New Velvet Worms!

[wizentrop]

I understand what you are saying, but that's not true. The goal is conservation is to protect not a single species, but an entire ecosystem. You have to look at the bigger picture here.
As long as there is a pet trade, there will always be a desire for something new and exciting. This keeps the gears of the poaching machine permanently lubricated, as well as the cashflow coming in. Collection from the wild might stop for some species, but will continue for others. It's great that the collection of wild L.parahybana has stopped. But let's look at a more recent example. 10 years ago, no one even heard about Typhochlaena seladonia, everyone was happy with their blue Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens. As soon as something new shows up, there is a harvest of animals from the wild for at least the next decade. You have to be honest with yourself - all the animals in the pet trade originate from wild caughts. It takes years for them to establish in captive breeding (during which the poaching continues), and I'm saying this as someone who established captive breedings of new species in research labs and the pet hobby.

 

[SonsofArachne]

I understand what you are saying, but that's not true. The goal is conservation is to protect not a single species, but an entire ecosystem. You have to look at the bigger picture here.
As long as there is a pet trade, there will always be a desire for something new and exciting. This keeps the gears of the poaching machine permanently lubricated, as well as the cashflow coming in. Collection from the wild might stop for some species, but will continue for others. It's great that the collection of wild L.parahybana has stopped. But let's look at a more recent example. 10 years ago, no one even heard about Typhochlaena seladonia, everyone was happy with their blue Chromatopelma cyaneopubescens. As soon as something new shows up, there is a harvest of animals from the wild for at least the next decade. You have to be honest with yourself - all the animals in the pet trade originate from wild caughts. It takes years for them to establish in captive breeding (during which the poaching continues), and I'm saying this as someone who established captive breedings of new species in research labs and the pet hobby.

Of course protecting habitat is the #1 priority, that should go without saying. But the pet trade is not going to go away, it has been around since pretty much the beginning of civilization. And the laws against smuggling wildlife are ineffective and sometimes even detrimental to the wildlife they are meant to protect by driving up prices and prohibiting captive breeding. It's funny you bring up Typhochlaena seladonia as captive breeding in Europe has resulted in a drop in prices and if the same had been allowed in the US, prices (and demand for wild caught specimens) would decrease here too. As you say it can take years establish captive breeding, so it should be started as soon as possible rather than wait while more and more animals are smuggled, relying on ineffective laws to be enforced by often corrupt officials, laws that have never really worked. Fortunately countries like Mexico are starting to allow captive breeding of their T's for export, rather than rely on the outdated, ineffectual methods of the past. Hopefully more countries will follow suit, because this may be the only chance some of these species have.

 

[wizentrop]

Reading your reply, I think you proved my point. Thank you.
I don't want to hijack this thread (but we can open a new one for the sake of the discussion). I'm happy for @velvetundergrowth for his newly acquired animals and wish them good luck. They're great fun to work with.

 

[velvetundergrowth]

I don't want to hijack this thread (but we can open a new one for the sake of the discussion). I'm happy for @velvetundergrowth for his newly acquired animals and wish them good luck. They're great fun to work with.

It's certainly an issue I'd like to see discussed, in another thread

Thanks for the kind wishes In an unbelievable stroke of luck I found the previously assumed dead 6th velvet earlier today while potting up an orchid.
I had only found 5 of the 6 upon receiving them and foraging through the moss they were packed in. I assumed one had perished on the long journey and had become the typical difficult-to-spot string of black mush. I had anticipated at least one unfortunate loss so I wasn't too upset. I put the live moss used for packing with some other spare moss and didn't touch it until today.

Earlier on I was repotting an orchid and had mixed some of that same moss with bark chips as a medium for the plant to grow in. After potting up the flower I placed the pot in a tub of water a couple of inches deep to soak the bark chips. I went off for a while and when I came back my heart almost stopped - there was a tiny velvet worm, much smaller than the others, curled up on the surface of the water. It hadn't broken the surface and was just sitting there folded over. I scooped it out and was shocked when it started moving about and crawling around like normal. I quickly put it with the group and it tucked itself away without hesitation.
The tiny velvet worm had concealed itself in it's packing moss so well that I completely missed it despite what I'd thought was vigorous searching! It had somehow survived a whole week being exposed to the dry, cool climate of my conservatory with only some barely moist moss to shelter it. Even after these low temps (as low as 7°c) and dangerously dry conditions the worm had managed to survive being placed inside a vented pot and submerged for almost an hour!
While I feel like a fool for missing the worm when I received the group, I can't help but be overjoyed to see the velvet safe and in seemingly good condition.

