Parasitic Treatments - A Discussion

[CynthiasCreatures]

I am relatively new to the world of arachnids, but I've spent years in the exotic vet community.
One of the major things I noticed is the lack of knowledge on arachnids in the exotic vet community.
Some vets or their staff even refuse to see inverts due to their lack of knowledge or even fear of the animal.

I noticed (please feel free to correct me if I am wrong), that some tarantulas develop issues with internal parasites or parasites surrounding the fangs causing the animal to be unable to eat and cause other fatal problems.
A common medication used in mammals, avian, and reptiles, to kill parasites is Panacur.

I do not recommend anyone attempting this based on this post, but theoretically, could I inject a cricket with Panacur and have the tarantula eat it? (given it is internal parasites)
Or, rub the fangs of the tarantula with Panacur on a Q-tip to kill the surrounding nematodes?

Has anyone have experience treating inverts of arachnids with any type of worming medication?

 

[l4nsky]

I've never had a nematode issue nor have I had to treat for one, but I don't think Panacur would work. I don't have the same knowledge of the medication as you and its method of effect, but I don't think treating an invert with a medication designed to kill inverts would turn out too well.

 

[Smotzer]

I think this issue of parasites, is dramatically blown out of proportions, its on the rare side, and it really only occurs in WC populations and this hobby, in the serious side of the hobby, not the big-box chain side, has come great lengths in dealing with captive bred populations for a greater percentage. And Im not sure I have seriously heard of actual parasitizing lifeforms in captive bred populations.

I dont disagree thhat the vet community knows very little, but in general everyone knows very little on this subject, but thhese medications deal primarily for the treatment of parasitic stomach worms and also nematodes (roundworms) for sister chemicals theres quite a few of these ending in -azole that work on similiarly, but it works on invertebrate life as @l4nsky brought up. they are basically a type of pesticide classified as a vermicide. Chemicals also ending with the suffix- azole are typical anti fungal medications as well, I have used quite a few of thhem over the years for plant diseases, as well as some human medications. I would be very weary of trying this.

 

[viper69]

There's no way I would use Panacur on an invert without an expert telling me it's been done, safe etc, on the species in question.

 

[Westicles]

I'm a CVT, and very familiar with Panacur. Unless an expert out there knows otherwise, no way I'd use it on an invertebrate. Besides, why give it without having a fecal exam performed? People are quick to pass out dewormers like candy without even truly knowing why they do it.

 

[Vermis]

they are basically a type of pesticide classified as a vermicide.

 

[spideyspinneret78]

Definitely don't ever use Panacur on an invert. The reason that many dewormers are safe for vertebrates is that they cannot pass through the blood/ brain barrier. They'll easily paralyze and kill tarantulas, insects, and other inverts.

 

[DaveM]

@CynthiasCreatures, I'm applauding your good intentions.

@Smotzer is right that parasitism by nematodes is an exceedingly rare problem for tarantula keepers, but I did a bit of investigation to check out your drug. I found out @spideyspinneret78 is right that Panacur (fenbendazole) doesn't penetrate the vertebrate blood-brain barrier (BBB) very well. In fact, some related drugs (e.g. mebendazole) needed to be developed that could better penetrate the BBB in order to treat helminthic parasitism of the vertebrate brain.

The mechanism of action is that the drug disrupts microtuble assembly. Microtubules form a component of the cytoskeleton and are important in very many cell types (especially in neurons, fibroblasts, malignant tumor cells, and sperm cells), to give the cells structure, for cell motility, and for intracellular transport (sort of like a network of railroad tracks aids transport within a country). Fenbendazole stops microtubule assembly by binding to the beta-tubulin protein. It's reported to bind nematode beta-tubulin with 25x-400x as much affinity/strength as it binds vertebrate beta-tubulin. The difference in effect, the reason it's so much more toxic in nematodes (besides vertebrate BBBs) is going to be due to the differences in structure between the nematode and vertebrate beta-tubulin proteins. So I wondered about spider beta-tubulin, how similar is it to vertebrate and nematode beta-tubulin? Let's check.



