Pet laws (past or present) that are or were not right

[Ripa]

Ferrets were banned in California LONG before Arnold Schwarzenegger was elected. It was HE, in fact, who suggested a "ferret amnesty bill", a sort of "don't ask, don't tell", but it failed to pass the state's legislature. The ban on ferrets is based on the false notion held by the CA DNR that ferrets are wild animals that will escape and form wild colonies of ravening beasts. It is ironic, and not in a funny way at all, that most of you on this thread are B&Ming about the members of the Republican party or Conservatives in general, and do not consider for one second that overwhelmingly, the majority of anti-pet, pro-Animal Rights laws, in other words, the UNJUST laws regarding animals, are sponsored and passed by Liberal politicians and administrations, especially the so-called "Progressives". THOSE are the ones who are in the pockets of the powerful groups who are behind these bans and inclusion in the Lacey Act. HSUS has members heading several key Departments in the current administration, including the US Sec. of Agriculture, Tom Vilsack, and the head of USFWS, David Ashe. Those groups find little support among Conservative politicians in general. If you own animals, breed animals, eat animals, sell animals, you are cutting off your own nose to spite your face to support politicians who agree with groups who want to take away your right to do those things.

pitbulllady

Who said I was bashing any particular party? I just heard that it was Schwarzenegger who was the one that promoted the ferret ban. No need to get all uptight about it. And my mistake was it that Schwarzenegger was the one who allowed the anti-ferret bill to pass, but he did in fact vetoed a bill that was pro-ferret back in 2004.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/14/local/la-me-ferrets-activist-20130114

"Wright ran for Assembly and then lieutenant governor on a free-the-ferrets platform (and lost badly both times). He sued the Fish and Game Commission (and lost). He formed Ferrets Anonymous to gather political clout. He became an officer in the local Libertarian Party.

He held rallies in Sacramento and San Diego. He went to county jail for 17 terrifying days after tussling with a Fish and Game inspector who tried to seize one of his ferrets over an alleged biting incident at a rally.

He came close to victory in 2004 when the Legislature, after considerable hectoring, passed a bill dropping the ban. The bill was vetoed by then-Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, despite the governor's starring role in the movie "Kindergarten Cop," in which he appeared with a ferret."

http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040930/news_1n30ferret.html

"SACRAMENTO – Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger shared the silver screen with a ferret, but he apparently isn't ready to share the state with them.

The governor vetoed amnesty legislation yesterday, which means as many as 500,000 California ferrets will remain on the lam, still fugitives after 70 years.

"I love ferrets. I co-starred with a ferret in 'Kindergarten Cop,' " Schwarzenegger insisted in his veto message. "However, this bill is too bureaucratic and it legalizes ferrets prior to conducting an environmental impact report.""

 

[The Snark]

Let's call a halt to which is slimier, the republicrats or democans. Any self respecting thinking person wouldn't bother to cross the street to shake hands with almost all of them. I would though, to spit on a few.

You can't go by legislation passed or unpassed as there is a very common trick of sliding nasty legislation into an otherwise well intended act. Right now various scumball rat poops are sneaking anti abortion legislation into entirely unrelated issues. (DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT BIBLE THUMPING HERE. Abortion is a medical procedure between a person and a health provider. The Hippocratic oath should supersede ALL legal horsepies.

There has been only one major personage in recent years who was completely transparent, above board, reputable, honest, and placed the people of amerICKa first and foremost and Mr. Nader never got to first base against the $$$ machine. So drop the slap shots. I don't care if it is minty or honey-lemon delicious, poop is still poop. Chewing it is bad enough. Swallowing it and barfing it on others is serious low life.

GET YOUR BUTTS AND BRAINS BACK INTO PROPER CONTEXT AND YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT! Oh save my right to keep cute widdle ferrets! What about African Elephants? Rhinos? The other thousands of critically endangered animals? What about nutrient rich bioactive top soil? What about California running out of water and Los Anglesleeze stealing most of what water is left so they can have green lawns?

GET REAL! Hugging your ferrets while we continue unrelenting rapacious destruction of the entire planet and looking Ragnarok dead in the face. Are you that fooking stupid?

 

[viper69]

Snark I think you are overlooking the obvious -- abortion is the same thing as killing fetus Jesus, it's practically like the body of Christ. How insensitive of you!

 

[The Snark]

Snark I think you are overlooking the obvious -- abortion is the same thing as killing fetus Jesus, it's practically like the body of Christ. How insensitive of you!

