p. metallica + small dog = death?

[Elyse]

Hello,

Does anyone know or think a p. metallica could kill a small dog (7 - 13lb) ?? Or mortally wound a small dog?

I wouldn't want to get a p. metallica if there's a chance that it could escape and one of my dogs found it before I did...

 

[thecage]

The only tarantula that i know of that has had a study done on venom effects on K9s is Phlogius crassipes and they say bites on a dog of this spider was 100% fatal. Here is a link http://ecopathsim.blogspot.com/2009/05/australian-tarantula-invasion.html


I know it is not much help just saying it could very well have the venom to kill a dog.

---------- Post added 09-27-2013 at 01:30 AM ----------

The only tarantula that i know of that has had a study done on venom effects on K9s is Phlogius crassipes and they say bites on a dog of this spider was 100% fatal. Here is a link http://ecopathsim.blogspot.com/2009/05/australian-tarantula-invasion.html


I know it is not much help just saying it could very well have the venom to kill a dog.

 

[Kazaam]

That's like saying 'I don't want to swim because there's a chance that I'll be attacked by a shark and then struck by lighting while trying to escape' the chance that something like that happens is near zero.

I wouldn't worry about the dog part, what I'd worry about is if YOU can handle them.

How much experience do you have with tarantulas? does that include old worlds? and arboreals? Do you have any experience with teleporters?

 

[Poec54]

The bite of any of the OW species with stronger venoms can pose a serious threat to cats and dogs. Read the bites reports; you'll see what happens to people that are 10 to 20+ times larger than your dog. If escapes are a concern to you, then please don't get those species. You can have a nice spider collection without them, but certainly don't want to risk losing a dog.

 

[McGuiverstein]

With my feelings about most small dogs (except dachshunds), I would probably buy the spider in the hopes that it would escape . I'm sorry, that's really not helpful.

Though OW venom is much stronger than NW venom and has serious effects on humans, that does not necessarily mean it will kill the dog. I have two things to back this up, though I am entirely too lazy to look up the supporting info (though it is right here on AB). First, I recall reading a LD50 study that was performed on mice using a with a variety of theraphosids. The results were very interesting, as G. rosea and some other NWs' venom ranked in the top, while others, like P. murinus and some OW spiders were much further down the list. Tarantula venom is a cocktail of toxins that have been adapted over time to target the primary predators of a particular species in the wild. Therefore, spiders such as G. rosea and others that dwell in burrows or crevices that mice or other rodents would enter would have venom more suited to incapacitate or kill those types of predators. What I'm saying is that although many OWs' toxins have severe effects on humans, that does not necessarily mean it would be as serious to a canine, as the toxins that strongly affect us may not be as much of a problem to them. The opposite is also true though, so is it really worth the risk if you're not capable of caring for a very fast and agile spider? Your experience and comfort level is something you will need to judge for yourself.

The second is a report about a person's cat being bitten by a (if I remember correctly) ~5" female P. murinus. It's been forever since I read it, and I don't recall what if any care was given to the cat by the owner, but the cat survived. It was very sick, lethargic, threw up several times, and if I remember correctly the owner described it as very out of it, but the animal made it. Yes, a cat differs from a dog, but its body mass is probably around that of a small dog. However, this is just anecdotal evidence that a P. murinus bite may not necessarily kill a cat. Really the only thing that's similar between the two is the body mass of the cat and your dog. The venom type, amount injected, size of the spider, size, age and overall health of the dog are all variables that could change the outcome. Like I said before, it's up to you whether or not you feel capable of handling the spider.

I apologize in advance if anyone has seen any information/bite records involving dogs that I may have missed.

 

[Elyse]

Thanks thecage, Kazaam, Poec54, McGuiverstein for your help!
I'll wait a couple years before I get my dream tarantula =) If at all. I don't want to jump into deep water...I could likely handle it...but I don't want to risk it...even myself getting bitten. If it bit me, I'd probably instantly die of a heart attack even before the venom kicks in. =S

Awww...they're such an amazing tarantula...

