pmet communal how to start

[AllenjacobNones]

so im planning to make a communal pmet setup, i have a pmet eggsac and im planning to make a communal setup for it, do i just put then in an enclosure when they are slings?

 

[ladyratri]

Step 1: Don't.

Really though -- they aren't communal animals. You'll most likely end up with one fat spider.

 

[Andrew Clayton]

so im planning to make a communal pmet setup, i have a pmet eggsac and im planning to make a communal setup for it, do i just put then in an enclosure when they are slings?

Poecilotheria Metallica are definitely not communal, they will tolerate each other at a smaller size but as they get bigger you're going to end up with one fat spider.

Get Monocentropus Balfouri, although many would argue there not communal, I'm just n the other side of that. I have one just now with 5 in it and it's coming along great.

 

[Wolfram1]

check out Mark's Tarantulas and his last video on his P. subfusca communal, thats pretty much how it ends

 

[viper69]

so im planning to make a communal pmet setup, i have a pmet eggsac and im planning to make a communal setup for it, do i just put then in an enclosure when they are slings?

No No No No! They are not communal animals!!!!!

People thought the same thing BEFORE you were alive on the planet, and they were wrong then!

 

[Ellenantula]

But... why? Please don't do this.

 

[Requiem4aSpleen]

This sounds like a plot to a horror story

 

[Ellenantula]

Poster has an eggsac. Guess poster views this experiment as more fun than selling/giving/culling ??? Communal = culling, imo.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

so im planning to make a communal pmet setup, i have a pmet eggsac and im planning to make a communal setup for it, do i just put then in an enclosure when they are slings?

Where did you get your information on Poecilotheria communals? I'm just curious to know what the source is.

 

[fcat]

Where did you get your information on Poecilotheria communals? I'm just curious to know what the source is.

I feel like I just asked this about M balfouri...

From what I gathered, it's acceptable for people to repeat other stupid practices because someone was dumb enough to do it in the first place. That's it, that's the source.

 

[Andrew Clayton]

I feel like I just asked this about M balfouri...

From what I gathered, it's acceptable for people to repeat other stupid practices because someone was dumb enough to do it in the first place. That's it, that's the source.

The big difference is, most, if not all Poecilotheria have been observed in the wild, and they are not communal. In captivity they can be kept together longer than other Tarantulas when hatched, I think this is where the communal aspect of Poecilotheria come into argument. Just because they can be kept together at a smaller size does not mean they are communal.

Monocentropus Balfouri, completely different story. They have not been observed in the wild. We only have keeper experience, in captivity to go off. This all points towards Balfouri being communal, with the exception being the mature males need removed. IMO though the MM would leave whatever communal setup there was, if any, in the wild. There are a ton of YouTube videos for proof, that Balfouri can be kept right up until adulthood.

I used to be on the "all Tarantulas are solitary creatures" side. The Balfouri argument got the better of me though.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

I feel like I just asked this about M balfouri...

From what I gathered, it's acceptable for people to repeat other stupid practices because someone was dumb enough to do it in the first place. That's it, that's the source.

I agree, I was wanting the OP to reveal their source so it would expose the misinformation they received.

With M. balfouri, there is no scientific evidence they live communally on the island off Yemen where they were discovered. Given it's location no scientific expeditions have been there since to do more field work.

With the current events in that region it's also possible that island has suffered some destruction.

I was in the camp that communal setups of any tarantulas is ridiculous. There is one advanced keeper here that shared his experience and info that it can be done successfully.

I also know Tom Moran has had a balfouri communal for quite a long time now and has witnessed a hierarchy taking place with food. One balfouri taking food from another's mouth with no preying on each other. He's an advanced keeper and I will never keep a communal of any T though.

Poecilotheria communals I have seen mentioned from time to time. Not sure where this has originated but is ridiculous for anyone to attempt let alone a new keeper. I say new keeper because an experienced keeper knows better with Poecilotheria.

I personally seen in nature documentaries Poecilotheria occupying a single tree but it was inconclusive. The clip was brief and not enough to derive anything from other than they were hunting for prey at night.

It's definitely not enough to form a scientific evaluation that they are communal.

 

[fcat]

The big difference is, most, if not all Poecilotheria have been observed in the wild, and they are not communal. In captivity they can be kept together longer than other Tarantulas when hatched, I think this is where the communal aspect of Poecilotheria come into argument. Just because they can be kept together at a smaller size does not mean they are communal.

