Old Poecilotheria rufilata with 1 leg stuck and 1 leg deformed after bad molt > how to proceed?

[Wolfram1]

High level thoughts while being rushed by other tasks and without seeing the full enclosure nor knowing the environmental variables throughout the year:

true

 

[Little Lasi]

I thought so. I had never even heard of it before HooahArmy said to get it but I always have some in now.

Amazon.co.uk

This is the one I bought as I said it's a little pricey to just have laying around but to me it's worth the price. I would rather have it n not need it then need it n not have it.
It lives in a box with sterile gloves, cornflour, cotton buds, unused soft hair brushes, and cotton pads, it's my just incase box . I got paranoid after the way Amaterasu turned up in the post so I like to have it...just incase.

Excuse the late response, but the last 2 days unfortunately became very stressful!
And I prefer to take my time instead of answering ill-considered stuff in a hurry...

THANKS A LOT!!! for the exact link... unfortunately it can't be delivered neither to Germany nor Austria!
But now that I know the label, I'm going to try to somehow get hold of it or a product with equivalent ingredients!

And in regard of the best wound sealing HooahArmy was also very attentive and wrote a detailed post including its exact ingredients, what you have to watch out for and an alternative, even though corn starch seems to be not as effective, but at least a last resort if I really can't find Clotting Powder anywhere here!

@Charliemum that wound sealant definitly sounds nifty



ah i see, mb, i guess my own thoughts on the matter were that both legs looked equally problematic, the stuck exoskeleton immobilizing leg 3 completly, so perhaps if she is strong enough amputating both would be optimal for a future molt, but i see why, considering her age, you proposed to only remove one in order to not unduly weaken her.

@Little Lasi, are those the tarsal claws we can see at the broken end of leg 3 or do you recon the tarsal segment broke off?




Exactly.
Same here i just thought i would mention it so you don't expect any quick responses here on AB. But i guess you could get lucky.

Hello Wolfram1,
also excuse me, that it took me that long to reply, but the last days were very stressful, f.ex. as I have to switch between Germany on the weekends and Austria during working days due to my current job...
But thanks for all your ideas and involvement in the discussion!!!

And yeah, these are the tarsal claws you can see at the end of the old exoskeleton. The new 3rd leg seems to be completely intact, just stuck and therefore also deformed...
Ah and on leg 4 I was able to observe, that despite being deformed and hence not functional, it can be slightly moved and bend, which also holds true for the tarsal claws on it!

Hopefully, I'll be lucky and Volker von Wirth will notice my attempts to contact him, as he probably is flooded with requests about tarantula care...
However, I had the chance to briefly get in touch with him personally and have an interesting talk many years ago during my studies, as, if I remember correctly, he was formerly working at the ZSM in Obermenzing and thus he perhaps vaguely remembers me...

i was honestly more concernd about it getting in the way when she is moving in and out of the cork tube since it is sticking up at such an odd angle and more to the side too, rather then the second layer of exoskeleton, same with the actual molting process. Leg 4 at least looks like it can be held close to the opisthosoma and dragged along. Perhaps that wouldnt be the worst since it would be easier for her to self amputate. Also i wasn't sure if that was a wound at the leg tip, the other one looked whole at least. But i am just thinking aloud and speculating and i wouldn't oppose your argument.

What do you think about rehoming her? I don't think a cork tube is ideal in this situation, a half round or flat that is more accessible and can be visually observed from the backside if needed. Less hight might also be good to avoid her slipping and falling, but on the other hand all that would be quite stressful....

Or you could do away with the arboreal part entirely and offer a more terrestrial setup during the recovery process... what to do?

@Little Lasi have you seen the row of videos by Tom Moran about his Poecilotheria formosa mismolt and parts of it's recovery? Its not a spider as old as yours but it might still be helpful if you haven't.

