Poecilotheria Rufilata

[Craig73]

As a novice and generally someone who uses the ‘step up’ method (my own term I think) to rehouse 2-3 times into a permanent home, I do so primarily because it is providing me with skills that I lack and something that I do for my own development in being a better keeper…cause I’m a noob.

With that said, I do feel like keepers who know their spiders and husbandry can readily identify red flags if an ‘oversized’ enclosure is used and adjust.

For me it comes down to monitoring the spiders development and that it’s doing the spood things it needs to do, if yes then it’s all gravy. Now if it was someone brand new to keeping I’d say not a great idea. Again, comes down to reading your spiders behaviors and capabilities.

 

[YungRasputin]

As a novice and generally someone who uses the ‘step up’ method (my own term I think) to rehouse 2-3 times into a permanent home, I do so primarily because it is providing me with skills that I lack and something that I do for my own development in being a better keeper…cause I’m a noob.

With that said, I do feel like keepers who know their spiders and husbandry can readily identify red flags if an ‘oversized’ enclosure is used and adjust.

For me it comes down to monitoring the spiders development and that it’s doing the spood things it needs to do, if yes then it’s all gravy. Now if it was someone brand new to keeping I’d say not a great idea. Again, comes down to reading your spiders behaviors and capabilities.

i can v much appreciate this and i think also, there are subjects, like this, within the realm of genuine debate - i also think it’s easier to see and monitor hidden spiders than people realize

eg: my S. cal - they’re den is right beside the glass and at any point in time i can get a clear lateral view of the specimen in which the abdomen is clearly exposed

eg: my P. irminia constructed “dirt curtains” right beside a cork bark round in which you can clearly see their entire body unobstructed

eg: my A. avic, who created a web funnel behind some hanging foliage in which you can see their entire body

and i could go on - this is much different than monitoring fossorial species which i also think is easier than some people realize - *if* - you’re consistent in your monitoring, use correct lighting and try to observe them during what i would call “spider time” i.e. the hours between 12A and 5A-6A - this is a time in which it isn’t that uncommon to see even fossorial species at the mouth of the burrow or immediately outside of the burrow itself

again, if i felt there was some sort of issue with the practice i would then change said practice but there’s nothing indicating that there are issues nor do i feel the spider is being actively put into a risky or dangerous situation - i feel that what i’m saying and detailing is providing an overall more natural experience in which they can more closely live as they would in the wild

i’m constantly monitoring my collection all throughout the day and night - i genuinely find the time i spend in my spider room to be immensely rewarding and pleasurable - when it comes to bigger enclosures, humidification techniques, etc - i realize my routine can be more demanding and involved than what is conventional however i enjoy this, it works and the key to providing top notch care is consistency

even with my B. splendens - their care is extremely simple comparative to other fish species however i still monitor all throughout the day whether it be checking water parameters or what have you

doing that i feel it’s easier to detect and trouble shoot problems and often is the case that if something were wrong, you increase your chances at a positive resolution the more immediate your response is

 

[Craig73]

Agree. I have a couple of avics that are 3” - 4” in a larger enclosure, possibly their forever home, but I lack experience of dealing with, or ever seeing a 5”+ tarantula in real life , so we will see. .

I have a bunch that sit out 24/7, and some that are midnight owls. Luckily I am up until 2-3am and get to experience them. Larger enclosures has worked for the two, so pretty stoked about that. I’ve only put one T in a super sized enclosure (3”+ P. met) and that was because I was terrified of it and did not want to ever have to transfer it again...no longer have it and it’s got an owner that knows his stuff.

 

[Wolfram1]

man @YungRasputin, i don't think i remember any thread were your philosophies didn't rub me the wrong way. Your goal of keeping them as natural as possible are admirable and i try to do it too but our approach couldn't be more different.

This has however become too extensive a thread to reply to every single point so i will just say i dont understand your argument for putting slings into adult enclosures because to me i am not trying to recreate nature 100% but rather to create an idealized version in which i have maximum control and can thus ensure its wellbeeing. Smaller enclosures make this much easyer. And if i remember correctly you use coco fibre as a substrate which directly contradicts your aim of making it as natural as possible. If you want to keep it in shape i suggest having a tighter control over its feeding as an alternative to the "exercice" it will get while trying to find prey in that monstrosity of a cage.

anyway i skipped a few bits....

Good Luck.
feel free to argue with me

 

[YungRasputin]

man @YungRasputin, i don't think i remember any thread were your philosophies didn't rub me the wrong way.

it happens

Your goal of keeping them as natural as possible are admirable and i try to do it too but our approach couldn't be more different.

alright

This has however become too extensive a thread to reply to every single point so i will just say i dont understand your argument for putting slings into adult enclosures because to me i am not trying to recreate nature 100% but rather to create an idealized version in which i have maximum control and can thus ensure its wellbeeing.