Monocentropus Balfouri, completely different story. They have not been observed in the wild. We only have keeper experience, in captivity to go off. This all points towards Balfouri being communal, with the exception being the mature males need removed. IMO though the MM would leave whatever communal setup there was, if any, in the wild. There are a ton of YouTube videos for proof, that Balfouri can be kept right up until adulthood.

I used to be on the "all Tarantulas are solitary creatures" side. The Balfouri argument got the better of me though.

I like you too much to like you less for this but that's basically my point. No scientific documented evidence for both...check. Humans doing dumb things and saying that's the way to do it because everyone else did it too even though there is not a shred of scientific evidence...check.

I could hoard 100 cats in my house and say that it works just because they don't kill each other? Sadly it works but it doesn't make for a good existence. Constant stress and fear, constant movement, fewer resources, the risk of disease transmission...the level of excrement....but hey no one ate each other. Unless you were to starve them, then they probably would eventually.

This hobby as a whole in terms of a "good life for a tarantula" has barely evolved to a slow miserable death for most specimens. A few elites here...theirs are THRIVING. That's kind of what happens when you study and improve based on science. This communal idea was not even founded there.

I think it's more likely that they received the same signal to emerge from the nest that everyone else but had no where to go. If you've ever raised a sac in a non escape proof incubator lol...I had 200+ embark on their journey on the same day. They could've eaten each other (you should see the size difference on the ones that did..only 3 to be exact...) but chose to leave instead. To escape their siblings before everyone got hungry? Was there some other cue to disburse...and why do most young leave the nest in the first place? Well I can't prove it but it's for genetic diversity.

And if interbreeding siblings I mean line breeding were nature's plan (or healthy to the specimen as a whole) you know what we would see? Communals in the wild.

And let's not confuse an extremely small native habitat with a communal. If all the living poecilotheria species lived in a city park, that doesn't make them communal, it's just all that's left of their habitat. They are adapting as best they can at the brink of extinction. Unfortunately they have two different scientific timelines the data is based on, pre industrial and post industrial (very simply put).

Viper once posted a link on H gabonensis, written by someone I should know their name...anyway he went to Africa to find them and wasn't having much luck until he looked up... He climbed a tree and found a population that was established (and beautifully described it, enough to model an enclosure by). Is *this* a communal? We are getting close but I'd need to know how much space we are talking (they are really tiny Ts after all) and most importantly HOW MANY GENERATIONS HAVE SURVIVED THERE...and then yeah, I'd coarsely construe them as communal but that DNA only.

My last incoherent argument....if you live somewhere in the native range of a T...go touch dirt Burrows are everywhere or nowhere. The babies don't disburse that far... And they coexist for decades in close proximity. The genetic diversity is mostly in the modified emboli of the male...who not only travels greater distances but also seems to be selective in his mates... Thanks to an observation by @AphonopelmaTX... Is that a communal? What if I could fit it in a box?

So the Human Element...and also controlling the ability to make things suffer...could work for any species really, if the box is big enough right? By this definition, humans can make any species communal. Doesn't mean they should, but they will.



Edit adding some links:
While looking for an old Tliltocatl video (I'm going insane trying to find it...thought it was of wild T vagans leaving the nest), I found this post. Around 20:00 Aphonopelma slings leaving the nest at the same time...

Aphonopelma slings leaving the nest single file in herping video

So, I'm wacthing a west Texas herping video when the Youtuber comes across a line of Aphonopelma slings leaving the nest. The youtuber just calls them spiders, as he's mostly into herps, but they are clearly Tarantula slings. Did a little research to make sure I knew what I was talking about and...

arachnoboards.com

 

[Arachnophobphile]

I like you too much to like you less for this but that's basically my point. No scientific documented evidence for both...check. Humans doing dumb things and saying that's the way to do it because everyone else did it too even though there is not a shred of scientific evidence...check.

I could hoard 100 cats in my house and say that it works just because they don't kill each other? Sadly it works but it doesn't make for a good existence. Constant stress and fear, constant movement, fewer resources, the risk of disease transmission...the level of excrement....but hey no one ate each other. Unless you were to starve them, then they probably would eventually.

