Opinion piece: Keeping Australian Natives as pets is a good idea

[Chris LXXIX]

Lakota, mitawa kola. It's good to hear of the Aus Gov incorporating the Abo into the conservation efforts. Like their north American counterparts, they live between worlds and need their sense of purpose renewed or rekindled.

Great I love Native Americans, they are the True Americans, and Crazy Horse, the True American Hero.

 

[The Snark]

Great I love Native Americans, they are the True Americans, and Crazy Horse, the True American Hero.

Right. Heros.
I see yunkelo in their faces yet they have no honor. Tesunke Witko to his cousin
"Where's my furniture, you son of a bitch? I want every stick of it back!" General Douglas MacArthur to the mayor of Manila at the celebration of his triumphant return.

Back on the topic. Whither goest thou, Australia, in thy shiny black conservation efforts in the night?

 

[Zervoid]

This positively elitist attitude among the Australian science community connected to the government is virtually analogous of xenophobia.

Somehow I missed this lol. Come on please don't fall into the same tired old stereotype of labelling Australia the ugly 'racist' nation. Because we are really getting tired of it. Did you know we are the most diverse country in our region, and that Japan has the same conditions within it's country that it did before WW2, which means it is more 'racist' than we will ever be. They pretty much have a 'white asian policy' that is never questioned, and continues today. This article put the whole thing in perspective for me http://www.woroni.com.au/comment/if-australia-is-racist-what-does-that-make-japan-and-south-korea/

“This positively elitist attitude among the Australian science community connected to the government is virtually analogous of xenophobia. "We know everything and are never wrong." Or at least, we certainly know our animals better than you.” That’s about the way it goes everywhere and in almost all egotistical professions, just the nature of people I guess. I’ve seen it from your point of view also Zervoid, when there doesn’t appear to be much going wrong, people will find something wrong. It doesn't matter where they are on the planet. If there is nothing wrong, they will create a problem so they can fix it. If they can finally find a small problem then they will exaggerate it. I’m convinced we have an innate drive to have a problem because in harder times we always did have a problem so it’s as though we have a place in our minds reserved for having a problem to solve. It’s like in the Simpson episode when Marge Simpson gets bored and so goes to poke baby Maggie Simpson while she is sleeping to make her cry so she can make her feel better haha. As to the poor in the US, it’s probably not what you think, what you’ve read and heard is probably a result of exaggerating a problem. When you read about it, it sounds horrible. But the poor in the US have shelters and government doles, welfare, gov housing they can hit. Many don’t do it because they don’t care enough, are mentally ill or are doing a lot of drugs. I’ve tried to help some of these people, many are fine where they are and it would take years to change the way they think. The way they think is how most of them ended up where they are. Many “poor” people here have a car, TV, food and a place to live but still qualify as poor. Give a homeless person here a place to stay and they often go back to the streets because something is wrong with their mind. Many you see on the streets don’t want to work, they are more comfortable sleeping under a bridge. Some are honest about it, holding up signs at street corners saying, “I need beer money!” I lived in some crack house rat holes trying to save money in my earlier days and I met some of these people. It didn’t take long for me to go recluse, lock my door, put black plastic over my windows and stop feeling sorry for them. The conservation movement is pushed by the UN, you ever looked into it? Go to the United Nations site and look up Agenda21 and Biodiversity. Some countries are on board more than others, the US “is” practically the UN, on board 100% and funding the UN the max it can, almost 25% with tiny funding from the other 190+ member states. So read the agenda there and you will be reading the US agenda, basically. Really look into it, where it all came from, and you will be sent down the rabbit hole. For example, look up Gro Harlem Bruntland’s involvement with the UN, the UN gives her credit for worldwide anti-smoking movement but, …who knew. We just see these trickle down gov subsidized anti-smoking ads and don’t think much about it. I’m not a smoker and not saying it’s a bad thing to discourage smoking, only saying these movements start somewhere. I just don't like the thought of being manipulated to move and think a certain way without knowing what the agenda is, happens all the time though.