I’m not sure why you feel control, well being or safety is sacrificed with a bigger enclosures

Smaller enclosures make this much easyer.

how exactly?

And if i remember correctly you use coco fibre as a substrate which directly contradicts your aim of making it as natural as possible.

no, it doesn’t - i do use cocofiber for its specific properties along with other soil options within a mix which is tailored to produce the environmental parameters needed to ensure an environment in which the specimen can thrive - cocofiber is useful insomuch as it gives up moisture quicker than top soil which can be manipulated to produce various humidity levels while at the same time not producing overly damp conditions as what could take place with top soil alone - particularly if it also contains peat and vermiculite

some exceptions are made within captivity yes - i don’t think you’d find very many temp/humidity gauges in the Western/Eastern Ghats mountain range(s) and yet i still use them - seems a bit silly to suggest that either that or the use of cocofiber would somehow negate naturalism

If you want to keep it in shape i suggest having a tighter control over its feeding as an alternative to the "exercice" it will get while trying to find prey in that monstrosity of a cage.

i mean, it’s a simple thing to reduce or skip feedings - my point being that under-eating is not a problem - all feeders given either disappear or are dead and left for me to pick up the next day

also curious that the enclosure would be called a “monstrosity” given my philosophy of terrarium design (which is based in functionality, simplicity and implied naturalism - i don’t much care for the philosophy of creating the illusion of nature through complexity)

anyway i skipped a few bits....

Good Luck.
feel free to argue with me

okie dokie artichoke

 

[jrh3]

man @YungRasputin, i don't think i remember any thread were your philosophies didn't rub me the wrong way. Your goal of keeping them as natural as possible are admirable and i try to do it too but our approach couldn't be more different.

This has however become too extensive a thread to reply to every single point so i will just say i dont understand your argument for putting slings into adult enclosures because to me i am not trying to recreate nature 100% but rather to create an idealized version in which i have maximum control and can thus ensure its wellbeeing. Smaller enclosures make this much easyer. And if i remember correctly you use coco fibre as a substrate which directly contradicts your aim of making it as natural as possible. If you want to keep it in shape i suggest having a tighter control over its feeding as an alternative to the "exercice" it will get while trying to find prey in that monstrosity of a cage.

anyway i skipped a few bits....

Good Luck.
feel free to argue with me

This is why we have threads like….Help, Why is my sling death curl, why won’t my spider eat, i lost me spider, ect.
Some people don’t listen. There was a p. metallica thread on the same issue not too long ago.

 

[YungRasputin]

This is why we have threads like….Help, Why is my sling death curl, why won’t my spider eat, i lost me spider, ect.
Some people don’t listen. There was a p. metallica thread on the same issue not too long ago.

again, implying there isn’t all sorts of threads dealing with sling death curl, i lost my spider, my spider won’t eat, etc in which the specimen was in small homemades

 

[Wolfram1]

nice, you respondet

I’m not sure why you feel control, well being or safety is sacrificed with a bigger enclosures

how exactly?

It is not a direct benefit and the funny thing is i am all for bigger enclosures but at the same time i think providing them with smaller enclosures and seeing how they adapt to the specific setup provides a lot of valuable insight in how they behave. Putting them into their final enclosure right away may be fine for the spider and minimise stress but it deprives YOU of the opportunity to learn about your individual spider in different settings. I have quite a few spiders that behave differently from their siblings. I do think my observations will help me provide the best possible adult enclosure and care for each individual spider when the time comes rather than assuming "i know how they behave" from the get go.

no, it doesn’t - i do use cocofiber for its specific properties along with other soil options within a mix which is tailored to produce the environmental parameters needed to ensure an environment in which the specimen can thrive - cocofiber is useful insomuch as it gives up moisture quicker than top soil which can be manipulated to produce various humidity levels while at the same time not producing overly damp conditions as what could take place with top soil alone - particularly if it also contains peat and vermiculite

you are over-complicating things again, i do experiment with different substrates (and i don't think i will ever be finished doing it)

to me i found a mixture of natural, clay rich forest soil (~65%), collected from molehills mixed with a kind of rose-earth (~35%) "worked the best"(personal preference) so far.
Peat and vermiculite are a no-go to me, though it can work and i used to experiment with mixing coco fibre in as well but it just isn't doing it for me any more as it allows mold to spread too much.