This hobby as a whole in terms of a "good life for a tarantula" has barely evolved to a slow miserable death for most specimens. A few elites here...theirs are THRIVING. That's kind of what happens when you study and improve based on science. This communal idea was not even founded there.

I think it's more likely that they received the same signal to emerge from the nest that everyone else but had no where to go. If you've ever raised a sac in a non escape proof incubator lol...I had 200+ embark on their journey on the same day. They could've eaten each other (you should see the size difference on the ones that did..only 3 to be exact...) but chose to leave instead. To escape their siblings before everyone got hungry? Was there some other cue to disburse...and why do most young leave the nest in the first place? Well I can't prove it but it's for genetic diversity.

And if interbreeding siblings I mean line breeding were nature's plan (or healthy to the specimen as a whole) you know what we would see? Communals in the wild.

And let's not confuse an extremely small native habitat with a communal. If all the living poecilotheria species lived in a city park, that doesn't make them communal, it's just all that's left of their habitat. They are adapting as best they can at the brink of extinction. Unfortunately they have two different scientific timelines the data is based on, pre industrial and post industrial (very simply put).

Viper once posted a link on H gabonensis, written by someone I should know their name...anyway he went to Africa to find them and wasn't having much luck until he looked up... He climbed a tree and found a population that was established (and beautifully described it, enough to model an enclosure by). Is *this* a communal? We are getting close but I'd need to know how much space we are talking (they are really tiny Ts after all) and most importantly HOW MANY GENERATIONS HAVE SURVIVED THERE...and then yeah, I'd coarsely construe them as communal but that DNA only.

My last incoherent argument....if you live somewhere in the native range of a T...go touch dirt Burrows are everywhere or nowhere. The babies don't disburse that far... And they coexist for decades in close proximity. The genetic diversity is mostly in the modified emboli of the male...who not only travels greater distances but also seems to be selective in his mates... Thanks to an observation by @AphonopelmaTX... Is that a communal? What if I could fit it in a box?

So the Human Element...and also controlling the ability to make things suffer...could work for any species really, if the box is big enough right? By this definition, humans can make any species communal. Doesn't mean they should, but they will.



Edit adding some links:
While looking for an old Tliltocatl video (I'm going insane trying to find it...thought it was of wild T vagans leaving the nest), I found this post. Around 20:00 Aphonopelma slings leaving the nest at the same time...

Aphonopelma slings leaving the nest single file in herping video

So, I'm wacthing a west Texas herping video when the Youtuber comes across a line of Aphonopelma slings leaving the nest. The youtuber just calls them spiders, as he's mostly into herps, but they are clearly Tarantula slings. Did a little research to make sure I knew what I was talking about and...

arachnoboards.com

There's no scientific evidence I've ever read that certain genus/species live communally.

The only thing that is documented that I've read is with avics. A male can remain in the same enclosure with the female for a few days after mating. The female is more tolerant of co-habitating with the male for a few days. That's the extent of anything close to it I've seen.

The problem with communals is that experienced keepers had great success. Then what happened were sellers/dealers started marketing it. What I saw were new keepers rushing to get balfouri starter communals offered by some sellers and that is the issue. Inexperienced keepers starting a communal and not even knowing or have experience with basic husbandry for a NW terrestrial even.

It's a can of worms that was opened years ago. Whether anyone agrees with it or not it's not ending anytime soon or at all.

 

[fcat]

There's no scientific evidence I've ever read that certain genus/species live communally.

The only thing that is documented that I've read is with avics. A male can remain in the same enclosure with the female for a few days after mating. The female is more tolerant of co-habitating with the male for a few days. That's the extent of anything close to it I've seen.

The problem with communals is that experienced keepers had great success. Then what happened were sellers/dealers started marketing it. What I saw were new keepers rushing to get balfouri starter communals offered by some sellers and that is the issue. Inexperienced keepers starting a communal and not even knowing or have experience with basic husbandry for a NW terrestrial even.

It's a can of worms that was opened years ago. Whether anyone agrees with it or not it's not ending anytime soon or at all.

I've been cohabbing an Ornithoctoninae sp Vietnam silver pair together since October. Every time I go to pull him, he's within inches of her. He has a huge enclosure with hers inside, multiple hides including tubes, plus plenty of dirt to burrow. He's been all over but chooses to be close to her for reasons He's even gone as far as making his sperm web in her enclosure. I keep my females small per Cold Blood advice...it's borderline slumlord for her but for him to exist in there with her for a few days is just nuts to me. I'm obviously doing something wrong because she hasn't dropped yet....she did get suddenly slimmer so either she molted or she ate it...and they are still peaceful with each other.