I looked up the protein sequences of beta-tubulin from several representative species and made a phylogenetic tree, which shows how closely related the beta-tubulin proteins are in these different species. Vertebrate beta-tubulins (green) are all very similar to each other. Invertebrate beta-tubulins (red) from nematode and spider are quite far from the vertebrates [and from each other]. SO, I agree with all of my comrades that it really wouldn't be safe to try this on a spider.
Still, thank you, and I hope you keep coming up with fresh ideas to discuss here.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

Or, rub the fangs of the tarantula with Panacur on a Q-tip to kill the surrounding nematodes?

The problem with parasitic nematodes is that they generally find their way into the tarantula via the anus or book lungs (as far as I'm aware they can't enter the tarantula via the mouth) and then work their way through the body from there so by the time you notice them spilling out of the mouthparts the tarantula is usually on Death's door anyway.

 

[CynthiasCreatures]

I truly appreciate everyone's incite, provided information, and research.
From the provided information I agree Panacur would be a possible trip to death's door for an invert.
It would be interesting to further research other medications that could be safe on an invert, or even something natural.
I would definitely take the time to research it prior to throwing any new ideas I have into the group haha.

And as mentioned, I do not recommend anyone experimenting with their Ts and medications based on this post, it was just a basis for discussion and brainstorming since even rare, I am sure pet owners dealing with parasitic infections in their T's would like more options to help their 8-legged friend.

 

[spideyspinneret78]

I truly appreciate everyone's incite, provided information, and research.
From the provided information I agree Panacur would be a possible trip to death's door for an invert.
It would be interesting to further research other medications that could be safe on an invert, or even something natural.
I would definitely take the time to research it prior to throwing any new ideas I have into the group haha.

And as mentioned, I do not recommend anyone experimenting with their Ts and medications based on this post, it was just a basis for discussion and brainstorming since even rare, I am sure pet owners dealing with parasitic infections in their T's would like more options to help their 8-legged friend.

I agree, it's something that definitely needs to be researched more. It's amazing how much there is that we still don't know about these animals.

 

[Edan bandoot]

I think it's possible that a medication will be created one day if there is enough money in harvesting tarantula venom for medicinal purposes. Currently i think it would be hard to get funding for something like this.

 

[ArthropodLegs]

"I looked up the protein sequences of beta-tubulin from several representative species and made a phylogenetic tree, which shows how closely related the beta-tubulin proteins are in these different species. Vertebrate beta-tubulins (green) are all very similar to each other. Invertebrate beta-tubulins (red) from nematode and spider are quite far from the vertebrates [and from each other]. SO, I agree with all of my comrades that it really wouldn't be safe to try this on a spider.
Still, thank you, and I hope you keep coming up with fresh ideas to discuss here."
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for looking up the sequences @DaveM ! I'm not as used to looking at unrooted trees, and I guess C elegans and P tep form a node, but they are pretty distant, as you said. Maybe distant enough that Panacur wouldn't bind spider tubulin?

I'm kind of hoping that's the case, because I started a colony of Oxidus gracilis millipedes, and I found several dead from nematodes *cry* So now I'm wondering how to rid my precious millipedes of nematodes! I guess I could wait until they make some embryo clutches (there are lots of mating pairs!), and remove the embryos to a new clean container as soon as I find them, and then hopefully the hatchlings will be nematode free? Hmm, I should prob also autoclave their substrate before adding my clean bebes.

Any advice on getting rid of nematodes in millipedes appreciated!

 

[Edan bandoot]

I'm kind of hoping that's the case, because I started a colony of Oxidus gracilis millipedes, and I found several dead from nematodes *cry* So now I'm wondering how to rid my precious millipedes of nematodes! I guess I could wait until they make some embryo clutches (there are lots of mating pairs!), and remove the embryos to a new clean container as soon as I find them, and then hopefully the hatchlings will be nematode free? Hmm, I should prob also autoclave their substrate before adding my clean bebes.

Any advice on getting rid of nematodes in millipedes appreciated!

Quarantine and start a new colony, I'd suggest collecting new specimens, it's usually always fatal.

 

[JPG]

There was a person from last year reporting an experiment using something to treating parasite infection and has been successful, I wish I could find that thread..

