Planning on pulling P. regalis sac...opinions?

SavageDigital

Arachnosquire
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Well after my first regalis ate her sac after a few days, I'm a little paranoid about a new sac from a different female. I know the general time frame to take the sac is at 30 days. But I'm planning to take it at about 21 days and doing a manual incubation.

So really I'm looking for any of the downside of taking it at 3 weeks...why risk the sac by leaving it longer?

This is the girl in question:




Thanks,
 

Talkenlate04

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There is no disadvantage so long as you are prepared to do the whole manual incubation deal and you have everything to need to do so. I actually do pull a bit earlier then some between 21-26 days......... If you do that id say keep the sac intact till 35-40 days then open and spill them out into the hammock........ the only reason I say that is if you open the sac and spill out the eggs earily you run the risk of not keeping the humidity high enough and the eggs drying out, or to high and they mold...... when in the sac its a bit more controlled. I dont cut open my sacs till 35 days at least..........
But as mentioned if you are comfortable with taking earlier and are up for the parenting needed till they hatch go for it.
 

cacoseraph

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i would just up my rotation/manipulation rate if i removed them earlier. you are basically making sure no eggs are on the bottom of the sac constantly and no eggs stick together. i would try to rotate and lightly massage the eggsac at least 4 times a day for the first few weeks if you pull it at three weeks

i wouldn't really want to pull it much earlier than 21 days unless i had a autoincubator all set up and calibrated and ready to roll
 

SavageDigital

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Well I pulled the sac tonight, here are a few photos of that event...











This is my first egg sac (other was eaten) and I was very surprised that it felt "weighty" on my hand. Also in all honesty I can't say for certain when this sac was made, it could be a much as a week older than I'm estimating (3 weeks). So I could be crazy - but after rotating, it felt like there was some very minor movement inside. I guess another week or two and I'll take a peek at what's going on...
 

cacoseraph

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Well I pulled the sac tonight, here are a few photos of that event...



This is my first egg sac (other was eaten) and I was very surprised that it felt "weighty" on my hand. Also in all honesty I can't say for certain when this sac was made, it could be a much as a week older than I'm estimating (3 weeks). So I could be crazy - but after rotating, it felt like there was some very minor movement inside. I guess another week or two and I'll take a peek at what's going on...
holy chrome! nice sack dude! (wow, i'm *pretty* sure that's the first time i've said that!) that looks to be pretty big. don't know if their is any corellation between sac size and egg count but it looks to be twice the volume of the sac my rega produced and it had something like 150 eggs in it.

also, the "movement" you felt was almost certainly the eggs shifting aroudn themselves, due to you upsetting their initial positions from manipulation(which is what you are supposed to be doing :)) i would be extremely surprised if a 3-4wk rega sac could have self-motive nymphs in it yet.

edit:
here is the thing about opening it... right now you have no chance of introducing mold spores in the egg chamber. what is in there now is from what was in there during construction. if you open it a tiny bit the likelihood is relatively small of introducing spores, but you do somewhat comprimise the humidty regulation the seal sac provideds. i am quite probably a little overly senstive to this cuz i mold killed all but one of my rega nymphs :( i would say it is *probably* safer to wait as long as you can to open it, or at least another 4 weeks. but... plenty of ppl "get away" with it so it is not likely to be all *that* dangerous.

how's that for some mixed ass, confusing advice? =P
 

SavageDigital

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how's that for some mixed ass, confusing advice? =P
Not confusing at all and you took the time to explain why you chose to give the advice you did - the best scenario. It becomes painfully obvious that in situations like this informed advice comes like rain in a desert. But if you ask "can I handle my P. irminia" or "should I get another Cobalt Blue" you get 5 pages of replies...so my thanks again to you three who took the time.

also, the "movement" you felt was almost certainly the eggs shifting aroudn themselves, due to you upsetting their initial positions from manipulation(which is what you are supposed to be doing ) i would be extremely surprised if a 3-4wk rega sac could have self-motive nymphs in it yet.
I was thinking that as well.I remember someone writing that even as devolping eggs, they appear to be somewhat "mobile". Right now I'm rotating the sac 4 times a day (7am, 3pm, 7pm, 11pm), for 30 seconds or so - that okay?

here is the thing about opening it... right now you have no chance of introducing mold spores in the egg chamber. what is in there now is from what was in there during construction. if you open it a tiny bit the likelihood is relatively small of introducing spores, but you do somewhat comprimise the humidty regulation the seal sac provideds. i am quite probably a little overly senstive to this cuz i mold killed all but one of my rega nymphs i would say it is *probably* safer to wait as long as you can to open it, or at least another 4 weeks. but... plenty of ppl "get away" with it so it is not likely to be all *that* dangerous.
Well, I'll probably play it safe and leave them in the sac for another 4 weeks or so - then peek. Out of curiosity - is there a down-side to NOT opening the sac at 45 days and allowing the nymphs to lay in the hammock?

holy chrome! nice sack dude! (wow, i'm *pretty* sure that's the first time i've said that!) that looks to be pretty big. don't know if their is any corellation between sac size and egg count but it looks to be twice the volume of the sac my rega produced and it had something like 150 eggs in it.
Thanks - I'm certainly hoping for a good number of healthy little regalis spiderlings.
 

cacoseraph

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I was thinking that as well.I remember someone writing that even as devolping eggs, they appear to be somewhat "mobile". Right now I'm rotating the sac 4 times a day (7am, 3pm, 7pm, 11pm), for 30 seconds or so - that okay?
that was roughly the schedule i used for when i was keeping my brother's A. avic sac when we pulled it at ~4-6 weeks and everythign turned out great. i also randomly turned the sac whenever i thought about it or wanted some interaction, like. i think the more turning the better at this stage, as long as your are being fairly gentle with it.