Yeah, stiffness and the upright angle of the 3rd leg impairing her ability to f.ex. turn upside down or to pull out both sides evenly during the molt or like you wrote to crawl into narrow hides was also one of my main concerns.
That's why I would rather tend to remove the 3rd leg first. Especially, since I talked to another experienced keeper and breeder, you as a fellow German perhaps know too -Claudia Schneider from Zoohaus W&S- who told me, that if she was in my shoes she would probably don't do anything due to the spider's age, except for watching out for really high humidity during the next molt and if she would try to amputate any limb she would also rather choose nr. 3...
However, she also said, that she can't provide any definite advice due to her age and molting issues being a problematic subject in general.

In the context of rehoming her I also find myself in a difficult dilemma! Because if I continue keeping her in her old enclosure, I probably won't be able to monitor her during the molt.
However, rehousing her and putting her in an enclosure in which it's possible to do so by f.ex. changing her corkbark tube into a more accessible hide is going to put her under a huge amount of stress, in particular, as she is already more skittish than her sister (even though they were raised and kept in the completely same way)
Nonetheless I'm considering to put her in a smaller and lower enclosure including a smaller hide so I can better keep an eye on her, but to seal the sides with duct tape and paper/cardboard, so everything is dark and hence she can feel more secure, while I'm capable of lifting it up in case I want to control her state...
Perhaps I make a final decision about this rehousing topic after I have dealt with her leg problems depending on her subsequent fitness and behavior.

And yeah, I have already watched Tom Moran's videos about his P. formosa which had imho much more severe molting issues compared to my P. rufilata, but have to rewatch them to reevaluate his case...
However as far as I can remember he also rehoused her and has put her in a plastic shoe container, removed both pedipalps and I think also some legs and in the end (after 2 bad molts, but a successful 3rd one) she even made it!!! Which gives me some hope (even though his formosa probably was much younger)

But thanks for even doing research about similar cases!!! All you people here are sooo sweet!!!

The thought was considered, but again, circling back to the relative and increasing weakness of the discarded exuvia, if it were to get hung up, IMHO, the balance of probability would be for the tarantula to pull through the hung up molt as opposed to pulling off the leg.


High level thoughts while being rushed by other tasks and without seeing the full enclosure nor knowing the environmental variables throughout the year:

• Keep the corkbark tube, but ensure you can see into it should you need to.
  • Rehousing her will further tax her and force her to use precious resources to web up a new hide which we want her to use for healing, and she is likely to throw up significant web curtains if only allowed a cork flat, reducing visibility even more than keeping her in a round would as she needs even more security in her weakened state.
• Keep her more humid this next molt to reduce her moisture loss from respiration to keep her resources maxed going into the next molt and to further hasten the deterioration of the stuck molt, making it easier for her to deal with.
  • If she will be exposed to temps below 72°F, DON'T increase humidity as wet amplifies cold and these are tropical animals.
  • If her enclosure doesn't have a ventilation pattern that fully circulates and exchanges the internal air volume by promoting the stack effect, DON'T increase humidity as this will only worsen the stagnation, which will tank her health overall.

Hey man,
also thanks again for all your thoughts and ideas and excuse my late response, but I prefer to take my time to properly think through everything and not to answer in a hasty way

So to sum up the autotomy topic, you would definitely remove (at least) one of the 2 legs?
However, you would choose the 3rd and not the 4th, as you think the exuvia becoming increasingly brittle over time and not being directly attached to the new cuticle?

But, in comparison to the 4th, don't you think the 3rd still poses a higher risk for any sort of complications, since it's sticking up in an upright position due to the exuvia on it (no matter how thin and breakable it is) and therefore can f.ex. make it difficult for her to lay down on her back and pull out both sides evenly during molting?

Because not only me, but also Wolfram1 and as you've probably read another experienced keeper (Claudia Schneider who runs the only pet shop in Germany specialized on selling and breeding arachnids) considers the 3rd as more problematic, as she has experienced that limbs which are just deformed, but not stuck in an old molt, can usually be pulled out properly.
Even though she, if in my shoes, wouldn't change anything due to the tarantula's high age...


And in the context of altering her enclosure or rehousing her and conditions during the molting process...