=)

 

[Poec54]

Though OW venom is much stronger than NW venom and has serious effects on humans, that does not necessarily mean it will kill the dog. I have two things to back this up, though I am entirely too lazy to look up the supporting info (though it is right here on AB). First, I recall reading a LD50 study that was performed on mice using a with a variety of theraphosids. The results were very interesting, as G. rosea and some other NWs' venom ranked in the top, while others, like P. murinus and some OW spiders were much further down the list. Tarantula venom is a cocktail of toxins that have been adapted over time to target the primary predators of a particular species in the wild. Therefore, spiders such as G. rosea and others that dwell in burrows or crevices that mice or other rodents would enter would have venom more suited to incapacitate or kill those types of predators.

True, animals venoms tend to be far more complex than they need to be, such as snake venoms which can contain 40 or 50 proteins, the function of most of which is still not understood. It's been compared to a grenade going off inside your body. But with tarantulas and LD/50's it's not so straightforward. LD's are a black and white, live or die number, and don't include unpleasant symptoms and side-effects. NW's are far more likley to rely on their urticating hairs than biting, especially when defending themselves against small mammals. Biting is typically a last resort, a 'when all else fails' behavior, not 'Plan A.'

OW's venom's have more of an impact on humans, but that's not why they evolved them. It's having those same effects, or worse, on some other animals. To divert limited resources to produce those venoms means that they must be effective in discouraging or mortally injuring some of their primary predators, whatever they may be, and are likely to include a fair share of local mammals. They've had thousands of years to fine tune them to work on the animals that like to eat large spiders. Looking at mice alone doesn't necessarily give the full picture; those OW venoms are ruining something's day, or otherwise over time they'd have evolved the same kind of venoms as NW's have. There's a reason why those OW venoms do what they do, and it's been maintained in many species, so there's a beneficial trade off that's kept it going. As with snakes, it's likely that tarantula venoms also have a tremendous amount of variation between species, each carefully evolved to accomplish the goals of self-defense and subduing prey for that species' specific niche. If OW venoms aren't having the expected impact on domestic mice, it might on other rodents, shrews, mongeese, birds, small monkeys, etc. There is a big difference in the effects on a human in the bite of a P murinus vs G rosea. We need to look at what P murinus is encountering in the wild in self-defense and what small animals it's eating, before we can say it's venom is 'weaker.' I'd bet it's venom is very effective at what it needs to accomplish.

 

[goodoldneon]

That's like saying 'I don't want to swim because there's a chance that I'll be attacked by a shark and then struck by lighting while trying to escape' the chance that something like that happens is near zero.

I wouldn't worry about the dog part, what I'd worry about is if YOU can handle them.

How much experience do you have with tarantulas? does that include old worlds? and arboreals? Do you have any experience with teleporters?

It's a legitimate concern. If my cat were to knock over my H. mac's enclosure, thereby freeing her, there's a better than decent chance that she would find and/or confront it before yours truly. She usually locates escaped crickets long before I do.

 

[Kazaam]

If my cat were to knock over my H. mac's enclosure, thereby freeing her

Then I'd get better enclosures if I were you, they shouldn't be able to get out if you simply knock the enclosure over.

Crickets are not tarantulas, crickets are dumb enough to drown in their own excrement.

 

[Poec54]

If my cat were to knock over my H. mac's enclosure, thereby freeing her, there's a better than decent chance that she would find and/or confront it before yours truly. She usually locates escaped crickets long before I do.

+1. My cats and dogs find any insect or spider that manages to get into the house, regardless of how small. They pick up on the slightest sound and movement. It's pure chance that I've happened to find a few of them first. If a tarantula is loose in your house, your cats and dogs will know about before you do, and will be confronting/antagonizing it. They're the 'first line of defense' and the ones most likely to get bit.