There are those in the medical profession who regularly let people die, myself included. Does anyone care to take on the centuries old paradox and debate of Hippocratic Oath vs triage? Do you really want religious fanatic lawmakers getting involved in that? Save a baby and let the mother die? Since you want to invoke the almighty, take your turn at playing god. It's a hard enough job without fact and science free legislators injecting their often utterly hypocritical opinions into things.

Indignation is cheaper that dirt. How about Mary N. 32 year old mother of three, ages 1, 3, and 4. Trapped in a relationship with an overbearing abusive alcoholic husband. Pregnant again last I saw her. Her diagnosis was progressive cardio-myopathy. Prognosis, no more than 10 years to live but already approaching cardiovascular collapse. She wanted an abortion.
Get real. It's between the patient and the medical provider and has no business being discussed by right wing religious fanatic lawmakers.

 

[Najakeeper]

True progressives are behind regulation that makes sense based on data. For example, a permit system for venomous snakes, where an idiot kid that Snark described above cannot get a cobra on a whim but responsible trained adults can get one. There is not a progressive bone left in the leadership of the Democratic Party. As Republicans go further right, they follow. The ultra right wing government of Turkey passes laws weekly , which would have been called "Communist" in the current political climate of the US! Think about it! How more right can you go? Frankly, I do not understand how a party run by people, who deny basic science like "Climate Change" or "Evolution" can be taken seriously with anything they propose! But the "bought and paid for" Democrats are no better.

There is a single solution to all this, get money out of politics via a Constitutional Amendment. That's the only fix.

To answer the OPs question, the blanket venomous bans in most US states are quite unfair and are one of the reasons why I left the country.

 

[The Snark]

Do away with the United States of Plutocratic Oligarchy? HERETIC!
Najakeeper, be honest. The hoops of fire you had to jump through to keep animals when you ensconced yourself in Swissville would benefit animals and keepers alike in America. Not saying that is the end all be all solution, but at least it would weed out some of the keepers of animated toys.

 

[Najakeeper]

Do away with the United States of Plutocratic Oligarchy? HERETIC!
Najakeeper, be honest. The hoops of fire you had to jump through to keep animals when you ensconced yourself in Swissville would benefit animals and keepers alike in America. Not saying that is the end all be all solution, but at least it would weed out some of the keepers of animated toys.

It would. If a person is not willing to spend the capital, time and effort to get the necessary permits, then I don't think they are ready for responsible animal ownership. They may be ready for the easy days but they surely aren't ready for the vet bills, the potential liability costs, the health risks etc. There is no easy, 100% solution to the problems we face in the hobby but neither a blanket ban nor a libertarian approach is the way to go IMHO.

 

[The Snark]

It would. If a person is not willing to spend the capital, time and effort to get the necessary permits, then I don't think they are ready for responsible animal ownership. They may be ready for the easy days but they surely aren't ready for the vet bills, the potential liability costs, the health risks etc. There is no easy, 100% solution to the problems we face in the hobby but neither a blanket ban nor a libertarian approach is the way to go IMHO.

People seldom fully realize just how much work, diligence, and time can go into keeping an animal. Even a domestic pet like an amiable healthy cur can be a major problem. I've got a perfect example with our dog. 2 solid years of gaining his trust. The breakthrough came this week with him letting me put him on a leash without him cowering. Looks like it will be another year before I can lead him around. It doesn't matter what the animal is. We must meet a criteria, providing and caring for that animal under any and all circumstances without exceptions. Personal responsibility. No amount of offcious laws are going to replace that. All too often the laws simply give a false sense of security while the irresponsible go on their merry way.

So how about laws that are utterly ridiculous? I happen to have encountered one.

Many years ago I got stopped at a vehicle inspection station in Oregon. I was a little concerned as my vehicle of choice was sort of a disaster. Let's call it mangled. Among other dents and dings it's windshield was smashed and almost opaque in places.
Well, the cops were very thorough. Checked my parking brake worked properly, all lights worked, brakes up off the floor and so on. One cop checked my windshield wipers and had me turn them on. Then they just sent me on my way.
It turns out there is a law in that state that you have to have functional windshield wipers. Though things may have been amended since, there was no law requiring a windshield.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

It would. If a person is not willing to spend the capital, time and effort to get the necessary permits, then I don't think they are ready for responsible animal ownership. They may be ready for the easy days but they surely aren't ready for the vet bills, the potential liability costs, the health risks etc. There is no easy, 100% solution to the problems we face in the hobby but neither a blanket ban nor a libertarian approach is the way to go IMHO.

this is why i really don't have any issue with the CPS or venomous permits here in FL. Most of the requirements are pretty much what should be standard when dealing with animals that can be dangerous. Labels? Locking cages? Disaster plans? Training? FWC, or at least the people keepers interact with most, are quite helpful and very open to assisting people fulfill said requirements.