• how shall I achieve this? As her corkbark tube is quite high and it's very difficult up to impossible to monitor or even reach her if she webs up the opening and molts somewhere near the bottom of the tube. (I can also add a pic of her current home, so it's easier to assess for you)
• Therefore I'm considering to put her in a smaller and lower container with an also smaller but more accessible hide, but to seal the sides with duct tape and paper/cardboard. So it remains dark except when I lift it briefly to control her state
• I overall keep her very humid, with a constantly filled water dish, while normally also well ventilated and only restrict air circulation a little bit when molting is imminent by putting wet paper towels on the upper wire meshes so humidity shouldn't be an issue... The ambient temperatures in her enclosure are between 23°C/73,4°F and 25°C/77°F, but as higher temperatures also raise metabolic rates and warmer air can also store more humidity I'm thinking to slightly increase the temperature during her molting period.

Back and (slightly) better than every before, it's... HooahArmy!

Thank you very much for blowing the conch, folks. This is an interesting post that likewise has my worries for the senior T in need. Should amputation come to be, there are some options for wound sealing. One of my favorites is...
BleedStop/Curicyn/QuikClot! Find this online or at a pharmacy. These are availible to me at my workplace and work like a charm on my Ts and unfortunately me. Its ingredients are bentonite clay, potassium aluminum sulfate, kaolin, and other natrual stuff and it does not burn, sting, or irritate wounds while stopping bleeding in the literal milisecond it touches blood or hemolymph. When set, it forms a clay-like 'shell' as a form of an artifical scab which natrually falls off once the wound begins to heal. On my Ts, I've seen the stuff stick on for about a week to a month before it pops off, the T acting as if nothing was wrong while it was on. The wound was always natrually sealled beneath when the 'shell' came off.

Another good one in a pinch is Corn Starch
In case blood clotting powder can't be found in your local area, corn starch is an oldie but goodie in the T raising world. It's fine powder consistency allows it to bind quickly to the region and form a clot. It does not set as solid as blood clotting powder and can be messy and hard to apply.

Here are some general tips for powders and injuries: How Do I Put Clotting Powder on my T Pal!?
1. Study the injury whether it be a abdomen rupture or amputation.
Give the T an hour or so to seal the wound by itself if the wound doesn't look too bad. Most Ts can clot on their own without help. If you see the leaking hemolyph as notably less than the start, your pal may be okay. Check him/her again in another hour for bleeding and/or odd behaviors.
2. Ready your Powder
In case you homie has a notable wound or isn't okay, get your tools ready. I highly recommend gloves, long sleeves, and goggles/mask for any person with a new world because a cloud of dust is scary to the critter. Have your powder ready along with small spoons, popsicle sticks, and a straw.
3. Sprinkle Or Blow
Is it a mid leg wound? Sprinkle your dust on a small spoon and try to coax your pal to dip the stub into it.
Is it a full amputation? Apply the dust to a small spoon to hold near your bud and try to use a popsicle stick to scoop it on, or lightly blow a tad towards the wound from the spoon with your straw
Body/ Abdomen Wound? Based on where it is, you may try the spoon n' scoop method or the straw method.
4. Be a Good Nurse
After applying the stuff, routinely check the wound every hour for a tad, then every day. Assess your buddy's behavior. Add more powder if needed.

PRO TIP: No wound powder or cornstarch? Try another starch or flour. Don't use powdered sugar as this one guy (now gone) off YouTube once did. Sugars offer food for bacteria and mold growth, and small insects too, which is a big HECK NO.

Hey HooahArmy,
thanks a lot for your efforts of posting such detailed information on this cool wound sealing option(s) that has been completely new to me!!!

As you've probably read, the "Biolife Woundseal powder" @Charliemum recommended and keeps in her emergency kit unfortunately can't be delivered to my place.