Thankyou, I agree with everything you have said here. It's a breath of fresh air to be honest. And yes I agree that we always need something to worry about or hate for our societies to function, you will find that is the cornerstone of what keeps civilizations alive. Fear. They use fear to control us. Without fear it would be much more difficult to control large populations. Without enemies we just become like everyone else, people. Feminism is another example of this phenomenon, without men to hate it would simply die. Like you I am tired of being taken advantage of by Governments and agendas. If you want to read about some really scary agendas investigate the male circumcision being conducted in Africa at this time, it will shock you.

Great I love Native Americans, they are the True Americans, and Crazy Horse, the True American Hero.

Oh come on don't pile on the white guilt. Tired old stereotype and agenda. What would be the alternative for the Americas? Would you prefer to see Russia ruling it, or have some Middle Eastern country discover the Americas first and create civilizations? Seriously when are you going to see that the British colonization, although not fair and brutal at times, in the long run has proved to create the most humane societies. Just look at how ethnic minorities are treated in places like Indonesia, where the people of West Papua are slaughtered and have their throats slit. Would you prefer it if the people of Indonesia ruled the Australasian landmass, and not the British?

It's natural and normal for more dominant militaristic civilizations to take over ones who are not so militaristic, it's not a white colonial thing, it's just nature. Just because Europeans look so different to everyone else somehow we are singled out as this exception. I don't know if you realize but native peoples in the Amercias were doing exactly what later white colonialists were doing for hundreds, if not thousands of yeas before any European stepped foot on the Americas. Just research the Inca for some perspective.

Right. Heros.
I see yunkelo in their faces yet they have no honor. Tesunke Witko to his cousin
"Where's my furniture, you son of a bitch? I want every stick of it back!" General Douglas MacArthur to the mayor of Manila at the celebration of his triumphant return.

Back on the topic. Whither goest thou, Australia, in thy shiny black conservation efforts in the night?

All of the more powerful civilizations are arrogant like that, it's not something unique to white Europeans. Look at what the Maya would demand and do to other cities and Kings they conquered. But that was native Americans fighting with other native Americans, so they get a pass, right? Lol.

I am not excusing the brutality of white colonialism, and I don't support it, but when I look around the world today and see the intolerance, and then I look at the west with it's tolerance, with things like allowing same sex marriage, then it makes me realize that perhaps colonialism wasn't the worst thing to happen. To me the worst thing that could happen would be for the world to never know what human rights and freedom is as it materializes in the West today. We so easily take it for granted, but it so easily could never have eventuated. So please don't take advantage of our freedoms by being disingenuous and criticizing everything about our societies.

As far as the animals go I couldn't care less, nothing I will say can appease you.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Somehow I missed this lol. Come on please don't fall into the same tired old stereotype of labelling Australia the ugly 'racist' nation. Because we are really getting tired of it. Did you know we are the most diverse country in our region, and that Japan has the same conditions within it's country that it did before WW2, which means it is more 'racist' than we will ever be. They pretty much have a 'white asian policy' that is never questioned, and continues today. This article put the whole thing in perspective for me http://www.woroni.com.au/comment/if-australia-is-racist-what-does-that-make-japan-and-south-korea/







Thankyou, I agree with everything you have said here. It's a breath of fresh air to be honest. And yes I agree that we always need something to worry about or hate for our societies to function, you will find that is the cornerstone of what keeps civilizations alive. Fear. They use fear to control us. Without fear it would be much more difficult to control large populations. Without enemies we just become like everyone else, people. Feminism is another example of this phenomenon, without men to hate it would simply die. Like you I am tired of being taken advantage of by Governments and agendas. If you want to read about some really scary agendas investigate the male circumcision being conducted in Africa at this time, it will shock you.



Oh come on don't pile on the white guilt. Tired old stereotype and agenda. What would be the alternative for the Americas? Would you prefer to see Russia ruling it, or have some Middle Eastern country discover the Americas first and create civilizations? Seriously when are you going to see that the British colonization, although not fair and brutal at times, in the long run has proved to create the most humane societies. Just look at how ethnic minorities are treated in places like Indonesia, where the people of West Papua are slaughtered and have their throats slit. Would you prefer it if the people of Indonesia ruled the Australasian landmass, and not the British?

It's natural and normal for more dominant militaristic civilizations to take over ones who are not so militaristic, it's not a white colonial thing, it's just nature. Just because Europeans look so different to everyone else somehow we are singled out as this exception. I don't know if you realize but native peoples in the Amercias were doing exactly what later white colonialists were doing for hundreds, if not thousands of yeas before any European stepped foot on the Americas. Just research the Inca for some perspective.