A few years ago someone posted a video on my local subreddit a video of several MM Aphonopelma sp. wandering around their back patio. Many of them eventually encountered each other. There was no violence, with some quite the opposite...they both had to confirm for themselves that their plumbing was incompatible

I've intentionally been keeping K brunippes sac together to cull...they are probably 4th instar by now and could possibly take down a small mealworm. They've been surviving off springtails and each other. I started with a chunk of EWLs that a friend gave me and have been waiting for them to get large enough for ventilation holes. I can usually see 4-5 of about 30, but I gave them 16oz half moist sub, half moist moss as an incubator and some have made it to the bottom. I have better than 20/20 vision but God bless the breeders that keep this species in the hobby.

My point...I keep things communal as a method of culling.

Id be lying if I omitted the fact that I would love to observe a communal setup but I've got to wait for a good portion of my collection to die of old age so I can devote the whole wall to the enclosure. I'd like to test this theory by giving adequate space and seeing if they choose to be communal. I'm a sucker for pretty pieces of desert driftwood (I have been collecting for years) and would go to town making a piece of art. I've really thought this through, believe me...Just don't have the space yet. Now that I'm thinking of it...I'd probably have to build two of them...one for sac mates and one as diverse as possible. For science Anyway...stay tuned in about 10 years

Edit to add I recently cohabbed P metallica. I didn't get my cameras set up in time to film much contact but they were together for about 3 weeks. Her enclosure and his inside an 18x18x18. He would catch food and then bring it into her enclosure to eat with her.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

I like you too much to like you less for this but that's basically my point. No scientific documented evidence for both...check. Humans doing dumb things and saying that's the way to do it because everyone else did it too even though there is not a shred of scientific evidence...check.

I could hoard 100 cats in my house and say that it works just because they don't kill each other? Sadly it works but it doesn't make for a good existence. Constant stress and fear, constant movement, fewer resources, the risk of disease transmission...the level of excrement....but hey no one ate each other. Unless you were to starve them, then they probably would eventually.

This hobby as a whole in terms of a "good life for a tarantula" has barely evolved to a slow miserable death for most specimens. A few elites here...theirs are THRIVING. That's kind of what happens when you study and improve based on science. This communal idea was not even founded there.

I think it's more likely that they received the same signal to emerge from the nest that everyone else but had no where to go. If you've ever raised a sac in a non escape proof incubator lol...I had 200+ embark on their journey on the same day. They could've eaten each other (you should see the size difference on the ones that did..only 3 to be exact...) but chose to leave instead. To escape their siblings before everyone got hungry? Was there some other cue to disburse...and why do most young leave the nest in the first place? Well I can't prove it but it's for genetic diversity.

And if interbreeding siblings I mean line breeding were nature's plan (or healthy to the specimen as a whole) you know what we would see? Communals in the wild.

And let's not confuse an extremely small native habitat with a communal. If all the living poecilotheria species lived in a city park, that doesn't make them communal, it's just all that's left of their habitat. They are adapting as best they can at the brink of extinction. Unfortunately they have two different scientific timelines the data is based on, pre industrial and post industrial (very simply put).

Viper once posted a link on H gabonensis, written by someone I should know their name...anyway he went to Africa to find them and wasn't having much luck until he looked up... He climbed a tree and found a population that was established (and beautifully described it, enough to model an enclosure by). Is *this* a communal? We are getting close but I'd need to know how much space we are talking (they are really tiny Ts after all) and most importantly HOW MANY GENERATIONS HAVE SURVIVED THERE...and then yeah, I'd coarsely construe them as communal but that DNA only.

My last incoherent argument....if you live somewhere in the native range of a T...go touch dirt Burrows are everywhere or nowhere. The babies don't disburse that far... And they coexist for decades in close proximity. The genetic diversity is mostly in the modified emboli of the male...who not only travels greater distances but also seems to be selective in his mates... Thanks to an observation by @AphonopelmaTX... Is that a communal? What if I could fit it in a box?

So the Human Element...and also controlling the ability to make things suffer...could work for any species really, if the box is big enough right? By this definition, humans can make any species communal. Doesn't mean they should, but they will.