Point is i don't get your argument about coco fibre being special, just adapt your watering habits to the specific mixture and voila, you get good results. Experiment without the spiders first.

some exceptions are made within captivity yes - i don’t think you’d find very many temp/humidity gauges in the Western/Eastern Ghats mountain range(s) and yet i still use them - seems a bit silly to suggest that either that or the use of cocofiber would somehow negate naturalism

never used one never will, another point for the team

fluffy ground is definitively not natural, it might mimic a detritus rich area underneath a tree ore some such were digging is easier for slings but apart from that i wouldnt call it natural in any way.

i mean, it’s a simple thing to reduce or skip feedings - my point being that under-eating is not a problem - all feeders given either disappear or are dead and left for me to pick up the next day

You obviously never made that experience and you probably never will in that large an enclosure but live feeders can stress a tarantula out quite a bit, i have had a sling refuse food forever until i noticed that a few of the tiny roaches i had assumes were already eaten survived in crevices of the cork bark. A day after i removed them and put the spiderling back in it ate a pre-killed one which had been left untouched all the time i tried before. Those are mistakes to learn from and adapt your husbandry, i will gladly admit i am not perfect and try learn from my mistakes. Never put a feeder in unless you know for certain the last one was eaten or truly died. (yes one even survived a crushed head, it was nasty looking) They can cause much more stress than a rehousing.


Your approach to this seems the opposite, give them enough room and they can escape any stress on their own. That's a fair assumption. I just think those experiences are valuable for us keepers to grow our understanding of them.

also curious that the enclosure would be called a “monstrosity” given my philosophy of terrarium design (which is based in functionality, simplicity and implied naturalism - i don’t much care for the philosophy of creating the illusion of nature through complexity)

i was embellishing its size!
on this we are of the same mind again but somehow our approach is different again - i agree simpler is often better, and all that plastic trash can stay away

 

[YungRasputin]

nice, you respondet

but of course

It is not a direct benefit and the funny thing is i am all for bigger enclosures but at the same time i think providing them with smaller enclosures and seeing how they adapt to the specific setup provides a lot of valuable insight in how they behave. Putting them into their final enclosure right away may be fine for the spider and minimise stress but it deprives YOU of the opportunity to learn about your individual spider in different settings. I have quite a few spiders that behave differently from their siblings. I do think my observations will help me provide the best possible adult enclosure and care for each individual spider when the time comes rather than assuming "i know how they behave" from the get go.

I think you must have skipped over the part where i used to practice this matryoshka doll method however now i do not - i have observed small slings in small enclosures plenty - i have a real feisty OBT in a sling box as we speak

also, not sure why it is people think that such observations can’t be done in larger enclosures or why watching them develop closer to as they would in nature is problematic or wrong

you are over-complicating things again, i do experiment with different substrates (and i don't think i will ever be finished doing it)

not really - different soil types have different properties which can be used to produce desired environmental parameters, which based upon what you’ve said here in this thread, i’m sure you know already, perhaps more than i do as well

to me i found a mixture of natural, clay rich forest soil (~65%), collected from molehills mixed with a kind of rose-earth (~35%) "worked the best"(personal preference) so far.
Peat and vermiculite are a no-go to me, though it can work and i used to experiment with mixing coco fibre in as well but it just isn't doing it for me any more as it allows mold to spread too much.

experimenting with substrates is good and i like reading about other keepers recipes so thank you - think being said, i like cocofiber because as previously stated it gives up moisture quickly and ironically, (given your statement), i find it actually helps to prevent mold outbreaks because of the aforementioned properties that it has

Point is i don't get your argument about coco fibre being special, just adapt your watering habits to the specific mixture and voila, you get good results. Experiment without the spiders first.

it’s not special, it just has certain properties which I’ve noticed and learned about over time, just the same as any substrate, the all have particular properties and react in particular ways to various things like, hydration methods and so on - i like using it because it allows me to raise and maintain elevated humidity/air moisture levels while also quickly drying out - so with light misting techniques i can get that tropical humidity level easy, and also, don’t have to worry about mold or creating a “swamp box”

do i use it for every specimen or in every enclosure? no, what mixture i use and how i mix it depends on the species eg: i would much rather use clay, sand, etc for an arid species - i don’t really like or use cocofiber in those cases

never used one never will, another point for the team

not sure why - gauges are good tools

fluffy ground is definitively not natural, it might mimic a detritus rich area underneath a tree ore some such were digging is easier for slings but apart from that i wouldnt call it natural in any way.

fluffy ground is also not what I’m providing because i don’t use cocofiber by itself - particular because, per burrowing behavior, it doesn’t provide sturdy structures comparative to blending it with top soil + sands

