Venom1080
Arachnoemperor
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2015
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Poecilotheria subfusca Discussion
This was meant to be a part of my “Poecilotheria Visual Identification” thread, but my rambling went on way too long to keep the thread consistent about identification of the genus.
… Now, the problem. Scientifically speaking, this is one species in the hobby. And some take that as they don’t have to care about what they breed, so long as its labelled subfusca. Unfortunately, this is very wrong and shows how many myths are still prevalent in todays hobby that should have died out long ago. These same people claiming it doesn’t matter, don’t know how early DNA work shows there are two distinct species. Yet continue to quote science as an argument. Not remembering how many of our beloved hobby pets are undescribed.. Is it so hard to imagine theres another undescribed species? Mature males of both forms (I will refer to subfusca and sp highland as simply forms to avoid confusion) look very similar to each other. The one big difference perhaps is size. But, unfortunately, mature male sizes vary heavily in tarantulas, so this is not a good way to tell them apart. Lets look at some geography of the species. Lowland is from Kandy, an area (like most of the country) known for hot temperatures and its drought and monsoon seasons. Wild lowland are generally pale. See the article below. Highland is primarily from Nuwar Eliya. A very elevated area near Kandy known for lower temperatures and a wet climate. Wild highland are dark in color. Lowland are described as being very large spiders, whereas Highland is described as very small. Possibly the smallest in the genus. Beating even tiny metallica at approx. 6”. This comes from an article written by jacobi on the topic that ill link below. He has found and documented both species in the wild and theres not many who can trump his personal experience with the species. Regardless, the size of adult female Lowland and highland varies heavily in the wild. Does it in captivity? Um, no. At least, not to my knowledge. Subfusca are generally said to grow to about 7” in size. And theres very few who claim their lowland are massive and highland smaller. Point being, a popular theory about the species and why hobby stock of both forms varies so heavily compared to wild ones is that we have hybridized the forms at some point in the past and the problems been slowly growing ever since. And nowadays the only pure highland and lowland are probably in some small breeding group in Germany or Poland. You know, somewhere where hobbyists take bloodlines seriously. Having one of the forms undescribed to science has certainly not helped thus far. There are many guides out there that say there are definitive ways to tell apart the two forms. Personally, ive found these to be inconsistent. Feel free to try to use them as a starting point though. And be sure to check who the info is coming from. Anyways, the best thing to do is to compare your specimen to photos of wild specimens and see how yours lines up. I believe what we have is hybrids, and by my own definition, you wont be able to really tell anything definitive with this method. But, I also believe in presenting all the information I have and keeping personal opinion out of the stuff I present as fact. So there it is, have fun comparing. Theres a few other theories (I use the word theory very lightly here, guesses are a better word) out there about subfusca. One is that the two forms can not in fact be bred together. The male emboli structure is too different. This is interesting. As the females of the species are very different physically, if not visually, why not the male emboli? Ive heard a few top European breeders have tried and failed with wc forms. Then why do we have so much variation in the hobby subfusca today compared to wild forms? Why not age? Traditionally, a female of most species will darken with age. We know metallica and a few other Poecilotheria do it. Why not subfusca? This is a fair point. The only evidence against it is the size of our hobby stock. I don’t know many people with very small sp highland. I also don’t know many with very large lowland. I know many with adult females somewhere in the middle in terms of appearance and size. Which supports the hybrid theory. So now, lets take everything we’ve just learned about subfusca and throw a wrench in it. Introducing subfusca “Pascal lavellier”. A recent form listed on tarantulacanadas pricelist. Looking at the picture of the mother, it appears to be something in the middle of the two forms. Which leads to many questions. Is this just a hybrid of the two forms? We know its neither true lowland or highland just from pictures. However, you could fight that by saying its young, or old. And the colors have been changed and its actually a pure lowland or highland. But shut it for now. Lets make some educated guesses. Are there perhaps three subfusca lookalikes in the hobby, all which can not breed with one another and the whole hybrid theory is people just looking at the pascal form (which was not named till recently and is visually that something in the middle I mentioned earlier)? Will all three be described as separate species one day? From what I hear, DNA work says so. Lets look at some more info about the form. I contacted Martin Garmarche at tarantulacanada asking about the species, and he kindly gave me the following information. Sp Pascal was brought into Canada in the 2000s from wc specimens sold by some Czech collectors. It was genetically tested by Krehenwinkel. (name means nothing to me but sounds authoritative. Also someone with a stronger background on genetics might recognize it) It was proven to be something different than either lowland or highland. Although closer to lowland. They were always kept separated and only bred with each other since being imported. All this is extremely interesting to anyone madly obsessed with the species like me.. Regardless of what you believe, Poecilotheria subfusca is a stunning spider that deserves a place in every collection. Whether it’s a pure blooded specimen or some mutt, its still amazing to keep. I hope you found something interesting or new in my late night ramblings. Happy keeping.
PS Please correct any errors in the article, and add anything I missed.
feel free to add pics of your Poecilotheria subfusca forms below. age would be helpful as well.
This was meant to be a part of my “Poecilotheria Visual Identification” thread, but my rambling went on way too long to keep the thread consistent about identification of the genus.
