P.metallica communal

[son31]

what do you guys think about p.Metallicas from different sacks in the same enclosure? I've got 2, both are around 3.5-4 inches.

 

[theconmacieist]

I wouldn't think about it unless you are okay with losing a few hundo in spider. You can find everything you need to know about "communal" living by using the search function. The same thing gets talked about all the time and it's super easy to find. If you don't want to look for it somebody will probably come reiterate it to you.

From what I've read unless you are trying a communal with Holothele incei or Pamphobeteus sp chicken spider it ain't gonna work out in the long run. Other species are just tolerating each other until the day they don't.

 

[son31]

thanks!I'm definitely going to look it up

 

[theconmacieist]

It's good you're doing your research. They are wonderful spiders. While some people will keep them in groups you need to know the facts before you make your decision. Personally if there is any chance of something going wrong(and there is). Why not just house them separately. I guess I just don't get the whole communal craze. Good luck and welcome to the forums.

 

[Chris11]

I dont try communals, but id think youd need more than 2 to be halfway successful.... one will probably eat the other as soon as it gets the chance or its hungry enough. M. balfouri is another species documented as living communally successfully.

 

[Poec54]

Metallica has a reputation for being one of the Poecs more tolerant of each other, and at the same time, some metallica are serious cannibals. Do you want to find out which yours are? Can afford to lose one or both?

BTW, Poecilotheria are not communal. There's some tolerance for sharing retreats in the wild for various lengths of time. It's very different being forced to live together in captivity where there is no escape when tempers escalate over food and territory.

 

[Toxoderidae]

Metallicas are much better than other pokies, but as poec said, can be much worse. If you were going to do a communal, you'd want 30+ slings around the 3/4" stage in a HUGE enclosure, designed to be communal for life. Otherwise, I doubt it would work. There's only one species truly considered communal, and that's H. Incei, but even there we have some debate on if they truly are, or just tolerant.

 

[son31]

thanks for the insight guys!

 

[Pociemon]

All poecilotheria can be left together untill 2 molt, then they should be separated, there are a few exceptions though that can go in colonies without big risk of cannibalism. But as general rule you should seperate them them when they have reached 2. molt. But this is mostly used for breeders as it saves alot of time feeding them. I would not reccomend you do it with just 2. I have breed many poecs and i have thrown different sacs together with absolutely no problem at all, aslong as food is available at all times. But they are not social T´s, just tolerant at times where it benefits them. Poecilotheria also have been seen share hides with centipedes and scorpions in the wild, but this is for every animals benefit to avoid predation.

 

[Philth]

Introducing two 4 inch spiders that have been on their own is a bad idea.

Metallicas are much better than other pokies, but as poec said, can be much worse. If you were going to do a communal, you'd want 30+ slings around the 3/4" stage in a HUGE enclosure

Putting small slings in a "HUGE" cage will give them space to establish their own territory and cause cannibalism. It's well known that smaller cages work better.

There's only one species truly considered communal, and that's H. Incei, but even there we have some debate on if they truly are, or just tolerant.

I've had N. incei eat each other in a communal type set up. I would say M. balfouri is by far the most communal species in the hobby.

I've raised quite a few species of Poecilotheria with very little cannibalism although I tend to agree adults should be separated. For me, the time saved raising them communally far out weighs the lose of 2-3 spiders out of a couple of hundred that I've kept that way.

Later, Tom

 

[Poec54]

I've raised quite a few species of Poecilotheria with very little cannibalism although I tend to agree adults should be separated. For me, the time saved raising them communally far out weighs the lose of 2-3 spiders out of a couple of hundred that I've kept that way.

I also keep Poecs slings I hatch out in small groups for months, with the exception of ornata, which have been known to cannibalize at 2nd instar. Not worth the risk for them.

