Phasmatodea Legality

[ReignofInvertebrates]

Are there any species of exotic Phasmids that are legal to keep in the US? I saw a few sellers with Peruphasma schultei for sale, which was tempting, but I can't imagine they are legal in the states. Underground Reptiles also has a Malaysian species for sale (I would never order any inverts from them personally, but I'm wondering why they haven't been shut down for selling these). Perhaps I'm just mistaken and some of these species are legal to keep. Any experts out there that can shed some light on this?

 

[Smotzer]

It’s a tricky subject, don’t tell anyone lol, but years ago I did a lot of non native Phasmatodea breeding. It’s my favorite Order.
The exotic species that come into the US like the Persuphasma are here, if they came in legally, because someone in the importation process had filed for PPQ 526 reasearch purposes for entomological or university study purposes.
But as far as I know the sale of certain species isn’t a legal process, despite it going on, like the P. schultei. In that permit pests can not be moved from original area, except with prior approval from state and federal officials, they have to be destroyed at end of use, and only be kept in lab or in designated area of permit holders address. So I see no way of selling non-natives as legal. Unless there’s something I’ve been missing for years and years lol
But things like Extatosma tiaratum and Phyllium spp. Have been in the US awhile.

Currently on the list or prohibited or regulated pests, its confusing because they list species as Phasmatodea, order Phasmatodea, which lends its self to cover everything in the order. (Ugh)
but specifically regulated is Aplopus sp. , Aretaon asperrimus, Medauroidea extradentata, Carausius morosus, and then the entire family of Heteronemiidae.

 

[Hisserdude]

Pretty sure almost everyone keeping and selling exotic Phasmids in the US is doing so illegally. Popularity in keeping these species and the openness of doing so seems to be increasing, which I think will eventually lead to some USDA crackdowns.

 

[ReignofInvertebrates]

Pretty sure almost everyone keeping and selling exotic Phasmids in the US is doing so illegally. Popularity in keeping these species and the openness of doing so seems to be increasing, which I think will eventually lead to some USDA crackdowns.

That's why I was so shocked to see them advertised so publicly. I know the USDA is super strict about potential pest species so I'm surprised they haven't done anything sooner.

 

[mantisfan101]

Don’t get them, they are one of the few sp that will likely get you a knock on the door. I’ve heard about usfws or usda officers patrolling some reptile expos, and it still shocks me to this day why on earth anyone would try to keep them here despite knowing how strict the usda is with them. What’s even more shocking is how many people continue to regularly post about it publicly

 

[Smotzer]

Don’t get them, they are one of the few sp that will likely get you a knock on the door. I’ve heard about usfws or usda officers patrolling some reptile expos, and it still shocks me to this day why on earth anyone would try to keep them here despite knowing how strict the usda is with them. What’s even more shocking is how many people continue to regularly post about it publicly

Exactly!!

 

[pannaking22]

That's why I was so shocked to see them advertised so publicly. I know the USDA is super strict about potential pest species so I'm surprised they haven't done anything sooner.

They're aware of it and I'm sure something is coming. Hopefully not something too strict, but when you have a bunch of people showing them off even though they're obviously illegal it doesn't exactly fill me with hope. Though I suspect what will happen is the buyers won't necessarily get crushed, maybe just someone showing up and confiscating them. The people illegally importing them on the other hand...

Don’t get them, they are one of the few sp that will likely get you a knock on the door. I’ve heard about usfws or usda officers patrolling some reptile expos, and it still shocks me to this day why on earth anyone would try to keep them here despite knowing how strict the usda is with them. What’s even more shocking is how many people continue to regularly post about it publicly

They check social media and forums like AB too.

 

[mantisfan101]

This whole issue just feels like one big ticking time bomb, with everyone posting more and more about their exotic stick insects becausethe usda seems more “relaxed” about people keeping them

 

[Arthroverts]

The only species of phasmid you can keep are the ones native to your state; you cannot transfer any native phasmid species across state lines legally without a PPQ526 permit for them, which most people don't have. Even if you do get one, it seems (from what I hear) the USDA/APHIS prohibits you from raising multiple generations of the species in question.

Exotics are completely off the table right now it seems, even zoos and other such institutions are struggling to get PPQ526's for them. That said that side of the hobby is growing, both under the radar and in plain sight, and while I'm happy to see beautiful species being kept successfully, I'm also uneasy about what might be coming. Naturally the USDA/APHIS doesn't have the resources to track down everyone with them, and I highly doubt they would even if they did because there are bigger fish to fry elsewhere, but it would not surprise me if they made examples of people who were particularly public about having them/sellers.

USFWS doesn't care so much about exotic invertebrates, I've been to multiple shows were the USFWS had a booth and just a few tables down someone was selling assassin bugs and even phasmids. It's the USDA/APHIS who bust people on things like this, and they are more rarely seen at shows (their presence on forums however is known).