Edit: Nevermind, search function ftw!
Here's a link for the thread. Nematode cure | Arachnoboards

 

[DaveM]

I'm not as used to looking at unrooted trees, and I guess C elegans and P tep form a node, but they are pretty distant, as you said. Maybe distant enough that Panacur wouldn't bind spider tubulin?

Happy to meet a colleague! Pardon my laziness. Cnidarians, being a sister group to bilaterians -- we could use one of them as an outgroup to root the tree, nice to be working with proteins so well-conserved as tubulins.
Have you tried AlphaFold 2.0 -- really amazing, disruptive technology! We could generate structures and use molecular docking simulations to answer this question more rigorously.
Since fenbendazole does bind vertebrate beta-tubulin, albeit with lower affinity, we will likely be playing a game of which invertebrate can better tolerate the poison. How many millipedes can you afford to spare for testing? Isn't it wonderful, outside of vertebrate research, that IACUC won't bother us for any creatures "lower" than cephalopods!

Hmm, I should prob also autoclave their substrate before adding my clean bebes.

Millipedes aren't my forté, but is this one of the species in which the mother forms protective cases around her eggs with her own excrement? Since the nematodes are alimentary, you might have some additional work to do.
I wonder whether there's a differential heat tolerance that could be helpful, and surely the eggs would be more resistant to desiccation.

 

[ArthropodLegs]

Happy to meet a colleague! Pardon my laziness. Cnidarians, being a sister group to bilaterians -- we could use one of them as an outgroup to root the tree, nice to be working with proteins so well-conserved as tubulins.
Have you tried AlphaFold 2.0 -- really amazing, disruptive technology! We could generate structures and use molecular docking simulations to answer this question more rigorously.
Since fenbendazole does bind vertebrate beta-tubulin, albeit with lower affinity, we will likely be playing a game of which invertebrate can better tolerate the poison. How many millipedes can you afford to spare for testing? Isn't it wonderful, outside of vertebrate research, that IACUC won't bother us for any creatures "lower" than cephalopods!



Millipedes aren't my forté, but is this one of the species in which the mother forms protective cases around her eggs with her own excrement? Since the nematodes are alimentary, you might have some additional work to do.
I wonder whether there's a differential heat tolerance that could be helpful, and surely the eggs would be more resistant to desiccation.

Hi science friend!

What I’m thinking for cleaning the embryos is to put them in 5 or 10% household bleach for a few minutes then rinse really well. I work in an arthropod evo devo lab, and the butterfly people do this routinely to remove bad things from the surface of embryos. Bleach is fine for arthropod embryos, we put them in 50% bleach when removing the chorion (outer eggshell) for dissections. They would live if they didn’t dessicate without their chorion Hopefully that helps you or someone some day!

Yes so nice to not have to worry about IRB approval! I still try to give my invert friends a generally happy life though

 

[ArthropodLegs]

There was a person from last year reporting an experiment using something to treating parasite infection and has been successful, I wish I could find that thread..

Edit: Nevermind, search function ftw!
Here's a link for the thread. Nematode cure | Arachnoboards

I’ll try this method! Thanks for the tip!

 

[ArthropodLegs]

Quarantine and start a new colony, I'd suggest collecting new specimens, it's usually always fatal.

i transferred four mating pairs to individual containers that I bleached and rinsed, then added substrate and decayed leaves that I had autoclaved. Maybe that will reduce their parasite load or something and they’ll pull through. I’m worried that maybe all wild adults have nematodes, maybe that’s why they don’t live very long?

I’ll figure out a way to anesthetize them so I can look at them at high mag on the microscope without them moving around. There was a paper from Pearsons that said their spiracles had a lot of nematodes, I’llcheck there, and also their mouth and butt. not sure how else to check their gut without hurting them?

 

[MrGhostMantis]

i transferred four mating pairs to individual containers that I bleached and rinsed, then added substrate and decayed leaves that I had autoclaved. Maybe that will reduce their parasite load or something and they’ll pull through. I’m worried that maybe all wild adults have nematodes, maybe that’s why they don’t live very long?

I’ll figure out a way to anesthetize them so I can look at them at high mag on the microscope without them moving around. There was a paper from Pearsons that said their spiracles had a lot of nematodes, I’llcheck there, and also their mouth and butt. not sure how else to check their gut without hurting them?

You can use CO2 to knock em out for a bit.