All of the more powerful civilizations are arrogant like that, it's not something unique to white Europeans. Look at what the Maya would demand and do to other cities and Kings they conquered. But that was native Americans fighting with other native Americans, so they get a pass, right? Lol.

I am not excusing the brutality of white colonialism, and I don't support it, but when I look around the world today and see the intolerance, and then I look at the west with it's tolerance, with things like allowing same sex marriage, then it makes me realize that perhaps colonialism wasn't the worst thing to happen. To me the worst thing that could happen would be for the world to never know what human rights and freedom is as it materializes in the West today. We so easily take it for granted, but it so easily could never have eventuated. So please don't take advantage of our freedoms by being disingenuous and criticizing everything about our societies.

As far as the animals go I couldn't care less, nothing I will say can appease you.

I can't reply because this is Arachnoboards, not a political forum. I only said that, IMO, Crazy Horse is the Real American Hero. He was a noble man and brave warrior, who quit his fight only because childrens, elders and womens couldn't continue the battle, in that cold.. lost war, enviroment. And i wish, one day, to see his Ziolkowski Memorial completed.

 

[The Snark]

I would like to steer this thread towards better understanding the Australian government and the rationale behind their motivations and decisions. Perhaps, with better understanding, a two way street of tolerance could be worked towards.

I will have to resort to the US and their Fish and Game department for comparison. This isn't exactly helpful as most of my knowledge of the F&G comes from first hand knowledge of their field operatives and representatives.*

From what I have encountered of the Aus authorities and the US F&G, they both pack a hefty holier than thou attitude and in enforcement of the laws, our way or the highway when it comes to tolerance.

I know that many of the American laws regarding wildlife find their roots and origins in political shenanigans and a very hefty dose of ignorance and constituency brown nosing. Many of the laws they enact range from purely textbook with little on the ground reality attached on out to wild flights of fancy and fantasy. For example, one senators highly educated comment, "Nothing wrong with killing off the deer. That just leaves more food for the valuable animals. (He was firmly in the pockets of the American Cattlemans Association). And deer are responsible for the spread of 'that disease'. (Lyme's-they aren't)" With wonderful people like that running the show, don't expect a whole lot of common sense from the fish cops out on your favorite stretch of river.

So how does Australia stack up in comparison?

And then when it comes to import and export. I've come to expect absolutely no common sense at all from the US Government. They may get it right, or they may establish rules and restrictions going entirely by the international political scenes and motivations that have absolutely nothing with do with conservation or exploitation. How does Australia stack up on that front?


* F&G at their finest:
- Without a depredation permit, impossible for me to get, the bear will have to actually be attacking me or one of the campers for me to legally shoot him. A hungry bear in the midst of 50 freaked out inner city children is not a legitimate reason to kill it.
- The note on the table clearly stated the man's friend had caught the fish. The F&G cop ticketed the man anyway because he was 'in possession' of them at that moment and had no license,
- The 'buck' was a freak forked horn doe. The F&G cop ticketed the hunter anyway.
- I spent several hours following a blood trail and put down a wounded buck that had 2 arrows in it. The bow hunters were long gone. When I went to report the incident I got cited for shooting a deer without a license.

---------- Post added 09-10-2015 at 06:11 AM ----------

To give another example of how bizarre conservation efforts are mis or un coordinated in America

I was more or less in charge of an experimental conservation effort. A vast tract of land in the Sierra Nevada mountains was set aside as a 'Primitive Wildlife Conservation Area'. In return for the lease on this land, virtually for free, I was tasked with policing the area. Cleaning up trash, making certain no additional trails were cut and the existing trails usage were not encroaching on animal habitats. All trails were strictly foot and horse traffic only. No random hunting of non game animals were permitted and so on. Then in the middle of summer I'm startled by a large group of tourists on motorcycles. I stopped them and informed them they were in a restricted area. One person pulled out a map from the department of the interior that had newly opened up the entire area -except for one critical erosion risk trail-, to recreational vehicles. The next day a helicopter came in to give me a royal chewing out for harassing the tourists. Nice to know the government was so coordinated with itself.