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[mantisfan101]

I am personally against keeping exotic phasmids, since they are one of the few regulated species that actually poses a threat to the native ecosystem, and looking back on how people had messed up prior with other species, history definitely can and will repeat itself

 

[Arthroverts]

Well, here's to hoping history doesn't repeat itself this time around.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

The only species of phasmid you can keep are the ones native to your state; you cannot transfer any native phasmid species across state lines legally without a PPQ526 permit for them, which most people don't have. Even if you do get one, it seems (from what I hear) the USDA/APHIS prohibits you from raising multiple generations of the species in question.

Exotics are completely off the table right now it seems, even zoos and other such institutions are struggling to get PPQ526's for them. That said that side of the hobby is growing, both under the radar and in plain sight, and while I'm happy to see beautiful species being kept successfully, I'm also uneasy about what might be coming. Naturally the USDA/APHIS doesn't have the resources to track down everyone with them, and I highly doubt they would even if they did because there are bigger fish to fry elsewhere, but it would not surprise me if they made examples of people who were particularly public about having them/sellers.

USFWS doesn't care so much about exotic invertebrates, I've been to multiple shows were the USFWS had a booth and just a few tables down someone was selling assassin bugs and even phasmids. It's the USDA/APHIS who bust people on things like this, and they are more rarely seen at shows (their presence on forums however is known).

Thanks,

Arthroverts

First, the USDA has not been prohibiting breeding during the duration of a phasmid permits valid period as far as I am aware. Additionally, I cannot really think of how they could honestly authorize some of these species without understanding that they are going to breed whether you want them to or not. Second, exotics should not be off the table for those with the proper containment facilities, except for Carausius morosus.

 

[Smotzer]

First, the USDA has not been prohibiting breeding during the duration of a phasmid permits valid period as far as I am aware

Yes but that permit exist only for the holder, breeding and then selling them to other people who do not have permits is a violation of the PPQ 526 permit. As they have left the designated and documented containment facility, and the USDA was not made aware of any interstate travel with plant pests, which had to occur. How else are they going to keep track on where potentially invasive plant pests and pathogens are.

they are rather strict about this, I’ve had to document interstate travel of certain plants. And they don’t want another massive spread like spotted lantern fly, or emerald ash borer, and these weren’t even intentional. I hate the law, cause Phasmatodea is my favorite order and I’ve had to stop keeping exotic phasmids mainly due to in my career I have personally seen what plant pests have the potential to do as far as damage goes on a seriously large scale problem level.
We’re not really qualified to make the assessment, we here on AB might be more responsible in not introducing any of them into the wild, but we’re a small percent, some of the public isn’t aware they they are indeed plant pests and have the potential to do irreparable damage to the ecosystem if joe smo buys some exotic phasmids and gets bored of them and has a gravid female, or a parthenogenic one, that lays lots of ova that hatch and begin feeding on available host plants. I hate the law but it is there for a very valid reason. Plant pests and pathogens are no joke.

 

[Arthroverts]

First, the USDA has not been prohibiting breeding during the duration of a phasmid permits valid period as far as I am aware. Additionally, I cannot really think of how they could honestly authorize some of these species without understanding that they are going to breed whether you want them to or not. Second, exotics should not be off the table for those with the proper containment facilities, except for Carausius morosus.

I have heard a report of all eggs from a permitted species needing to be sterilized, thus eliminating the possibility of keeping a culture going. Notice I didn't say anything about them prohibiting breeding itself.

True, but all for all practical purposes the required containment facility necessary for phasmids would very likely put them out of the reach of the general public. That was what I was trying to say.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[The Mantis Menagerie]

Yes but that permit exist only for the holder, breeding and then selling them to other people who do not have permits is a violation of the PPQ 526 permit.

The permits authorize keeping of an insect species at a specified location, so yes, distributing phasmids is illegal (unless for some reason the USDA were to grant a Commercial Biological Supply permit, but that is out of the question). I was referring to breeding the organism at the authorized facility. Until Arthroverts brought it up, I had never heard of the USDA forcing a permitted institution to kill all eggs yet allowing the culture to remain until it dwindled naturally.

I have heard a report of all eggs from a permitted species needing to be sterilized, thus eliminating the possibility of keeping a culture going. Notice I didn't say anything about them prohibiting breeding itself.

True, but all for all practical purposes the required containment facility necessary for phasmids would very likely put them out of the reach of the general public. That was what I was trying to say.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

My local insectariums have never had issues keeping large colonies of their regulated phasmid species. I was not aware that the USDA would instruct certain permit holders to stop reproduction without just revoking the permit and prompting them to kill all the specimens.
I was addressing the part about zoos and the like struggling with phasmid permits. As far as I know, there have not been issues with permitting in this respect. Most institutions are having trouble with quarantines, if anything, and I don’t know of many that are trying to vigorously expand their collections or displays in ways that would require a bunch of new permits. I was even told by the USDA that it is a fairly slow time for permitting, and the processing time should be reduced.

 

[MasterOogway]

We've never been told, as an institution, to stop breeding any of our regulated insects. As long as you keep on your permit and pass your inspections, they don't really care what you breed in house. Sending to other institutions is fine too as long as you both possess a PPQ 526 for the relevant species. I've worked with several other zoos over the past year with them getting permits so we could send them some surplus and all their processes have been pretty smooth, both in amending an existing permit or applying and getting a completely new one. Anywhere from a few weeks to at most 6ish months for a brand new permit.