From the definitive 2008 book on Poecilotheria (ISBN 3-936180-27-X), "Ornament Vogelspinnen, Die Gattung Poecilotheria":

- ornata and (some) metallica are recommended as safe to keep together only as far as the 'nymph' stage.
- up to 6 months: formosa, (some) regalis, (some) striata, & (some) metallica.
- up to 12 months: fasciata, vittata, tigrina, (some) regalis, (some) striata, & (some) rufilata.
- over a year: miranda, subfusca, & (some) rufilata.

The authors acknowledge that there are people have successfully kept these species longer than the above, but that it must be tempered with the fact that there also have been a number of disasters.

 

[Philth]

From the definitive 2008 book on Poecilotheria (ISBN 3-936180-27-X), "Ornament Vogelspinnen, Die Gattung Poecilotheria":

- ornata and (some) metallica are recommended as safe to keep together only as far as the 'nymph' stage.

I guess mine didn't read the book




Later, Tom

 

[TomKemp]

These photos are wonderful Tom.

 

[Poec54]

I guess mine didn't read the book

Beautiful sight, but did you catch the last line on my post? "The authors acknowledge that there are people have successfully kept these species longer than the above, but that it must be tempered with the fact that there also have been a number of disasters."

The question for everyone considering a group Poec cage is: will yours fall in the recommended ranges from the Ornament Vogelspinnen book, or will they be an exception? The authors of that book have seen, and are aware of, many more group cages than any of us ever will. There's been many unexpected failures, including those that have been together for years. One of the members here from South Africa had his Poec group cages suddenly turn cannibalistic after several years together. You would think if they made it that long, there wouldn't be anymore fights to the death, which is exactly why the authors of Ornament Vogelspinnen gave the recommendations they did. Beyond those times is when things have started to turn bad. We don't know what will trigger fights; in the wild, tense situations may be diffused by some leaving short term or permanently relocating. But being artificially confined in small cage, there's no escape or cooling off for the participants. Whereas in the wild, a fight may only involve two of the inhabitants, in a small cage in captivity they all may be drug into it and a group cage can be wiped out in minutes.

 

[Philth]

Beautiful sight, but did you catch the last line on my post? "The authors acknowledge that there are people have successfully kept these species longer than the above, but that it must be tempered with the fact that there also have been a number of disasters."

Yup, I read all of it. I was just having a little fun with it, and it gave me a reason to post pretty spider pics lol.

But being artificially confined in small cage, there's no escape or cooling off for the participants. Whereas in the wild, a fight may only involve two of the inhabitants, in a small cage in captivity they all may be drug into it and a group cage can be wiped out in minutes.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I think a royal rumble death match wiping out a whole cage in minutes is a bit extreme and very unlikely. At least I haven't seen or heard of any such events yet, for the most part my communals have been overwhelmingly peaceful. Either way, I don't keep them together as adults.

Later, Tom

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I guess mine didn't read the book




Later, Tom

@ removing boluse & watering time in that enclosure.
Jok

 

[Introvertebrate]

That's an expensive spider to lose in a cannibalism accident. I'm no sexing expert, but at least one of them looks like a mature male near the end of his life anyway.

 

[Illusion]

I guess mine didn't read the book




Later, Tom

do they not go for the same food item and make you cringe?

 

[Pociemon]

@ removing boluse & watering time in that enclosure.
Jok

What a joy

 

[Philth]

That's an expensive spider to lose in a cannibalism accident. I'm no sexing expert, but at least one of them looks like a mature male near the end of his life anyway.

There's no mature males in there, they're about 4 inches in those pics, none have matured yet. I only experiment with communals of species that I've hatched myself, so there' little financial lose if ones gets eaten.

Cage maintenance is just as easy as any other spider cage, most of them run and hide behind the cork bark at the slightest disturbance. I can freely have the door open and do what I need to do. The hardest problem with a communal type set up is rehoming them into a larger cage. It's not always so easy to convince 20 fast arboreal spiders to go the same way into a new cage. New housing means new territory, and has always been linked to the very few times I've witnessed cannibalism.

Later, Tom