Question Openly advertising illegal shipping (USPS) is ok but discussion of other illegal activities is not?

edesign

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Why isn't there a rule against posting ads that use the USPS to ship? Unlike private carriers which have no legal repercussions if caught it Is against federal law to use the USPS to ship scorpions and tarantulas (and trues).

Brownboxing posts aren't allowed, scammers are swiftly dealt with, and discussion of other illegal activities is not allowed per the forum rules but ads openly advertising breaking federal law are allowed? I'm confused.

At the very least I would think there'd be a sticky about the potential legal trouble in the Classifieds but that's still allowing "Unacceptable material". UPS and FedEx can't involve law enforcement if they catch you breaking their rules, they can ban you from shipping at worst, but the USPS certainly can.

Last bullet point in the "Unacceptable material" list:

  • The promotion or discussion of illegal activities, including (but not limited to) the act of smuggling and the use, sale, or distribution of illegal substances.
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/unacceptable-language-and-material.110049/
 

Chris LXXIX

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Unlike private carriers which have no legal repercussions if caught it Is against federal law to use the USPS to ship scorpions and tarantulas (and trues).
Are you 100% so sure of that, man? I mean, technically even a private company can protest about the shipping of something that isn't allowed, one moment. That's not like breaking a Federal law, sure, but they can bring someone in front of a judge for that... o no? :-s
 

edesign

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I'm 99% sure of it. If they ban you from shipping and you try to circumvent that ban then sure. But just for breaking a company rule and no civil or criminal code I don't see how they could. If a spider somehow escaped and bit an employee then maybe.

Stealing inventory from a store is against their rules but it is also a criminal law violation. Staying on a business' property after being told to leave is similar, it violates a criminal law. Touching something you're not supposed to and damaging it, destruction of property, criminal violation. Shipping spiders domestically...I'm not aware of a US federal law or FAA or other regulatory agencies that prohibits it.

This has been discussed a few times on the forums too and the consensus is the same.
 

Chris LXXIX

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If a spider somehow escaped and bit an employee then maybe.
Yes. That's what I wanted to say, basically. Even if probably a scenario like that is more rare than winning the Powerball lottery two times in a lifetime, I bet everything I have that, if a P.murinus escapes and bites a FedEx employee, they will sue the one that shipped the arachnid and that probably wouldn't be good, cash talking uh.

Muahahah but in all honesty to see something like that, curses included, would be more funny than Stanlio, Ollio and Abbot and Costello combined together like when in Italy a parcel full of crickets was opened and those singing lovely stormed a mail office :rofl: :)
 

edesign

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Yeah, certainly on that case they could involve law enforcement. For the simple act of shipping something against their rules that isn't a violation of any other government regulatory agency, no.

Cricket invasion! Crunch crunch crunch lol
 

edesign

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Was hoping for a reply from one of the admins about this...
 

Jason B

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While I can't comment on the admins point of view I can say this, if your caught importing something illegally you will most likely face some form of prosecution and the ones who will catch you will also be the ones that prosecute you. Where the post office isn't going to come to your house and arrest you not only that but they might not even attempt to press charges. The other thing to keep in mind if your brown boxing your going to be the one facing charges not the guy over seas sending the box he might not even be breaking any local laws. However when your shipping through the post office the risk becomes the sellers risk as it is going to be alot easier for them to prosecute the person who sent the box.

About 6 or so years ago I ordered some cpl c. versi slings, they got shipped usps but instead of geting a box I got a letter stating I needed to go down to the post office as my package had been damaged. When I got down there I was pretty nervous, the envelope had been destroyed, but the post master handed me 2 straws and the invoice and apologized repeated to me. They even asked me how they were doing whenever I went in there (they were fine). Had this happened to a package from another country I feel it would have played out a bit different.

Again I think it comes down to allowing brown-boxing protects someone who may not be aware of the laws regarding imports thinking its legal because the seller who won't be the one getting in trouble tells them its ok. Where as with usps the seller is going to be the one facing a fine for shipping banned substances.
 