Only part i have an issue with is requiring the same standard for Gilas and beadeds as a cobra or viper. Personally, i think the Helos should be conditional species.

 

[TheHonestPirate]

Well shoot old gal, that's the basis of modern day western laws in Europe and America. They were founded and implemented by the church that preyed upon the ignorance of the masses in order to push their hidden covert agendas.

But that aside, two points. The majority of the victims of these laws are ignorant. The populous that is. High school graduates that could not pass a practical applied SAT test to save their lives. 6th grade or below. Basic algebra, proper spelling and grammar using 1/4 or more of the available words of their native language, world geography, science, all fail miserably. Forget strong force, quantum mechanics, erudite word usage, intro to stoichiometry and the rest of college prep. They are sheep and don't have the education to do anything but follow the noise they find the most up in their faces.
We have dozens of sterling examples of this at present. The brainless but popular law makers. George W, Michele Bachman, Sarah Palin. They are pushing and promoting laws rarely based on solid scientific facts. Look at climate change deniers, denying basic physics. Look at California's prop 8. Popular noise governing the sheep. Of course you are going to get idiotic laws. Socialism! Just say the word and point and the masses hate on command. Ignore the fact America and much of Europe runs on socialism. Schools, police, fire, infrastructure, social security and so on.
So why should animal laws be any different? There are way too many morons who will screw up and endanger the environment with their animal toys. And the laws are just populist agendas of moronic lawmakers.

Then the other aspect. Laws that protect people from themselves. IE, victimless crimes. 30 years in jail for smoking pot. Fines and penalties for jaywalking and so on. In so many words, 'You are too stupid to survive on your own so we make laws to protect you from yourself.'

Well folks, don't touch that dial. Your animal possession rights suffer. Join the crowd. Until the concept Socrates put across becomes mainstream, this is the best you are going to get. Fox News and friends are the present guiding light. Bask in it's brilliant glow.

I thoroughly enjoyes reading that amd couldn't help but laugh at the sad truth.

---------- Post added 03-18-2015 at 07:38 PM ----------

God damn phone is so hard to type correctly on.

 

[The Snark]

this is why i really don't have any issue with the CPS or venomous permits here in FL. Most of the requirements are pretty much what should be standard when dealing with animals that can be dangerous. Labels? Locking cages? Disaster plans? Training? FWC, or at least the people keepers interact with most, are quite helpful and very open to assisting people fulfill said requirements.

Only part i have an issue with is requiring the same standard for Gilas and beadeds as a cobra or viper. Personally, i think the Helos should be conditional species.

Same standard. It has to be that way. Nobody wants laws that differentiate each and every aspect of a crime. They could implement similar degrees as is done with penal codes but you will still get gray areas and overlaps. Accidentally discharging a firearm under restricted circumstances or firing a warning shot, or repeatedly ramming your oversized pick up truck into a vehicle with bystanders present is assault with a deadly weapon. Large intimidating man bellowing into some little old lady's face or a drunk maniac comes at you fists clenched and throwing punches. The former is force fear, the latter is aggravated, but both are under the same assault law.

They really should apply degrees to the animal laws however. They mostly haven't gone that far and aren't that sophisticated ... yet... if ever. For example, a noodlehead yeehaw collects some rattlers and tosses them in a pit. Drunk buddy comes along one night during a bender and gets tagged. Suppose Najakeeper with all the stringent regulations and training did get tagged by that airhead move with an adder. Look at it in the vein of the penal code, the former is deliberate felonious irresponsibility, the latter would be misdemeanor or infraction brainfart. That would make a lot more sense, but then there and hundreds of thousands more people involved in making and enforcing human laws than animal ones.

Or purely animal based. That coiled viper and an early morning yawning krait. Enter the strike zone of the former and you will get a serious strike coming your way. You bare handed pick up the handful of kraits like a pile of oversized spaghetti to put them in a bucket to clean their containment. The kraits are far deadlier but... The same law applies to both.

Or the same animal. Take your average person who wants to own a cobra in AmericaL WOW!! I'm gonna get me a cobra and show all my drinkin buddies! Should the same law apply to him as the the guy in the picture who started handling kaouthai about the same time he learned to walk?


As a bonus here. Can anyone tell me why the guy in the picture is in no danger of getting tagged?