 

[McGuiverstein]

True, animals venoms tend to be far more complex than they need to be, such as snake venoms which can contain 40 or 50 proteins, the function of most of which is still not understood. It's been compared to a grenade going off inside your body. But with tarantulas and LD/50's it's not so straightforward. LD's are a black and white, live or die number, and don't include unpleasant symptoms and side-effects. NW's are far more likley to rely on their urticating hairs than biting, especially when defending themselves against small mammals. Biting is typically a last resort, a 'when all else fails' behavior, not 'Plan A.'

OW's venom's have more of an impact on humans, but that's not why they evolved them. It's having those same effects, or worse, on some other animals. To divert limited resources to produce those venoms means that they must be effective in discouraging or mortally injuring some of their primary predators, whatever they may be, and are likely to include a fair share of local mammals. They've had thousands of years to fine tune them to work on the animals that like to eat large spiders. Looking at mice alone doesn't necessarily give the full picture; those OW venoms are ruining something's day, or otherwise over time they'd have evolved the same kind of venoms as NW's have. There's a reason why those OW venoms do what they do, and it's been maintained in many species, so there's a beneficial trade off that's kept it going. As with snakes, it's likely that tarantula venoms also have a tremendous amount of variation between species, each carefully evolved to accomplish the goals of self-defense and subduing prey for that species' specific niche. If OW venoms aren't having the expected impact on domestic mice, it might on other rodents, shrews, mongeese, birds, small monkeys, etc. There is a big difference in the effects on a human in the bite of a P murinus vs G rosea. We need to look at what P murinus is encountering in the wild in self-defense and what small animals it's eating, before we can say it's venom is 'weaker.' I'd bet it's venom is very effective at what it needs to accomplish.

With regard to your first point, I am in agreement that biting is a last resort. NW spiders have their hairs, while OWs have their speed and agility. I was just addressing the possibility of a bite occuring, as that is what she was concerned about, and is likely what would happen with the, for lack of a nicer word.. persistance of small dogs.

Definitely agree with you that LDs are black and white, both with their results, and their scope. Like you said, the only animals tested were mice, which doesn't really provide any useful information on how another animal would react. I was only using that study to show that just because humans have a serious reaction to OW venom doesn't necessarily mean dogs or other domestic animals would. Essentially, I was saying the same thing you said in your second paragraph, I just may not have worded it as clearly as you did.

 

[captmarga]

Not to start any arguements, but I'd be more worried about the escape of an expensive spider than it actually biting a dog. If it bit the dog, chances are the dog is also going to kill the spider. Your score now, out one high-dollar spider and one sick-if-not-dead dog. Solution - put spiders in a room where dog isn't allowed. Have cages such that escape isn't easy. Have experience in working with the quick and the fast first and understand how EACH INDIVIDUAL might react (I say this because I have a P irminia that is gentle). Read reports, get experience. Then make your own decision.

Good luck.

Marga

 

[Arachtion]

True, animals venoms tend to be far more complex than they need to be, such as snake venoms which can contain 40 or 50 proteins, the function of most of which is still not understood. It's been compared to a grenade going off inside your body. But with tarantulas and LD/50's it's not so straightforward. LD's are a black and white, live or die number, and don't include unpleasant symptoms and side-effects. NW's are far more likley to rely on their urticating hairs than biting, especially when defending themselves against small mammals. Biting is typically a last resort, a 'when all else fails' behavior, not 'Plan A.'