Edit adding some links:
While looking for an old Tliltocatl video (I'm going insane trying to find it...thought it was of wild T vagans leaving the nest), I found this post. Around 20:00 Aphonopelma slings leaving the nest at the same time...

Aphonopelma slings leaving the nest single file in herping video

So, I'm wacthing a west Texas herping video when the Youtuber comes across a line of Aphonopelma slings leaving the nest. The youtuber just calls them spiders, as he's mostly into herps, but they are clearly Tarantula slings. Did a little research to make sure I knew what I was talking about and...

arachnoboards.com

There is a lot going on here so I will just quote it all and provide some of my perspectives instead of trying to slice it up and respond to each point. If I repeat some of the same points, just consider it me being in agreement.

Firstly, the argument that there is no scientific evidence of any tarantula species living in groups or exhibiting any kind of social behavior in the wild as a reason to not try it in captivity is completely bogus. One of the key aspects of the scientific method is to control variables to observe and record changes. Another key aspect of the scientific method is being able to repeat the experiement(s) and get the same results. You can't control variables to observe changes and repeat it if you are sitting in a forest, desert, a city park, etc. for any amount of time, you can only do so in captivity. Field observations are an important aspect of science as well, but when it comes to studying tarantulas in the wild you need a lot of time. Just like in captivity, wild tarantulas pretty much just sit around all day and night and don't do anything. Combined with their cryptic habits making them difficult to find, studying wild tarantulas requires years vs. weeks or months to get the full picture of how they live. Even if there were full accounts of a complete 10-30 year lifecycle of a population of a target species, it would make no difference to how they should be cared for in captivity. This brings me to my second thought.

Wild tarantulas are out there just surviving. The behaviors you would witness in the field are them doing the best they can to survive whatever nature throws at them and should never be the source of truth of how to take care of them in captivity. In the same manner that you would never expose any tarantula to months of drought; months of wet soggy conditions; or stop feeding your tarantula for months or years in captivity just because it has all been recorded in a scientific journal from observations made from the wild, you wouldn't necessarily keep any species of tarantula in a group in captivity just because someone with a graduate degree saw it happen one time in a wild population and published it in a respected peer-reviewed journal. Field observations are interesting in that they explore the natural history of a species and describes how they interact with their environment. By the way some people talk about needing scientific evidence, or having something be seen in the wild to make it true, leads me to to think field observations are considered to be tip sheets or care guides for captive tarantulas. This would be faulty thinking if that is indeed the case. Tarantula field reports are usually snap shots in time based on a single population and might not be reflective of how the species as a whole utilizes their environment for survival. Just because you see or read about one individual tarantula, or a single population, living in a tree doesn't necessarily mean the species is arboreal. In the same way, IF a group of a Poecilotheria species were to be found to be living together and exhibiting social behavior it does not mean the species is social and the way we house them in captivity should change.

In closing, the scientific method is something we can all do at home with our captive tarantulas and still get some interesting valid results so long as some basic training in science is held. I think it is accepted that tarantulas in general are solitary and territorial so any attempts to keep any species in a group to test for social behavior should be considered risky and some deaths would occur. It should then be up to each individual's level of scientific training and sense of ethics if they want to try keeping a group of tarantulas together in the same cage to see what happens. Whatever the result, please publish it somewhere so we can all learn from it.

 

[Mustafa67]

so im planning to make a communal pmet setup, i have a pmet eggsac and im planning to make a communal setup for it, do i just put then in an enclosure when they are slings?

Don’t

 

[Milipedesarecool]

Here are some other arachnids that can be kept together or observed to be social in the wild.
1.Social velvet spider, approximately 5 species under the genus Stegodyphus, these are known to live in huge colonies,there are parenting behaviors observed. There are actually post about them you can find here.
2. Social huntsman spider Delena cancerides
Australian spider, so basically not available anywhere outside Australia. They are found in the wild with insane density. But they are not entirely social, this is only a stage of their life.
3.Paratemnoides nidificator, social pseudoscorpion, hunt together and can take down way bigger and very unconventional prey, very interesting, not alot of people keep them in captivity.
4. Tityus serrulatus, parthenogenic scorpion, I kept 9 slings together for over a year, some have already reached sexual maturity.
I have attached the picture of the social huntsman and the pseudoscorpion because they are just insanely cool.