Well, I'll probably play it safe and leave them in the sac for another 4 weeks or so - then peek. Out of curiosity - is there a down-side to NOT opening the sac at 45 days and allowing the nymphs to lay in the hammock?
one downside to letting a completely natural hatch (well, not scissoring it open at any point) is that sometimes their can actually be mold spores included in the sac when the mom lays it initially. from reading this seems to be fairly/quite rare... but without any hard data it is pretty much impossible to give good odds for one over the other. another thing is that there are black eggs sometimes. dunno what exactly makes them, though i suspect not getting fertilized might have somethign to do with it. but it seems like those or possibly burst eggs from rough handing (not necesarily from manipulating it... the mom could have dropped the sac or something) can really wreak havoc on the rest of the eggs that would be viable other wise.

like i said, it's really hard to know what the absolute best path cuz there seems to be so many variables. i would say if you suspect something is going wrong (cuz you dropped the sac or something) than opening the sac earlier could more safely be advised... otherwise it *seems* like waiting until 8+ weeks is the safest bet.

really, i need more freaking data to say anythign for sure though

at least hopefully i gave you one or two more brain nuggets to chew on
 

SavageDigital

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Just an update...the waiting got the better of me and I opened up the sac tonight. It looked like I had around 100 eggs (a total guess), 6 or so were black, and another 6 had legs. I can clearly see leg development in most others and I suspect that they will show soon.

Now that I know the eggs are viable - I can worry a little more, just about new things :)
 

Alice

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congrats :D

i just had a similar experience in the last few days and thought i'd share it with you - maybe it helps.

i pulled my a. versicolor's sac too early. uh, didn't know she'd built one, it was 5 months after a pretty short mating :eek:, and i tried to clean the tank... so anyway, she got very nervous and tore at the sac. so i resolved to take it, because i was just too afraid she might eat it.

next problem: she didn't let go but tore the sac open when i tried to take it :wall:.

so i set up an incubator with VERY wet vermiculite and a bit of ventilation (but not too much). my hammock for the eggs is a piece of nylon stocking. i put the eggs (around 100 perfect eggs, none spoiled, but no development yet) on a pice of paper tissue in the stocking and change that paper twice a day for hygienic reasons. under the incubator is a weak heat mat, so that moisture raises constantly to the eggs. we turned the eggs about 4-6 times a day.

and guess what, after about a week, they got legs! it only took about 24 hours for all eggs to molt into postembryos. so the chance of succeeding with eggs is ok as long as you are prepared to make the effort :D.

now i'm waiting for the eggs with legs to molt again and hope that all will be well.
 

SavageDigital

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in response to your original question.. mother knows best.
I'm pretty sure I didn't ask a question that this is an answer to :rolleyes:

i just had a similar experience in the last few days and thought i'd share it with you - maybe it helps.
Thanks for posting, I've read your experiences in the original post - good luck to you as well.
 

Alice

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i just posted an update in a new thread - i seem to have lightning fast slings-to-be...
plz keep us posted how your egg development goes.
 

SavageDigital

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the question was,"Why risk the sac by leaving it longer?"

and in response to that question,"because mother knows best." :?
I appreciate the input, but it's commonly accepted that there are valid reasons to pull the sac and artificially incubate it, be it at 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or a month in. With my question I was looking for direct information about egg development that makes one time point to pull the sac better than another. Not really looking for a general comment about not pulling sacs - after I've clearly pulled mine already.

So I'm assuming you've successfully bred Poecilotheria and have always left the sac with the mother without incident - right?
 

massmorels

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I agree with the statement you made about artificial incubation.. I dont normally resort that myself though. I find it more benaficial from a research standpoint to leave it with the mother. Doing so gives me more information about her and what to expect from her in the future, i.e..success, eating the sac, etc. So, all in all I guess I should've just kept my mouth shut in this thread and/or read a little better about what it was I thought you were asking.

why would you assume that?
 

DrAce

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Experience and Pulling Sacs

I've never had the pleasure of pulling a sac (urm... maybe that should be better worded... ;) ) but given that you had a bad experience, NeoScales, I would have done exactly what you did.

This site is all about asking people for advice based on their opinion, experience and research. Personally, I rank the validity of the information in the order research = experience > opinion.

You had the experience to make a decision in this case, and good on you for following it through. Sometimes Mother doesn't know best at all. I can rattle of a short list of these examples, if anyone really wants them.

Good luck with the wee fellahs... I think they'll be fine, and it seems they are in the best of hands.
 

ShadowBlade

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Sometimes Mother doesn't know best at all.
See, there's a fine line there between a Mother's mistake, and OUR mistakes. Just because you leave a sac with a female, and she eats it, given it was a perfectly healthy sac, she was probably provoked to from outside stimuli.

Since we aren't keeping them in a completely natural environment, and I know many people that prod, push, check, shine a light in, bump the cage etc.. and get mad when the sac is eaten.

Many species make excellent mothers, such as Tapinauchenis, and yet there are some species I won't trust with a sac, no matter how careful I am around her.

Just another point to consider..

-Sean
 

DrAce

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Ahh, but that external stimulus didn't make the mother right, did it. She was most certainly wrong... she was lead to make an impulse decision.

Anyway, it's a mute point. NeoScales moved the goal-posts from the maternal instincs. He wanted healthy babies, despite what Mum wanted. This is far more philosophical than the original thread requires, though.
 
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