OW's venom's have more of an impact on humans, but that's not why they evolved them. It's having those same effects, or worse, on some other animals. To divert limited resources to produce those venoms means that they must be effective in discouraging or mortally injuring some of their primary predators, whatever they may be, and are likely to include a fair share of local mammals. They've had thousands of years to fine tune them to work on the animals that like to eat large spiders. Looking at mice alone doesn't necessarily give the full picture; those OW venoms are ruining something's day, or otherwise over time they'd have evolved the same kind of venoms as NW's have. There's a reason why those OW venoms do what they do, and it's been maintained in many species, so there's a beneficial trade off that's kept it going. As with snakes, it's likely that tarantula venoms also have a tremendous amount of variation between species, each carefully evolved to accomplish the goals of self-defense and subduing prey for that species' specific niche. If OW venoms aren't having the expected impact on domestic mice, it might on other rodents, shrews, mongeese, birds, small monkeys, etc. There is a big difference in the effects on a human in the bite of a P murinus vs G rosea. We need to look at what P murinus is encountering in the wild in self-defense and what small animals it's eating, before we can say it's venom is 'weaker.' I'd bet it's venom is very effective at what it needs to accomplish.

I too had read the supposed LD50 of some spiders where certain species were notably higher than expected, what I wondered was whether the effects bite victims suffer could be dictated more so on the amount of enom delivered by a certain spider and and that maybe NW often gave weak or even dry bites as you know as well as I do, most NW take quite some provocation before delivering a defensive bite, and I think they may use the physical injury of a bite as a deterrent rather than the systemic effects of envenomation, where as the OW may deliver a super-hot-super-angry-full-force -fill-your-boots-up kind of a bite most if not every time, I mean im sure i read Atrax are a less evolved kind of spider which cannot even control the amount of venom it uses and thus delivers a full throttle mother trucker every time, I mean, I can't say I believe this is true of old world Ts but id say lacking the new fangled urticating/poop shooting/kicking lines of defense the new worlds have grown into maybe a defensive bite does almost always contain a healthy dose of venom

 

[Poec54]

Not to start any arguements, but I'd be more worried about the escape of an expensive spider than it actually biting a dog. If it bit the dog, chances are the dog is also going to kill the spider. Your score now, out one high-dollar spider and one sick-if-not-dead dog.

Obviously you don't own a dog if you think ANY tarantula could possibly be anywhere near as expensive. I have two German Shepherds, got them for a mere $850. Add to that neutering, annual vet visits and shots, & monthly heartworm and flea medication. Plus food, crates, chew toys, etc. We're in the thousands now. You could buy a very nice, and large, tarantula collection for that much money.

And if you have a closer bond with a spider than your dog, there's something very wrong.

 

[Kazaam]

And if you have a closer bond with a spider than your dog, there's something very wrong.

So that's what's wrong with me, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Poec54]

So that's what's wrong with me, thanks for clearing that up.

Man's best friend has 4 legs, not eight. A dog should be part of a family, more than a pet. You are part of their family. Who saved Timmy when he fell down the well? Was it Lassie or a Theraphosa stirmi?

 

[Arachtion]

Man's best friend has 4 legs, not eight. A dog should be part of a family, more than a pet. You are part of their family. Who saved Timmy when he fell down the well? Was it Lassie or a Theraphosa stirmi?

Saying that Poec my AF salmon pink is called lassie, and although she is damn well big enough to drag me (175lb) out of a well with a line of rescue webbing, I think if I asked her all I would get was a faceful of hairs... TBH out of all my pets, my best friend is probably my Burmese she's the only one that wants to sit on my lap and watch TV

 

[Poec54]

out of all my pets, my best friend is probably my Burmese she's the only one that wants to sit on my lap and watch TV

Your girlfriend should be in your lap, mate.

 

[Arachtion]

Your girlfriend should be in your lap, mate.

She's a BBW... Need I say more?!

 

[Kazaam]

Man's best friend has 4 legs, not eight. A dog should be part of a family, more than a pet. You are part of their family. Who saved Timmy when he fell down the well? Was it Lassie or a Theraphosa stirmi?

I'm not a fan of dogs, they're too smelly, noisy and sloppy.

Also I disagree, spiders are some of man's best friends, they protect us from many dangers such as diseased insects.
There's an adult female Araneus diadematus 'red form' in my fan that has caught multiple wasps and even hornets this summer which would otherwise bother me while I eat my lunch.