Xafron

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Its only illegal to ship via usps, shipping via fedex and usps your not breaking a law your breaking a companys policy and they may ban you from shipping items through them but its not illegal.
That's not what it sounded like to me, but I am not good with legal speak...

Reading further down it says "Using the U.S. Postal Service to ship items that Congress and the Postal Service define as "hazardous" and nonmailable is illegal. Trafficking in animals that are protected under the Endangered Species Act is generally illegal. "Brown boxing" (having animals shipped to you internationally without the proper permit(s) and/or without declaring them to Customs and the Fish and Wildlife Service) is illegal. UPS and FedEx, however, are just private companies. Their terms and conditions are not law. Violating those terms of service may be a breach of contract, but is not illegal. Of course, it's possible to violate the law while also violating a company's terms of service."

Sounds like walking on thin ice at best...does nobody really worry about this? I'm surprised in all my research on both tarantulas and shipping them, that I only just now stumbled across this topic by accident.
 

edesign

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I already summarized the legal vs "simply against the rules" aspects in my OP. There is no grey area. I thought it is very clear and unambiguous. Short of violating abFAA or other regulatory agency's rules using UPS or FedEx to ship them is only against their company rules and involves zero legal repercussions...unlike the USPS who's rules are legally enforceable. And the post office won't arrest you. They have zero law enforcement capability. The appropriate law enforcement agency will though if the USPS requests it.

I did not post this thread in regards to international shipping. That's a completely different subject. I posted it in regards to people posting FS ads stating they will ship via USPS despite it being illegal, not simply against a company's rules, and the fact that the site rules say no discussion of illegal activities.

The trafficking of CITES listed species is only valid for international shipping. It doesn't apply to domestic shipping.

I appreciate the discussion but I'd like to keep this thread on topic and not discuss the ability to ship via one carrier or another. This is only about why FS ads that explicitly state they will ship via USPS (illegal and thus against the rules) are not removed by admin. I'll have to tag the admin team as this has been up for over a week and no reply.
 

Xafron

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I already summarized the legal vs "simply against the rules" aspects in my OP. There is no grey area. I thought it is very clear and unambiguous. Short of violating abFAA or other regulatory agency's rules using UPS or FedEx to ship them is only against their company rules and involves zero legal repercussions...unlike the USPS who's rules are legally enforceable. And the post office won't arrest you. They have zero law enforcement capability. The appropriate law enforcement agency will though if the USPS requests it.

I did not post this thread in regards to international shipping. That's a completely different subject. I posted it in regards to people posting FS ads stating they will ship via USPS despite it being illegal, not simply against a company's rules, and the fact that the site rules say no discussion of illegal activities.

The trafficking of CITES listed species is only valid for international shipping. It doesn't apply to domestic shipping.

I appreciate the discussion but I'd like to keep this thread on topic and not discuss the ability to ship via one carrier or another. This is only about why FS ads that explicitly state they will ship via USPS (illegal and thus against the rules) are not removed by admin. I'll have to tag the admin team as this has been up for over a week and no reply.
My bad. The way some of this was worded was rather confusing to me, and I'm one of those people who does my best to adhere to the law always. So when I read that I flipped out a bit. I even buy all my music...which a lot of people don't do anymore lol.
 

The Snark

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@edesign Valid questions only the admins can answer. Their arbitrary rules, culpability and criminal intent notwithstanding.
 

edesign

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My bad. The way some of this was worded was rather confusing to me, and I'm one of those people who does my best to adhere to the law always. So when I read that I flipped out a bit. I even buy all my music...which a lot of people don't do anymore lol.
I buy mine as well. I like buying CDs so I have a hard copy that can't be taken from me via DRM at the press of a button :) And I am old school, I like the CD inserts and reading the liner notes. Think I still have a bunch of cassettes somewhere too. Even a vinyl record lol. Just one.
 

edesign

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Bump for the admins. Still looking for an answer. I saw MrDeranged replied to a thread recently.
 
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