However, I googled your favourite BleedStop/Curicyn/QuikClot and found this brand on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/126616156218 for only US $10.90 (and huray they're shipping to Germany, hopefully it doesn't take them too long) and also on amazon, but there it costs approx. US $70!!! (even if I wouldn't mind the price in the case of my beloved granny P)...
Is this the same brand you're using?
As it contains the same main ingredients (98% bentonite clay and 2% potassium aluminium sulfate) but no kaolin or anything else.
The other blood stop powders I could find on the web either also contain mainly bentonite clay, but with other ingredients (such as corydalis extract as an analgesic, but I don't know if its good for tarantulas) or completely different ingredients or they aren't listed...

And as you seem like a keeper with a lot of experience in general, could you also tell me your thoughts how you would proceed in my case?
(in short: concerning her legs 1.) do nothing due to autotomy problems being very likely considering her age?; 2.) amputation by autotomy induction > only 1 and which leg or both? how, to most likely achieve a successful autotomy on the coxa? or 3.) something else? and 4.) would you alter the set-up of her current enclosure or even rehouse her for the next molt?, for more details and photos just look at the beginning of the thread)

No, I was wrong, eBay doesn't send the blood clotting powder to Germany/Austria...

Gonna ask about it in a pharmacy tomorrow, but I'm not very optimistic that I'll get it there, as I've already asked a friend from the medical about it today and he didn't know it.
So in the worst case I will only be able to get the expensive version from Amazon :-/

 

[Little Lasi]

No, I was wrong, eBay doesn't send the blood clotting powder to Germany/Austria...

Gonna ask about it in a pharmacy tomorrow, but I'm not very optimistic that I'll get it there, as I've already asked a friend from the medical sector about it today and he didn't know it.
So in the worst case I will only be able to get the expensive version from Amazon :-/

 

[HooahArmy]

No, I was wrong, eBay doesn't send the blood clotting powder to Germany/Austria...

Gonna ask about it in a pharmacy tomorrow, but I'm not very optimistic that I'll get it there, as I've already asked a friend from the medical sector about it today and he didn't know it.
So in the worst case I will only be able to get the expensive version from Amazon :-/

Your location may have a different name to the blood clotting powders. You may save a photo of the other stuff and show it to your pharmacy, or ask if they have an alternative or similar. You can also research 'blood clotting powder' in your region and see what varieties come up, unless you already have.
Best of luck!

 

[Little Lasi]

Your location may have a different name to the blood clotting powders. You may save a photo of the other stuff and show it to your pharmacy, or ask if they have an alternative or similar. You can also research 'blood clotting powder' in your region and see what varieties come up, unless you already have.
Best of luck!

Thanks man, I'm for sure gonna ask the pharmacist about it or something similar... and if they have nothing that appears to have the same properties I think I won't hesitate and order it from amazon.
As according to the indicated delivery date it should be here in about 10 days and I found another seller who "only" ;-) wants US$ 57 for it.

Ah and I don't wanna bother you, but I would be very interested which course of action you would take and/or if you have any other recommendations for my case?

 

[HooahArmy]

Thanks man, I'm for sure gonna ask the pharmacist about it or something similar... and if they have nothing that appears to have the same properties I think I won't hesitate and order it from amazon.
As according to the indicated delivery date it should be here in about 10 days and I found another seller who "only" ;-) wants US$ 57 for it.

Ah and I don't wanna bother you, but I would be very interested which course of action you would take and/or if you have any other recommendations for my case?

In my personal opnion (others will have other), I'm considering the 3rd leg first, especially since it was noted to be in an odd upright position that would indeed affect the T's ability to lay on her back and attempt a future molt. If you decide on this, assess how your buddy does with the missing limb before working on the 4th.

Yep, US $57 is way too much for clotting powder. I'm sure you'll be able to find an alternative.Some brands out there I'm researching are BleedStop, BleedStop Pet, WoundSeal, Celox's Granular Hemostatic Granules, and HaemoCer (German brand).
I also talked to a fellow soldier of mine who is a hardcore natrualist. He mixes one part each of cornstarch, baking flour, and baking soda and swears it works for him on his month-plus wilderness 'retreats' and even on his bird and dog.The bird, the dog, and the guy are all still alive; this could be a interesting option which may work better than cornstarch alone.