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0.1 Pamphobeteus ultramarinus 3.75"
Genus Pamphobeteus
- Thread starter MrDeranged
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Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos) adult female
Pamphobeteus spec "Esmeraldas" Pairing
Pamphobeteus spec "Red" juvenile female
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Very nice pics! I've always wondered if the "Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos)" are P. grandis as the Iquitos region is where P. grandis is found. Also, the "Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos)" mature males have the fuchsia look to their femurs different from the steely blue in P. antinous found in south-east Peru.
Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos) adult female
Pamphobeteus spec "Esmeraldas" Pairing
Pamphobeteus spec "Red" juvenile female
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Do you mean that "Iquitos várzea" is the "region" just around Iquitos?
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Not sure about that particular region, but in general, I noticed since 1999 imports from Peru had the below specimens of Pamphobeteus spp.:
Collected in NE Peru/ Iquitos region 1999-2004: Labeled by exporters as "Pamphobeteus antinous", BUT mature males have fuchsia femurs and the species is very "leggy" and extremely skittish and defensive. Are these Pamphobeteus grandis?
Collected from central-eastern Peru near Tarapoto to Pucallpa 2004 to present day: Labeled by exporters as "Pamphobeteus antinous", this species is stockier than the above referenced species, not has skittish/defensive and mature males have black femurs and/or lighter fuchsia coloration. These have been sold as "Pamphobeteus sp. "Peruvian Big Black" by USA and European sellers.
Collected from south-eastern Peru/Made de Dios region: Labeled by exporters as "Pamphobeteus antinous", these are the real P. antinous. Very stocky with mature males having steely blue femurs.
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1) There is no proper report of P. grandis near by Iquitos. The nearest finding is the PT male (Bertani et al. 2008) behind the border, distance around 300 km.
2) What FRITZ named as "Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos)" are just another pet trade "antinous", that differs from P. antinous by the thickend femur. But the males was bluish.
The german importer named only Iquitos as origin. So we named it not only P. antinous.
3) The Madre de Dios region is not automatical a guarantee for a "real" P. antinous. In these region are also different species.
4) My opinion on a picture of your "maybe - grandis"
2) What FRITZ named as "Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos)" are just another pet trade "antinous", that differs from P. antinous by the thickend femur. But the males was bluish.
The german importer named only Iquitos as origin. So we named it not only P. antinous.
3) The Madre de Dios region is not automatical a guarantee for a "real" P. antinous. In these region are also different species.
4) My opinion on a picture of your "maybe - grandis"
Pamphobeteus_cf_antinous_Peru(MM)1.jpg
Pamphobeteus cf. antinous (Peru), mature male..possibly P. grandis?
arachnoboards.com
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Thank you for this info. I see the term "pet trade 'antinous' " used a lot recently. What is the difference in that vs. "cf. antinous"?1) There is no proper report of P. grandis near by Iquitos. The nearest finding is the PT male (Bertani et al. 2008) behind the border, distance around 300 km.
2) What FRITZ named as "Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos)" are just another pet trade "antinous", that differs from P. antinous by the thickend femur. But the males was bluish.
The german importer named only Iquitos as origin. So we named it not only P. antinous.
3) The Madre de Dios region is not automatical a guarantee for a "real" P. antinous. In these region are also different species.
4) My opinion on a picture of your "maybe - grandis"
Pamphobeteus_cf_antinous_Peru(MM)1.jpg
Pamphobeteus cf. antinous (Peru), mature male..possibly P. grandis?arachnoboards.com
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Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos) adult male
One thing is certain: Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos) cannot be bred with Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Big Black). The females respond to the males but copulation never occurs.
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Yes! That's the one that used to be exported from Peru to the USA 1999-2004 (Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos). After 2004, USA hobby just gets the Tarapoto/Pullcapa P. sp. "antinous" (Big Black).
Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos) adult male
One thing is certain: Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Iquitos) cannot be bred with Pamphobeteus spec antinous (Big Black). The females respond to the males but copulation never occurs.
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Why don't you know the species/locality/morph from the seller you bought it from?
Bought as P. sp insignis (Ecuador) but I'm not sure what that means really.
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It means that it's Pamphobeteus sp. insignis from Ecuador. Not the true insignis from Columbia.