 

[Ripa]

Removed the fangs, of course. Isn't that also a common practice with snake charmers in India. Now granted, these fangs do grow back eventually... but I could only imagine how hard it is for them to catch food, as I highly doubt pre-killed is offered in those countries. I know they like removing the forcipules of centipedes in certain countries that have them, as well. Can't deal with an animal's bite, then don't own it to begin with- don't alter the animal because you want to.
This is my philosophy with dog breeds as well- cropping ears, I don't find ethical- it's only for aesthetics.

 

[pyro fiend]

Removed the fangs, of course. Isn't that also a common practice with snake charmers in India. Now granted, these fangs do grow back eventually... but I could only imagine how hard it is for them to catch food, as I highly doubt pre-killed is offered in those countries. I know they like removing the forcipules of centipedes in certain countries that have them, as well. Can't deal with an animal's bite, then don't own it to begin with- don't alter the animal because you want to.
This is my philosophy with dog breeds as well- cropping ears, I don't find ethical- it's only for aesthetics.

Agreed.. Tho i do know a fellow who has a few dogs that eat sleep and work with the sheep and cattle and must protect them from wolves/coyotes... So their dogs have the old sephard cut. As they learned the hard way loosing a dog and some of their flock because if the floppy ears.the coyotes get them by the ear and not all dogs will just rip their own ear off to keep fighting.. One or two had the ears and one went for the kill... So in those instances as a full time work dog i approve..But the "lets make our dog cute and his ears perky" type of cutting is pathetic..

 

[Ripa]

Agreed.. Tho i do know a fellow who has a few dogs that eat sleep and work with the sheep and cattle and must protect them from wolves/coyotes... So their dogs have the old sephard cut. As they learned the hard way loosing a dog and some of their flock because if the floppy ears.the coyotes get them by the ear and not all dogs will just rip their own ear off to keep fighting.. One or two had the ears and one went for the kill... So in those instances as a full time work dog i approve..But the "lets make our dog cute and his ears perky" type of cutting is pathetic..

I think it's more like "let's make our dog look more menacing and cool by cropping his ears!" And yea, I can see where cropping ears comes into play, but so many people just do it for "aesthetic" purposes. My dad owned a doberman and never wanted to crop his ears because he saw no reason to. Breed standards for many dogs are... kinda demanding on the animal.

 

[pyro fiend]

I think it's more like "let's make our dog look more menacing and cool by cropping his ears!" And yea, I can see where cropping ears comes into play, but so many people just do it for "aesthetic" purposes. My dad owned a doberman and never wanted to crop his ears because he saw no reason to. Breed standards for many dogs are... kinda demanding on the animal.

Gah ikr.. how about tail doxking on house dogs-.-

 

[The Snark]

Removed the fangs, of course. Isn't that also a common practice with snake charmers in India. Now granted, these fangs do grow back eventually... but I could only imagine how hard it is for them to catch food, as I highly doubt pre-killed is offered in those countries. I know they like removing the forcipules of centipedes in certain countries that have them, as well. Can't deal with an animal's bite, then don't own it to begin with- don't alter the animal because you want to.
This is my philosophy with dog breeds as well- cropping ears, I don't find ethical- it's only for aesthetics.

Not. Most (if not all) Cobras strike on a vertical axis with the motion forwards in relation to the mass of their body. In order to bite it needs purchase on a surface or object to overcome the moment of inertia. As held in the picture it can only strike, weakly, straight down. As long as he keeps the snake from wrapping on itself or his leg he's perfectly safe. In this case the hood isn't even up so it's not aggravated and ready to go to guns.

While undoubtedly de-fanging is the order of the day in many places, at that snake farm it's a matter of face and pride that they don't. In the case of the old male, ~20 feet of bad attitude it would be understandable to defang. Instead, his cage is cleaned and feeding done with poles through trap doors in the roof of his cage which is almost 15 feet high.

If we wanted to solve a lot of the idiots keeping animals and causing ridiculous laws to be enacted, we should advocate one of these in every home of potential animal keepers as a training snake. (That's 1/2 inch heavy wire mesh with the nylon screen in front of it.)

 

[Ripa]

Not. Most (if not all) Cobras strike on a vertical axis with the motion forwards in relation to the mass of their body. In order to bite it needs purchase on a surface or object to overcome the moment of inertia. As held in the picture it can only strike, weakly, straight down. As long as he keeps the snake from wrapping on itself or his leg he's perfectly safe. In this case the hood isn't even up so it's not aggravated and ready to go to guns.