 

[Zervoid]

If only governments could realize the great economic benefit of being more relaxed with what people in the US and Australia could own.

At the moment the illegal wildlife trade is estimated to be $20 billion, http://www.alternet.org/world/inside-horrifying-20-billion-illegal-wildlife-trade

Australia is almost identical to the US when it comes to these issues; they seem more concerned about taking your money with unnecessary permits, than they do about the grass roots situation for the wildlife.

Instead of implementing mere revenue generating mechanisms with little to no accountability such as CITES and reptile permits, perhaps allowing exotic animals to be captive bred in the US and Australia legally would stamp out the black market trade altogether and create economic stimulus for our countries at the same time.

All I want is an end to illegal smuggling and the black market trade, if that means legalizing the keeping of native and exotic wildlife here then I think it's a reasonable compromise to make.

 

[The Snark]

One thing is for damned sure, making something illegal only opens the flood gates for the professional criminals to make a fortune. As a prime example, the various world wide 'wars on drugs' has undoubtedly funneled trillions of dollars into criminals pockets over the years.

This knee jerk response of passing poorly thought out laws criminalizing something is way too often just a political and public pacifier. It is just much easier than working out long range systematic methodical solutions.

Look at Thailand. The worlds gateway for illegal animal trade. Both locals and the international scene make all sorts of indignant noises but the flood continues unabated. Over 2000 elephant tusks destroyed just last week.

It's about time we get over these convenient stop gaps and start using those frontal lobes.

 

[Zervoid]

So true. Why can't more people see this?

What genuinely makes me angry about all this, is that we won't be able to capitalize on the mainstream attention and media coverage this issue is getting via the Johnny Depp saga which is playing out and has captured world wide attention. Because another story is dominating the headlines at the moment and drowning everything else out. Real shame.

I think even if Australia allowed 10 native species to be kept domestically, along with 10 exotics, that would boost the pet trade industry a lot. Just imagine the level of interest the invert hobby would garner here if people could own a T blondi or exotic mammal; likewise imagine the surge in pet sales overseas if people had the opportunity to own a Tasmanian Devil or Weaver ant.

What I have found is Australians are completely isolated in their thought processes from the environment around them. We grow up with the 'European mindset', learning about Europe and America, all our literature deals with wildlife found in those two places; while children sit in classrooms with Kookaburras laughing outside. We have a tendency to see native wildlife as pests, especially if it is prolific. For example weaver ants here are seen as pests, while in Europe and Asia they are kept quite frequently as pets and also farmed.

I think weaver ants could be great educational tools to teach children about the circle of life, and the importance of cooperation and working together, but I doubt this view would be very popular.

 

[The Snark]

To bounce something off people. A stop gap that really could work: Licensed, trained 'Animal keepers'. People who adhere to strict rules and regulations, have demonstrated their abilities to properly husband animals, and maintain very rigid standards. Sort of gateway keepers; templates others could follow. I'm talking about the licensing most European countries require to keep hots. NOT THE PEDESTRIAN PET TRADE. Anyone is welcome to apply but it is going to take a lot more than owning a tank or cage and tossing in a few animals. Set an example to the governments on one hand, and the casual pet owners on the other. There is certainly room for these examples of proper husbandry.

Those green ants were certainly an education for me as to where to not park your caravan. The rear bumper was up against a bush they had a nest in. Went for a walk and came back to discover we couldn't get in our vehicle. The park owners were wise to this ant trick and came over with their little pumper fire truck to hose the ants away. The heck with parking in the shade. We removed to the space the farthest away from any potential bush or tree they might be nesting in.

(It was around that time I discovered the worlds most hostile, dangerous plant. A whazeegahoozits bamboo/palm/angry-enemy-god alien anti-humanity trap with 12 inch rapier spines that could easily puncture the tires of your car, penetrate heavy leather boots or if you were unlucky enough to trot or run into one, puncture your internal organs. I named it ******* **** (rhymes with clucking bell) on the spot.)

 

[Najakeeper]

By the way, I am more than happy to say that a Kangroo's life or a Croc's life can, in certain circumstances, be more valuable than a human's life and/or happiness.

We are the scourge on this planet and there are way too many of us to care.