 

[ReignofInvertebrates]

We've never been told, as an institution, to stop breeding any of our regulated insects. As long as you keep on your permit and pass your inspections, they don't really care what you breed in house. Sending to other institutions is fine too as long as you both possess a PPQ 526 for the relevant species. I've worked with several other zoos over the past year with them getting permits so we could send them some surplus and all their processes have been pretty smooth, both in amending an existing permit or applying and getting a completely new one. Anywhere from a few weeks to at most 6ish months for a brand new permit.

That's good to know. Unfortunately most of the sellers that I see are not going the legal route and are not working for an institution. Even if they are, they are being quite ignorant by advertising to customers without verifying that they have the proper permits as well.

 

[MasterOogway]

That's good to know. Unfortunately most of the sellers that I see are not going the legal route and are not working for an institution. Even if they are, they are being quite ignorant by advertising to customers without verifying that they have the proper permits as well.

Most folks do not care at all for animal regulations. At some point, if this hobby continues to grow (and we get a political administration that actually gives a rat's ass about environmental regulations) folks are gonna start getting smacked by APHIS for illegally selling things. As they very well should, in my opinion. Many of the things we work with are absolutely potentially invasive and dangerous to the environment if they escape, and a good number of 'hobbyists' do not take that danger seriously. It will at some point, ruin it for the responsible ones. It happens in my other favorite hobby (frogs) relatively regularly. Then you'll see far fewer sales since permits are a pain to get for private citizens.

At any rate, if you have a legal permit for your inverts, it's not actually your (seller's) responsibility to verify permits of every customer, as far as I know. I never deal with the private sector in that respect so I may be wrong here, but I believe the responsibility lies with the buyer, not the seller there, as far as permits go.

 

[Arthroverts]

At any rate, if you have a legal permit for your inverts, it's not actually your (seller's) responsibility to verify permits of every customer, as far as I know. I never deal with the private sector in that respect so I may be wrong here, but I believe the responsibility lies with the buyer, not the seller there, as far as permits go.

You have to include a copy of the buyer's permit/permit number with the package, so in a way yes, you would still need to verify.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[sschind]

Don’t get them, they are one of the few sp that will likely get you a knock on the door. I’ve heard about usfws or usda officers patrolling some reptile expos, and it still shocks me to this day why on earth anyone would try to keep them here despite knowing how strict the usda is with them. What’s even more shocking is how many people continue to regularly post about it publicly

I would say that it is very possible they do not know. The fact that the question is asked just goes to show it may not be common knowledge. I can guarantee you 99% of the people I know outside the hobby (and many within the hobby) have no idea and if they were to go to a show and see them and decide they were too cool to resist they would not be informed because the seller certainly isn't going to tell them even if he is aware. At one show I attend a guy has some on a fairly regular basis and he insists they are legal. I've seen them at the Tinley Park show and I would guess that USDA officials would be present at a show like that. Like others have said it is likely that the USDA is aware of many of these sellers but they do not have the resources to go after every small timer. It doesn't really surprise me that certain individual websites will list them but I am kind of surprised that sites like this one (not saying Arachnoboards in particular but others like it) allow them to be listed. I'm sure they don't screen every ad and its possible they just don't know if the ads are not reported. I spoke with one permit holder at an event near Chicago a couple of years ago who had been breeding one species for several years. She told me the permits were not that hard to get for the right people but that the requirements for making you a right person were pretty strict. She also said the permits were very specific and very strict as to what ther holder could do with the animals in question. Like I said this was a few years ago so things may have changed regarding the permits and the chances of getting them. I am not and likely never will be a right person so I never looked into it.

Most folks do not care at all for animal regulations. At some point, if this hobby continues to grow (and we get a political administration that actually gives a rat's ass about environmental regulations) folks are gonna start getting smacked by APHIS for illegally selling things. As they very well should, in my opinion. Many of the things we work with are absolutely potentially invasive and dangerous to the environment if they escape, and a good number of 'hobbyists' do not take that danger seriously. It will at some point, ruin it for the responsible ones. It happens in my other favorite hobby (frogs) relatively regularly. Then you'll see far fewer sales since permits are a pain to get for private citizens.

At any rate, if you have a legal permit for your inverts, it's not actually your (seller's) responsibility to verify permits of every customer, as far as I know. I never deal with the private sector in that respect so I may be wrong here, but I believe the responsibility lies with the buyer, not the seller there, as far as permits go.

I agree with your first part many people just don't care. As far as your second point about buyers vs sellers I would guess it would all depend on the type and purpose of the permit and what it allows. Take the western hognose snake in Illinois for example. You need a permit to keep one but if you have the permit you can buy and sell them. New buyers of course are required to have a permit as well but I am not sure if the seller has to verify that before the sale or not. However, the purpose of that permit is very different from the purpose of the type of permits required for exotic phasmids. As far as I know those permits allow the holder to keep and breed the animals specified in the permit but do not allow them to sell to anyone except perhaps another permit holder. In that case the onus would certainly be on the seller to verify the prospective buyer had the necessary permit to keep them.