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So, it is not a "Pamphobeteus or something"....It's VERY important to keep that name "Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador)" labeled on it's enclosure so it is NOT mixed up with the real P. insignis (Colombia). I expect this "Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador)" to be identified to species level finally with the batch of newly-described Pamphobeteus species from Ecuador. This "Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador)" has an association with a Pamphobeteus from Ecuador produced from Thomas Vinmann in the late 1990s breed in Germany. For now, that is all we know and that should be on your label for it's enclosure. "Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador)" {'90s Thomas Vinmann bloodline).
1) I'm not going to breed this spider. I don't have the space or inclination for breeding and I wouldn't breed any undescribed Pamphobetus species out even if I did. This spider is a Purple Bloom, which is good enough for my enclosure label. (Except that I have four spiders total, so it's not hard to keep them straight without labels.)
2) You say that is all we know, but how do we know this? How likely is it that an undescribed species imported from Ecuador and originally mislabeled with a Columbian species name hasn't already been significantly hybridized as it's been bred dozens of times over the last 25 years. How can I trace my specimen back to the late 90's Vinmann breeding project? Daniella Sherwood has recently (2022 and 2023) described 5 new Pamphobetus species from Ecuador. How do I know my specimen isn't one of those? Strikes me that even if these spiders end up being described in scientific literature, no breeder is going to hire a taxonomist or do genetic analysis to determine whether their specimens are a match are they?
Further wrinkles. The exuvia is of a 3" DLS juvenile. I was able to fairly easily sex it as (unfortunately) female (I was hoping for a brightly colored male) with a microscope, but this spermatheca is rounded, without the typical "horns" that exist on every species of Pamphobetus. I'm not sure if this is because the specimen is juvenile or because it's not a Pampho and is instead another Ecuadoran genus, like Megaphobena (which does have rounded spermatheca.)
(Sorry about image quality, this is a photo of the microscope screen.) Looking at it now it does look like there are "shadows" of horns beneath the surface and maybe as the spider matures, the surrounding tissue will slough away.
(Sorry about image quality, this is a photo of the microscope screen.) Looking at it now it does look like there are "shadows" of horns beneath the surface and maybe as the spider matures, the surrounding tissue will slough away.
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I'm thinking your point 1 contradicts point 2 above. Don't refer to your tarantula as a "Pamphobeteus or something" OR a "Purple Bloom" as IF you trade or sell it, and I've heard of these happening 10x this past year, the next hobbyist gets on AB and says something like "I got a Pamphobeteus sp. "Purple Bloom" and wants us to help them ID it. So, YES, make a label that says "Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador)" and if you trade/sell it, make sure the hobbyist acquiring it keeps that label/name. In general, don't use common names. For undescribed species, use the "cf." "sp." and any locality info known.
For point 1 above, you can breed it to another Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador) ONLY.
As for point 2, we don't know anything 100% and I'm sure some hobby hybrids may have occurred, but several German Pamphobeteus and Xenesthis breeders have said they may mate, but no fertile sac happens, but just don't mate anything that is not confirmed to be the same species or at least locality of a species we are consistently calling it like the "Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador) vs. the real Pamphobteus insignis from Colombia. Several sellers this year dropped off the "Ecuador" and "sp." part and started selling falsely your spider as the real P. insignis (Colombia) to make some extra $$$. I fault the sellers vs. hobbyists like yourself, because the hobbyists are buying it from the sellers doing it 'deliberately'. This was caught on morph market recently and corrected, but is still happening sometimes here on AB. You can clearly see their pic of a spiderling with an orange abdomen and Xmas tree pattern that they are trying to sell it off as "Pamphobeteus insignis", but they are wrong, that color and pattern in the spiderling is an Ecuadorian Pampnhobeteus and it should be labeled "Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador) instead. Some of those sellers don't care about details and gets things mixed up and a few know exactly what they are doing and are doing it deliberately. It's wrong.
The real Pamphobeteus insignis from Colombia is rarely made available for the U.S. hobby and very rarely breed in the USA and therefore, sells for a much higher price tag. Spiderlings of the REAL Pamphobeteus insignis from Colombia don't have an orange abdomen or Xmas tree pattern on the abdomen. It's very, very obvious.
As for D. Sherwood's newly described Ecuadorian Pamphobeteus, that's awesome!, but it will be difficult to match up what's in the hobby to those new species. I have a few *guesses*, but I'll keep that to myself for now. Hopefully, we will know. I believe the Thomas Vinmann "Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador) will match to one of Sherwood's newly described Ecuadorian Pamphobeteus so breeders/sellers will stop using the invalid name.