As for Australia's ban on export, it really is quite counter productive. I keep Aussie hots and the ones that we have now are getting to be severely inbred as we don't have genetic variation. If Australia had a captive bred population of animals for sale, I am sure it would reduce the pressure on the wild populations, which smugglers are very interested in. I mean, if I wanted to buy a pair of Acanthophis wellsi here, it would cost me over €5k! And I know people, who would pay that in a heartbeat. Obviously, this is a smugglers dream.

 

[jigalojey]

As for the Kangaroo statement, those guys are just so impossible to miss out on outback dark roads especially when you're in a big truck (which is what hits most of them) that literally can't break in time, but don't worry, their numbers are pretty much out of control so it's not like people are accidentally running over almost extinct animals. As for Aussie exporting, I would personally prefer if they weren't exported but if they were it should be required that they're captive bred.

 

[The Snark]

To explain the Aus outback and the advent of Roo and Bull bars on vehicles

The distances in the outback are vast. There is one ranch outside Katherine that covers nearly 1/6th the size of Texas (if memory serves). Trips between 'stations' on these ranches often constitute several hours or even all day affairs. Add to these distances there are very few paved roads.

While driving the outback I observed from a police officers perspective. In the Northern Territory there are no speed limits outside of the very few rural areas. Road Trains, ultra powerful trucks pulling 3 ~36 foot trailers get up to 100 MPH*. It doesn't take much advanced math to figure the braking of those monsters to avoid a collision just isn't going to happen. People drive at speeds where in the US any of them could and would be cited for Reckless Endangerment. Well, the outback is like one of those crappy cartoons where the same scenery scrolls past over and over. If you have to drive out there regularly you drive like a bat out of hell unless you want to spend a significant portion of your life watching what appears to be that same Euc go past several thousand times. The trip from Darwin to the closest major city, Alice Springs, is 1000+ miles. Think Dallas to Houston on steroids with only the teeming metropolises of Katherine, population ~6000, and Tennant Creek, population 3000, in between. Flat wide open lots of nothing out there.

So a culture of motorhead maniacs has evolved throughout much of the outback. You could drive at safe speeds as defined as never driving faster than you can safely bring your vehicle to a complete stop in the distance you can see. Or you can slap on those massive steel protection devices on front and get that trip over with. IE Lots of splats and 'oh well, another one bites the dust'.

* On 'The Track' meeting Road Trains. I was driving a Toyota Van. It packed about 500 pounds of steel on front including a heavy expanded metal screen over the wind screen. I had been clued, unlike the occasional happy clueless tourist in a motorhome: If you see a road train coming, slow down, move off to the side of the road and angle the rock screen straight at the 'bull dust'. The road train is going right down the middle of the two lane highway. The blast of displaced air shoots out like from a jet engine 100 feet to each side then curls up into the air to resemble a water buffaloes horns. The driver completely ignores us. WHAM! We get hit by the 'bull horn' wind and the van briefly goes up on two wheels. The third road train going past and we hear a CRUNCH. A rock as big as my fist is embedded in our rock screen a few inches from the top. Just a little bonus entertainment, Northern Territory style.

The next day nearing Queensland we saw a Winnebago motorhome that wasn't clued and equipped. It had taken a blast from a road train full on the side and had been rolled like a ping pong ball out into the bush. We were informed later the road train driver was not cited. The motorhome driver was the reckless one.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

To explain the Aus outback and the advent of Roo and Bull bars on vehicles

The distances in the outback are vast. There is one ranch outside Katherine that covers nearly 1/6th the size of Texas (if memory serves). Trips between 'stations' on these ranches often constitute several hours or even all day affairs. Add to these distances there are very few paved roads.

While driving the outback I observed from a police officers perspective. In the Northern Territory there are no speed limits outside of the very few rural areas. Road Trains, ultra powerful trucks pulling 3 ~36 foot trailers get up to 100 MPH*. It doesn't take much advanced math to figure the braking of those monsters to avoid a collision just isn't going to happen. People drive at speeds where in the US any of them could and would be cited for Reckless Endangerment. Well, the outback is like one of those crappy cartoons where the same scenery scrolls past over and over. If you have to drive out there regularly you drive like a bat out of hell unless you want to spend a significant portion of your life watching what appears to be that same Euc go past several thousand times. The trip from Darwin to the closest major city, Alice Springs, is 1000+ miles. Think Dallas to Houston on steroids with only the teeming metropolises of Katherine, population ~6000, and Tennant Creek, population 3000, in between. Flat wide open lots of nothing out there.

