, they killed, killed eh, in late '80 five people, with five, single bites. From what i know no antidote here was/is available (unlike USA).
Common name here is "mediterranean widow" "malmignatta" (who sounds like "bitch or whore" in Italian, sorry admins, but and "Volterra spider")

---------- Post added 06-09-2015 at 04:01 PM ----------



True. If someone doesn't care about their pet hole nature, imo are the best OW to start with (previous experience with NW intermediate, of course). That's what i think after working with a lot of Asian (except Poecilotheria sp. i don't talk about them, never owned) and other Africans OW.
I have owned few of the "best, not defensive, amazing starter" Grammostola "moody" pulchripes chacos who were here and there, worst than Pelinobius muticus.
Really they aren't recommended for beginners just because when you do re-house them, they are tenacious and quick. My G.pulchripes also has been more bite happy than my P.muticus ever has but the latter deserves a lot more respect compared to the former.
 

Chris LXXIX

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Really they aren't recommended for beginners just because when you do re-house them, they are tenacious and quick. My G.pulchripes also has been more bite happy than my P.muticus ever has but the latter deserves a lot more respect compared to the former.
Yes, of course. Not to complete beginners. Mine was an advice for those people who had, previously, deal with Acanthoscurria sp. Nhandu sp. Psalmopoeus sp. etc.. in sum, for them... for a starter OW, why suggest always a Ceratogyrus marshalli and not a Pelinobius muticus?
I have both, and the devil is... Ceratogyrus marshalli.
I will probably die saying, if their needs are full respected, they are on the "calm" side. At the end, a rehouse is always a rehouse. Always mean stress for them. Ceratogyrus sp. as well. Ok, Ceratogyrus sp. venom is less powerful if a bite happens.
But who is the real King of jungle? The lion? Nope. The "King Baboon" :)
 

hmbrower

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I have adult females of all known Poecilotheria species minus hanumavillasumica. Out of all my experiences with this species, the ornata is by far the most dangerous. Nothing to do with venom levels, but with the sheer attitude this species has. Honestly, the only species I am more concerned with a potential bite risk is my AF Stromatopelma calceatum. Which I have heard have the most painful venom. Also, there are certain large Haplopelmas that I would really, really, not want to get tagged by. Just my 2 cents.
 

Chris LXXIX

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I have adult females of all known Poecilotheria species minus hanumavillasumica. Out of all my experiences with this species, the ornata is by far the most dangerous. Nothing to do with venom levels, but with the sheer attitude this species has. Honestly, the only species I am more concerned with a potential bite risk is my AF Stromatopelma calceatum. Which I have heard have the most painful venom. Also, there are certain large Haplopelmas that I would really, really, not want to get tagged by. Just my 2 cents.
I have heard this as well. Poecilotheria ornata, depicted as one, if not the most, badass Poecilotheria. You are right. Haplopelma hainanum, schmidti.. are all painful venom Theraphosidae.
On a total personal opinion, i have not something concrete for back up this, i name another one from Asia (same nation, India) who can compete with Poecilotheria sp. venom. It's Chilobrachys fimbriatus.
 

Biollantefan54

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I am only 5'2-3 and I weigh 115....The thought of getting bit of one of my OW's scares me, and it crosses my mind quite frequently. I am not scared of them though. Probably the worst I have is my P. formosa, H. lividum, and C. fimbriatus and perhaps my L. violaceopes. So far, the only one that has given me a scare was my H lividum. She was in premolt and I didn't know it, I dropped a super worm in her tank and it accidentally fell in her burrow and she darted out, I was shocked. I fumbled to get the lid, if it wanted out, it could have been LONG gone. Other then that, the other haven't given me an issue. Their venom definitely worries me but I take LOTS of cautions with them so I feel confident in myself.
 

TownesVanZandt

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Yes, of course. Not to complete beginners. Mine was an advice for those people who had, previously, deal with Acanthoscurria sp. Nhandu sp. Psalmopoeus sp. etc.. in sum, for them... for a starter OW, why suggest always a Ceratogyrus marshalli and not a Pelinobius muticus?
I have both, and the devil is... Ceratogyrus marshalli.
Because of the sheer size of the P. muticus. It´s huge and defensive. I will say that Ceratogyrus spp. (apart from your specimen) is much better suited for beginners.But THE best OW species to begin with is without a doubt E. pachypus. I got two of them and they are both as easy going as a OW can get :)
 
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