… Now, the problem. Scientifically speaking, this is one species in the hobby. And some take that as they don’t have to care about what they breed, so long as its labelled subfusca. Unfortunately, this is very wrong and shows how many myths are still prevalent in todays hobby that should have died out long ago. These same people claiming it doesn’t matter, don’t know how early DNA work shows there are two distinct species. Yet continue to quote science as an argument. Not remembering how many of our beloved hobby pets are undescribed.. Is it so hard to imagine theres another undescribed species? Mature males of both forms (I will refer to subfusca and sp highland as simply forms to avoid confusion) look very similar to each other. The one big difference perhaps is size. But, unfortunately, mature male sizes vary heavily in tarantulas, so this is not a good way to tell them apart. Lets look at some geography of the species. Lowland is from Kandy, an area (like most of the country) known for hot temperatures and its drought and monsoon seasons. Wild lowland are generally pale. See the article below. Highland is primarily from Nuwar Eliya. A very elevated area near Kandy known for lower temperatures and a wet climate. Wild highland are dark in color. Lowland are described as being very large spiders, whereas Highland is described as very small. Possibly the smallest in the genus. Beating even tiny metallica at approx. 6”. This comes from an article written by jacobi on the topic that ill link below. He has found and documented both species in the wild and theres not many who can trump his personal experience with the species. Regardless, the size of adult female Lowland and highland varies heavily in the wild. Does it in captivity? Um, no. At least, not to my knowledge. Subfusca are generally said to grow to about 7” in size. And theres very few who claim their lowland are massive and highland smaller. Point being, a popular theory about the species and why hobby stock of both forms varies so heavily compared to wild ones is that we have hybridized the forms at some point in the past and the problems been slowly growing ever since. And nowadays the only pure highland and lowland are probably in some small breeding group in Germany or Poland. You know, somewhere where hobbyists take bloodlines seriously. Having one of the forms undescribed to science has certainly not helped thus far. There are many guides out there that say there are definitive ways to tell apart the two forms. Personally, ive found these to be inconsistent. Feel free to try to use them as a starting point though. And be sure to check who the info is coming from. Anyways, the best thing to do is to compare your specimen to photos of wild specimens and see how yours lines up. I believe what we have is hybrids, and by my own definition, you wont be able to really tell anything definitive with this method. But, I also believe in presenting all the information I have and keeping personal opinion out of the stuff I present as fact. So there it is, have fun comparing. Theres a few other theories (I use the word theory very lightly here, guesses are a better word) out there about subfusca. One is that the two forms can not in fact be bred together. The male emboli structure is too different. This is interesting. As the females of the species are very different physically, if not visually, why not the male emboli? Ive heard a few top European breeders have tried and failed with wc forms. Then why do we have so much variation in the hobby subfusca today compared to wild forms? Why not age? Traditionally, a female of most species will darken with age. We know metallica and a few other Poecilotheria do it. Why not subfusca? This is a fair point. The only evidence against it is the size of our hobby stock. I don’t know many people with very small sp highland. I also don’t know many with very large lowland. I know many with adult females somewhere in the middle in terms of appearance and size. Which supports the hybrid theory. So now, lets take everything we’ve just learned about subfusca and throw a wrench in it. Introducing subfusca “Pascal lavellier”. A recent form listed on tarantulacanadas pricelist. Looking at the picture of the mother, it appears to be something in the middle of the two forms. Which leads to many questions. Is this just a hybrid of the two forms? We know its neither true lowland or highland just from pictures. However, you could fight that by saying its young, or old. And the colors have been changed and its actually a pure lowland or highland. But shut it for now. Lets make some educated guesses. Are there perhaps three subfusca lookalikes in the hobby, all which can not breed with one another and the whole hybrid theory is people just looking at the pascal form (which was not named till recently and is visually that something in the middle I mentioned earlier)? Will all three be described as separate species one day? From what I hear, DNA work says so. Lets look at some more info about the form. I contacted Martin Garmarche at tarantulacanada asking about the species, and he kindly gave me the following information. Sp Pascal was brought into Canada in the 2000s from wc specimens sold by some Czech collectors. It was genetically tested by Krehenwinkel. (name means nothing to me but sounds authoritative. Also someone with a stronger background on genetics might recognize it) It was proven to be something different than either lowland or highland. Although closer to lowland. They were always kept separated and only bred with each other since being imported. All this is extremely interesting to anyone madly obsessed with the species like me.. Regardless of what you believe, Poecilotheria subfusca is a stunning spider that deserves a place in every collection. Whether it’s a pure blooded specimen or some mutt, its still amazing to keep. I hope you found something interesting or new in my late night ramblings. Happy keeping.
PS Please correct any errors in the article, and add anything I missed.
feel free to add pics of your Poecilotheria subfusca forms below. age would be helpful as well.
I bought a 8cm(3+ inches) juvenile subfusca "lowland" from a man in Hungary that had few juvies for sale back in November of 2020. She molted soon after and it was a she
. She had put on great size each molt and now she is about 19cm(7⅓+inches). First she was so brighly colored I tought that he lied about what sp it was, but after 2 molts she got all dark as you can see in the pictures. This is her now freshly molted:
