On the topic of ESA listed Tarantulas...

[l4nsky]

Hola,

My question is this. If I live in state A and someone has an ESA listed animal in state B, can I drive to State B and acquire the animal and take it back to State A? The FAQ on the government page is fuzzy on the topic. I found this:

Intrastate Commerce
Commercial activities that take place entirely in one state and involve legally acquired endangered or threatened species are not prohibited by the ESA.

But it doesnt specify if the buyer must be an in state resident. Or would the fact that I took it across state lines be considered shipment and thus prohibited? Why do these things always have to be so muddy. @Ungoliant, care to weigh in, disclaimer and all? I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
--Matt

 

[korg]

Come on, now... I think you know the answer to this one. If you're buying something so you can take it back to your home across state lines then the commercial activity is obviously not taking place in a single state, right? Do you really think the intent there is to ban only the sales where people are literally straddling a state border during the exact second the purchase is made?

 

[Nightstalker47]

You cannot bring them across state borders legally if they were purchased. It can be done if the specimens were "gifted", because that's not commercial activity.

Its a weird piece of legislation.

 

[MintyWood826]

What if you own residences in both state A and state B? Since it's legal to move with them, wouldn't it be legal in that case? It is far-fetched for the average person though...

 

[l4nsky]

Come on, now... I think you know the answer to this one. If you're buying something so you can take it back to your home across state lines then the commercial activity is obviously not taking place in a single state, right? Do you really think the intent there is to ban only the sales where people are literally straddling a state border during the exact second the purchase is made?

No of course I dont believe it, but I had to ask because it's not explicitly stated. I fully understand the gift clause, as quirky as it is. I just want to know if in state is defined as the transaction in one state or transaction in one state between residents of said state. This law has ramifications for a lot of species outside of tarantulas that I want to acquire and breed one day and I am just trying to fully understand it, like do I have to have a photocopy of a buyers driver license on hand if I sell a Radiated Tortoise in state?

 

[Greasylake]

If pokies could be sold like this then breeders would just bring them along to shows out of state. Unfortunately they're not able to do even that so there's not even that tiny shred of incentive. Government regulation + markets = wonderful things.

 

[RepublicofTexas81]

This is legislation I have never understood. While I am completely in favor of protections for species who wild numbers are at dangerously low levels, how does limiting sales of captive bred specimens protect anything? Its not like limiting the sales to in-state transactions is magically going to increase the wild populations.

 

[lostbrane]

What we’re seeing now is that a lot of people seemingly don’t want to bother with the Sri Lankan species due to not being able to sell them anywhere near as easily.

Which means no one in the US will be trying to import any from any source, which in turn might stop people collecting them from the wild. That’s a pretty big maybe though.

Sure, there is always the problem of habitat destruction but if you essentially cut off a part of the market it, in theory, would keep more spiders in the wild.

As to if that’s actually happening, I have no idea.

 

[anarchyintheak]

do you really think that anyone is going to Sri Lanka and collecting Poecilotheria? How often do you ever see WC Poecilotheria for sale overseas? seems like most Euro countries have no problem producing CBB stock, so why bother?

 

[EtienneN]

G. pulchras are still on the list, right? Because at my last local reptile show one of the two big T booths was from Indianapolis Indiana and was totally selling slings in Ohio. I didn't buy mine from there though, I got it from the breeder that does business in Ohio. People seem to cherry pick this kind of broad brush law, even to their own peril should they get caught. Read: Typhoclaena seladonia. It just seems super arbitrary to par it down to the state level, though. It's the same country. It'd be one thing if said species was just blanket banned. But that's not the case. Is this line of thinking in how the restriction is written to deter people from selling improperly imported spiders all over the US? That makes sense. I just wish it were easier to find people to buy from/sell to in your state. Some user on here a week or two back suggested a state by state directory of all the species that are restricted of people who are interested in breeding/selling. That sounds like a fantastic idea to me.

 

[Nightstalker47]

G. pulchras are still on the list, right? Because at my last local reptile show one of the two big T booths was from Indianapolis Indiana and was totally selling slings in Ohio. I didn't buy mine from there though, I got it from the breeder that does business in Ohio. People seem to cherry pick this kind of broad brush law, even to their own peril should they get caught. Read: Typhoclaena seladonia. It just seems super arbitrary to par it down to the state level, though. It's the same country. It'd be one thing if said species was just blanket banned. But that's not the case. Is this line of thinking in how the restriction is written to deter people from selling improperly imported spiders all over the US? That makes sense. I just wish it were easier to find people to buy from/sell to in your state. Some user on here a week or two back suggested a state by state directory of all the species that are restricted of people who are interested in breeding/selling. That sounds like a fantastic idea to me.

They are not.