Always something less obvious... Nonetheless, a lot of regions in places like India practice the tradition of fang removal in cobras when it comes to snake charming. Although this is from Thailand, isn't it (at least that's what the URL is indicative of). I'm not sure how their practices are with snakes over there. I've observed some individuals in a video with a "defanged" (really de-forcipuled or de-legged) centipede around that area, but that's a different scenario altogether.

EDIT: Well, I'm glad that they take the liberty of not actually altering the animals to suite their preferences. I wouldn't even see a point of owning it anymore if it is altered (that is, if I were to think like someone who owned the animal for solely the "wow" or "thrill" factor)- you want to own a venomous animal, but take the source of fulfillment you wanted from owning it in the first place. How ironic!

 

[The Snark]

Always something less obvious... Nonetheless, a lot of regions in places like India practice the tradition of fang removal in cobras when it comes to snake charming. Although this is from Thailand, isn't it (at least that's what the URL is indicative of). I'm not sure how their practices are with snakes over there. I've observed some individuals in a video with a "defanged" (really de-forcipuled or de-legged) centipede around that area, but that's a different scenario altogether.

EDIT: Well, I'm glad that they take the liberty of not actually altering the animals to suite their preferences. I wouldn't even see a point of owning it anymore if it is altered (that is, if I were to think like someone who owned the animal for solely the "wow" or "thrill" factor)- you want to own a venomous animal, but take the source of fulfillment you wanted from owning it in the first place. How ironic!

Can't speak for all Thai's but the select group of animal keepers I know don't defang or declaw. If you will recall, the worlds alleged foremost snake handler was Thai and his hands were mangled knots from the neurotoxins of numerous bites. A king nailed him a few years back and that was the end of him. The people at the local snake farm handle these animals with due respect and try to take good care of them. Better care than I have seen from many amateur animal-as-a-toy keepers in the US. The people that run the snake farm could teach just about anybody a few tricks to handling hots.
While by no means perfect animal handlers, Thai's don't get into keeping hots and dangerous animals anywhere near what people in the US do. However, they do eat them. They also get entertainment watching the government handlers relocate the animals which is more and more common here and those handlers pride themselves with acting humanely as a rule. We also have a moratorium on keeping any wildlife outside of government designated facilities. Corrupt and often ignored, but running foul of a cop when you don't have a hefty bribe handy keeps people on the straight and narrow quite often.


I would mention the major difference in policing between here and the US. The cops here are non confrontational and not trained in forcible restraint. Make too big an ass of yourself their normal method of detaining is down the barrel of a side arm. A wrongful death lawsuit here make take several years to wind through the courts and the penalty is rarely more than $500 fine.

 

[Ripa]

Can't speak for all Thai's but the select group of animal keepers I know don't defang or declaw. If you will recall, the worlds alleged foremost snake handler was Thai and his hands were mangled knots from the neurotoxins of numerous bites. A king nailed him a few years back and that was the end of him. The people at the local snake farm handle these animals with due respect and try to take good care of them. Better care than I have seen from many amateur animal-as-a-toy keepers in the US. The people that run the snake farm could teach just about anybody a few tricks to handling hots.
While by no means perfect animal handlers, Thai's don't get into keeping hots and dangerous animals anywhere near what people in the US do. However, they do eat them. They also get entertainment watching the government handlers relocate the animals which is more and more common here and those handlers pride themselves with acting humanely as a rule. We also have a moratorium on keeping any wildlife outside of government designated facilities. Corrupt and often ignored, but running foul of a cop when you don't have a hefty bribe handy keeps people on the straight and narrow quite often.


I would mention the major difference in policing between here and the US. The cops here are non confrontational and not trained in forcible restraint. Make too big an ass of yourself their normal method of detaining is down the barrel of a side arm. A wrongful death lawsuit here make take several years to wind through the courts and the penalty is rarely more than $500 fine.

Funnily enough, I have no qualms against eating animals like these, so long as they killed in an efficient manner. I just hate when they're altered and forced to live out there lives miserably and stressed. And yea, there were a few videos on YouTube of some guy in the US who placed the label "friendly" on an eastern diamondback, handling the animal and whatnot while its rattling throughout the duration of the video, but then in the description, makes mention of how the snake is "venomoid".... Not sure how good of an influence this is on aspiring enthusiasts.

 

[The Snark]

Not intending to bash Americans once more but, very generally speaking, the average American public acts like arrogant teenagers. This is well reflected in how they keep their animals and why the US has so much over reaction as reflected in it's animal laws.
I think the number of non military guns owned in America, 1 for every person as of 2009, gives a good example of that immature irresponsible mentality. Act like idiots, expect idiotic laws.