So a culture of motorhead maniacs has evolved throughout much of the outback. You could drive at safe speeds as defined as never driving faster than you can safely bring your vehicle to a complete stop in the distance you can see. Or you can slap on those massive steel protection devices on front and get that trip over with. IE Lots of splats and 'oh well, another one bites the dust'.

* On 'The Track' meeting Road Trains. I was driving a Toyota Van. It packed about 500 pounds of steel on front including a heavy expanded metal screen over the wind screen. I had been clued, unlike the occasional happy clueless tourist in a motorhome: If you see a road train coming, slow down, move off to the side of the road and angle the rock screen straight at the 'bull dust'. The road train is going right down the middle of the two lane highway. The blast of displaced air shoots out like from a jet engine 100 feet to each side then curls up into the air to resemble a water buffaloes horns. The driver completely ignores us. WHAM! We get hit by the 'bull horn' wind and the van briefly goes up on two wheels. The third road train going past and we hear a CRUNCH. A rock as big as my fist is embedded in our rock screen a few inches from the top. Just a little bonus entertainment, Northern Territory style.

The next day nearing Queensland we saw a Winnebago motorhome that wasn't clued and equipped. It had taken a blast from a road train full on the side and had been rolled like a ping pong ball out into the bush. We were informed later the road train driver was not cited. The motorhome driver was the reckless one.

I love that Mad Max style. But Italy is on another level.
Here someone drunk, or under heavy drugs (or under both) and maybe with a "grand theft auto" car, if "carmageddon" someone who cross, with green light on, white stripes if particular unlucky, after 2 years drives again.

 

[The Snark]

I love that Mad Max style. But Italy is on another level.
Here someone drunk, or under heavy drugs (or under both) and maybe with a "grand theft auto" car, if "carmageddon" someone who cross, with green light on, white stripes if particular unlucky, after 2 years drives again.

I've experienced Italy. A solid 15% of the drivers need serious professional help. Driving like complete maniacs they come into the towns where buildings come right up to the edge of the road. Intersections are completely blind and a safe speed is often 10 MPH. So coming up to those blind intersections, what do these grand theft auto drivers do? HONK THE HORN AND SPEED UP!!

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I've experienced Italy. A solid 15% of the drivers need serious professional help. Driving like complete maniacs they come into the towns where buildings come right up to the edge of the road. Intersections are completely blind and a safe speed is often 10 MPH. So coming up to those blind intersections, what do these grand theft auto drivers do? HONK THE HORN AND SPEED UP!!

The sad part is that everyday there's someone crying on news. Childrens, elders, grandfather/mothers, killed by car pirates. Here all of that is labeled under "incidents", like a normal incident.
Where have you been, btw?

 

[The Snark]

How else would I get a supercharged Alfa into the US except disguising it as a Vauxhall, going there and doing it myself? Would you trust Italian mechanics?

Anyway, I'm here now. What were we talking about? OH! Aus animals, both smeared over the front bumpers and behind the wheel.

 

[Vinegaroonie]

I lived in Italy for a while. Eventually, we stopped driving except for out in the countryside.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I lived in Italy for a while. Eventually, we stopped driving except for out in the countryside.

This is normality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=57&v=8sFk5kgY_V8

I love that sort of "DIY Anarchy" there's here in Italy. Seriously. And not only for driving.

 

[Zervoid]

It's hard to be bothered replying when I am constantly reading on this board how people value an animals life above humans. I routinely hear on this forum about how humans are just destructive and animals are so great. It gives people who are interested in animals a bad name and damages the hobby. Why you can't be more reasonable in your arguments is beyond me. Bye.

 

[BobGrill]

It's hard to be bothered replying when I am constantly reading on this board how people value an animals life above humans. I routinely hear on this forum about how humans are just destructive and animals are so great. It gives people who are interested in animals a bad name and damages the hobby. Why you can't be more reasonable in your arguments is beyond me. Bye.

See ya

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