 

[Olan]

G. pulchras are still on the list, right? Because at my last local reptile show one of the two big T booths was from Indianapolis Indiana and was totally selling slings in Ohio. I didn't buy mine from there though, I got it from the breeder that does business in Ohio. People seem to cherry pick this kind of broad brush law, even to their own peril should they get caught. Read: Typhoclaena seladonia. It just seems super arbitrary to par it down to the state level, though. It's the same country. It'd be one thing if said species was just blanket banned. But that's not the case. Is this line of thinking in how the restriction is written to deter people from selling improperly imported spiders all over the US? That makes sense. I just wish it were easier to find people to buy from/sell to in your state. Some user on here a week or two back suggested a state by state directory of all the species that are restricted of people who are interested in breeding/selling. That sounds like a fantastic idea to me.

No, not on the endangered species act. They are a Brazilian species, that must have been taken from the wild against Brazilian law (because Brazil has never allowed tarantula exports). But the government is only enforcing this in select cases. But do not mess with the ESA. It is pretty serious.

 

[mack1855]

Ok..lets be honest and up front..if you drive to state B,buy a whatever,and drive back to your state A,chances
are really,really good,that the state patrol,wildlife officers,or anyone else is not going to check your vehicle,baggage,
trunck,glove compartment for a Sir Lankan pokie.

If the seller dosent want,or care to check your residence,by drivers license,or state ID,then...what.
REALLY!!!...and on and on.

 

[Nightstalker47]

Ok..lets be honest and up front..if you drive to state B,buy a whatever,and drive back to your state A,chances
are really,really good,that the state patrol,wildlife officers,or anyone else is not going to check your vehicle,baggage,
trunck,glove compartment for a Sir Lankan pokie.

If the seller dosent want,or care to check your residence,by drivers license,or state ID,then...what.
REALLY!!!...and on and on.

The issue lies mainly for the large scale vendors, who stand to lose much more if they break the law, and certainly wont risk their business to sell and ship a few spiders to buyers in other states.

 

[l4nsky]

Ok..lets be honest and up front..if you drive to state B,buy a whatever,and drive back to your state A,chances
are really,really good,that the state patrol,wildlife officers,or anyone else is not going to check your vehicle,baggage,
trunck,glove compartment for a Sir Lankan pokie.

If the seller dosent want,or care to check your residence,by drivers license,or state ID,then...what.
REALLY!!!...and on and on.

Everytime one of these threads get brought up, someone mentions this and you're right. The same way you're not going to get caught every time you go 15mph over the speed limit, dont wear your seatbelts, or even use an illicit substance. Still doesn't make it legal or right to suggest (not saying you're suggesting it). As @Nightstalker47 said, it's a major problem for the breeders and dealers, and by extension, the hobbyist interested in the species. It's in everyone's interest to fully understand this law and abide by it to protect the hobby's future, hence my original question for clarity. I'm beginning to think I should just devote more effort to finding a lawyer with ESA experience or consult a breeder of an ESA species for their knowledge to put this all to rest.

Thanks,
--Matt

 

[mack1855]

The issue lies mainly for the large scale vendors,

Agreed.And large vendors will require proof of residence from the buyer,All other bets are off.
This whole mess is nothing more than a "feel good measure" from certain groups.

Im all for protecting the native populations in that particular animals native habitat,but this
does not address CB animals.We tried and failed last year.We were out shouted,and,yes.
out maneuvered by misguided do gooders...the whole thing just makes me ...I don't know!!!

hence my original question for clarity.

No,you cant do it since you asked....a large scale breeder will ask for state residence proof..a private
breeder...who can say...this whole subject gets me.....crazy!

Im going to stop now..

 

[Ungoliant]

Disclaimer: Nothing in this post is intended to create an attorney-client relationship or to be used as legal advice. The content of this post is offered for informational purposes only. This post should not be used as a substitute for obtaining legal advice from an attorney licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. You should always consult a competent attorney regarding any legal matter.

If I live in state A and someone has an ESA listed animal in state B, can I drive to State B and acquire the animal and take it back to State A? The FAQ on the government page is fuzzy on the topic. I found this:

But it doesnt specify if the buyer must be an in state resident. Or would the fact that I took it across state lines be considered shipment and thus prohibited?

You both need to be residents of the state where the transaction occurs.

What if you own residences in both state A and state B? Since it's legal to move with them, wouldn't it be legal in that case? It is far-fetched for the average person though...

I have not researched this issue, but this would probably be permitted under the Endangered Species Act if you are both residents of the state where the transaction occurred. (Owning a vacation home in the state might not cut it.)

The law has a concept called "domicile." No matter how many homes you own, you can only ever have one domicile.

G. pulchras are still on the list, right?

Grammostola pulchra is not a species protected under the Endangered Species Act. Nor is it on the CITES checklist. However, Brazil has its own laws governing export of its wildlife.