You obviously never made that experience and you probably never will in that large an enclosure but live feeders can stress a tarantula out quite a bit, i have had a sling refuse food forever until i noticed that a few of the tiny roaches i had assumes were already eaten survived in crevices of the cork bark. A day after i removed them and put the spiderling back in it ate a pre-killed one which had been left untouched all the time i tried before. Those are mistakes to learn from and adapt your husbandry, i will gladly admit i am not perfect and try learn from my mistakes. Never put a feeder in unless you know for certain the last one was eaten or truly died. (yes one even survived a crushed head, it was nasty looking) They can cause much more stress than a rehousing.

i make sure that feeders are removed after the feeding sesh 24-48 hrs - i also exclusively drop feed - i want them to fine tune their natural instincts of ambush, stalking, detecting prey, striking, etc - this is best done with live prey - i would only pre-kill prey items if the specimen was either too tiny or too old to kill it itself

Your approach to this seems the opposite, give them enough room and they can escape any stress on their own. That's a fair assumption. I just think those experiences are valuable for us keepers to grow our understanding of them.

in a sense yes, they can avoid the “stress” of feeders moving throughout the enclosure and they can also avoid the stress of being near a weird primate who wants to give it water and clean up the place and i think this actually where i deviate from the wild in that once they’re done eating and I’ve done tank maintainer they’re left to their own devices in a warm, dark, silent room with only themselves and their enclosure - i live alone and i am the only person/animal that enters my spider room - really can’t get much more peaceful than this

with this being said - i am skeptical about how much stress crickets could cause in large enclosure comparative to what they experience in the wilds - whether it be worms and isopods or birds or insects or what have you - the wild is never quiet and they would be coming into direct contact with other animals all the time and have to share the space with other animals outside of the confines of their den

i was embellishing its size!
on this we are of the same mind again but somehow our approach is different again - i agree simpler is often better, and all that plastic trash can stay away

ah i see and also, agreed

WELL WELL WELL

*snaps suspenders*

what do we got here - almost as if this could’ve been avoided somehow

 

[jrh3]

WELL WELL WELL

*snaps suspenders*

what do we got here - almost as if this could’ve been avoided somehow

Exactly, have a work area, that is not your bed or kitchen sink. if the cup was placed inside of a larger bin to do work this could have been avoided.

As stated before, it comes with experience rehousing tarantulas, you learn what to do and not to do. Which is the prime reason you start with a beginners species and raise a few up. Raising a g. Rosea from sling to adult doesn’t make you prepared to keep pokies or an s. Cal.

If you were implying that a sling in an adult enclosure is going to prevent this, ha. Good luck with that.

 

[YungRasputin]

Exactly, have a work area, that is not your bed or kitchen sink. if the cup was placed inside of a larger bin to do work this could have been avoided.

As stated before, it comes with experience rehousing tarantulas, you learn what to do and not to do. Which is the prime reason you start with a beginners species and raise a few up. Raising a g. Rosea from sling to adult doesn’t make you prepared to keep pokies or an s. Cal.

If you were implying that a sling in an adult enclosure is going to prevent this, ha. Good luck with that.

i was implying that bin or not it seems curious to insist on a practice in which is a “one size fits all”

perhaps advanced species should be treated like advanced species - perhaps a sling box would give people more room in which the T can establish its space, feel more comfortable and even if it were going to bolt, you have the means with which to prevent this i.e. the port on a sling box

i can mist the enclosure and shut the port before my OBT even reaches it for example

also, I don’t need luck - my 3 inch S. cal is doing great in its enclosure and hasn’t bolted even once (imagine that)

and speaking of bolting (which is a stress behavior) if you know you have a species that bolts, you know it’s OW, you know they do this and are v particular about their space why continue to do something which is ultimately, unnatural and triggers said response? why not have a larger enclosure in which, again, they can establish their own space, and in turn, you have space within the enclosure between you and them, and can comfortably do tank maintenance without disturbing them or making them feel that they need to run for their life (literally)?

also, to be clear again, i already have experience housing and rehousing arboreals of this caliber and advanced species in general - i already have H. mac, E. olivacea, S. cal, just picked up a P. metallica and so on - just rehoused my C. Marshalli couples weeks ago - before reentering the hobby i already gained experience in rehousing H. tamulus, P. lugardi, C. Darlingi, L. quinquestriatus, etc - i caught, housed, and rehoused L. mactans AF by the time i was 13 - idk why people feel it necessary to say or imply i have no experience

^like, i already had experience with keeping arachnid species that could kill me before i even picked up my beloved G. rosea

edit: let’s turn the argument on it’s head, may be experience is important - maybe keeping slings naturally is something for experienced keepers