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Who decides this terminology? How is the information promulgated through the hobby? It seems unofficial; afaik, sp. isn't used this way in scientific literature. I'm just curious how this kind of thing is enforced and tracked and who is keeping track of it. If a breeder imports a pair of spiders from Ecuador, how do they know they're the same species? There are at least half a dozen Pamphobetus species from Ecuador. Without a type description or at least a more specific geographic descriptor than "Ecuador", there's no obvious way to do taxonomy.
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What are you proposing then, just lump all Pamphobeteus species from Ecuador under your general label of "Purple Bloom"? That is not the solution here. Keep the name that it was sold under = Pamphobeteus sp. "insignis" (Ecuador) until somebody in the taxonomy world updates us. Your insistence in removing the name and replacing it with Pamphobeteus something or another is why every year we get somebody putting up a pic of "Pamphobeteus sp. "Purple" asking us to ID it. Why are you so insistent in removing the name it was sold under and overly generalization it down to a "purple bloom"??? WTH?
What you are saying? Take all the species below and just lump them together and call them "Pamphobeteus sp. "Purple Bloom"?
Ecuador -
Pamphobeteus spec Platyomma
Pamphobeteus spec Machala
Pamphobeteus spec Duran
Pamphobeteus spec Magna
Pamphobeteus spec Manabi
Pamphobeteus spec Santo Domingo (small)
Pamphobeteus spec Goliath
Pamphobeteus spec Vespertinus
Pamphobeteus spec nigricolor
Pamphobeteus spec Tigris
Pamphobeteus spec Esmeraldas
Pamphobeteus spec Costa
Pamphobeteus spec Cascada
Pamphobeteus spec Flammifera
Pamphobeteus spec Mascara
Pamphobeteus Orientalis
Pamphobeteus spec ‘North Ecuador’
Pamphobeteus spec South Ecuador II
Pamphobeteus spec Volcano
Peru -
Pamphobeteus cf Antinous (Big Black)
Pamphobeteus cf Antinous (Purple Earth)
Pamphobeteus cf Antinous (Lightning Blue)
Pamphobeteus cf Antinous (Iquitos)
Pamphobeteus cf Rio Urubamba
Pamphobeteus cf Rio Itaya
Pamphobeteus cf Pucallpa
Pamphobeteus cf Arana Polita
Pamphobeteus spec Wuschig
Pamphobeteus spec Petersi
Pamphobeteus spec Huallaga
Pamphobeteus spec Selva
Pamphobeteus spec ‘SJ’
Colombia -
Pamphobeteus spec Solaris
Pamphobeteus spec Cupreus
Pamphobeteus affinis nigricolor II
Pamphobeteus Ornatus (Rio Dagua - Panama)
Pamphobeteus spec Antioquia
Pamphobeteus spec Aquatica
Pamphobeteus spec Borealis
Pamphobeteus spec Caldas
Pamphobeteus spec Conani
Pamphobeteus spec Hexa
Pamphobeteus spec Montana
Pamphobeteus spec Paisa
Pamphobeteus spec Penta
Pamphobeteus spec ‘Q’
Pamphobeteus spec ‘SF’
Pamphobeteus spec Ultima
Anybody else got an issue with this kind of logic???
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I don't know. It would be nice to have a clearinghouse for breeders and importers to publish the sources for their animals. That way it could be tracked in some systematic way. Probably the right thing to do is stop buying and selling undescribed species, but I'm just as guilty as anyone else. Or we could just accept that hybridization is going to occur in the pet trade. Afaik there are very few if any breeding programs for wild re-introduction, so some domestic divergence probably won't have much ecological impact. And the pet trade could probably benefit from the expanded gene pool anyway.
Again though, I'm not planning to breed this specimen, and am not planning to trade it away. If I do, I'll label it with the same name I was sold it under. But, like, when I tell people about the spider I'm not going to say "And this one is a Pamphobetus species insignis of the Ecuadoran variety, and not the same species as the Columbian P. insignis." I'm just gonna say "This one is an Ecuadoran Purple Bloom."
Again though, I'm not planning to breed this specimen, and am not planning to trade it away. If I do, I'll label it with the same name I was sold it under. But, like, when I tell people about the spider I'm not going to say "And this one is a Pamphobetus species insignis of the Ecuadoran variety, and not the same species as the Columbian P. insignis." I'm just gonna say "This one is an Ecuadoran Purple Bloom."