I think this is also good evidence that E. barbadensis definitely isn't as sensitive as some of the other Onchophorans previously kept in captivity, as @SonsofArachne will be pleased to hear

 

[SonsofArachne]

Reading your reply, I think you proved my point. Thank you.
I don't want to hijack this thread (but we can open a new one for the sake of the discussion). I'm happy for @velvetundergrowth for his newly acquired animals and wish them good luck. They're great fun to work with.

I see, when you can't back up what you say with facts, just say "I'm right and you wrong", gotcha. Except you're not right, but feel free to continue believe whatever you want, with nothing to back it up. That seems to be the way of the world these days. I do agree we need to stop hijacking this thread, but starting a new one would be pointless.

 

[wizentrop]

@velvetundergrowth what kind of substrate do you use for them? You'll see that if the substrate contains loose particles, the onychophorans will find ways to squeeze themselves into tiny spaces and disappear (yet they will still be in the box). Be alert if changing substrate or redecorating.
I had a container that housed a group of 10 adults, but I didn't like the setup. I harvested the ones that I could find (10 parents+some babies), and rehoused them. And even today, a few months later, I still find babies in the old container, apparently they did very well there and produced more babies than I thought. They hide between the coco fibre and inside the moss.

 

[velvetundergrowth]

@velvetundergrowth what kind of substrate do you use for them? You'll see that if the substrate contains loose particles, the onychophorans will find ways to squeeze themselves into tiny spaces and disappear (yet they will still be in the box). Be alert if changing substrate or redecorating.
I had a container that housed a group of 10 adults, but I didn't like the setup. I harvested the ones that I could find (10 parents+some babies), and rehoused them. And even today, a few months later, I still find babies in the old container, apparently they did very well there and produced more babies than I thought. They hide between the coco fibre and inside the moss.

Right now it's an equal mix coco, sand and vermiculite but this is not what I'm going to be housing them on long-term. I will be moving them into their new setup next week hopefully so I'll be extra, extra careful when transplanting them. I'll also be leaving their current container untouched for a while before dismantling it on the off-chance that they may have produced offspring by then and are hiding in tiny crevices.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

I always keep the soil I remove just in case, but I also dig through it a few times before replacing it. I also find misting it and compacting it in layers helps reduce crevices where they can hide. It will be one of my edits on the caresheet when I add new tips.

Another note... If an adult female is in rough shape and dying seperate her into another container with high humidity and moss. I find they tend to 'abort' young before they die and these sometimes survive as they are not too premature. They'll have a rough few days, but begin to perk up if conditions are stable.

 

[MasterOogway]

I absolutely MUST get some of these some day for my Insect Zoo. Just hands down my absolute favorite invertebrate. How does this species handle high temps, say near 80? That was what doomed my last peripatus colony, just couldn't keep them cool enough. I need a species of these that does well at elevated temperatures :/

 

[Hoolia]

I LOVE velvet worms! I'll be keeping tabs on them, I'd love to get a colony of my own in the future! They're so darn cool! Wish you the best for breeding for all of our sakes.

 

[velvetundergrowth]

Just a quick update guys. The Velvets seem to be doing well so far. They are taking small crickets without any issue and seeing them "swarm" a downed prey item is really fascinating.
I check on their enclosure nightly before bed at around 1AM and they only seem to venture out and explore after a thorough misting. Most of the time they remain huddled together in one large or two smaller groups beneath pieces of rotten wood.

The permanent enclosure nears completion and I will be sure to post about it once finished

 

[AbraxasComplex]

I absolutely MUST get some of these some day for my Insect Zoo. Just hands down my absolute favorite invertebrate. How does this species handle high temps, say near 80? That was what doomed my last peripatus colony, just couldn't keep them cool enough. I need a species of these that does well at elevated temperatures :/

They are fine at 80'F. This is a tropical species from Barbados. I'm going to send you a PM as I may do an export to the US soon.


And @velvetundergrowth I'm glad they are doing well.

 

[wizentrop]

I had a container that housed a group of 10 adults, but I didn't like the setup. I harvested the ones that I could find (10 parents+some babies), and rehoused them. And even today, a few months later, I still find babies in the old container, apparently they did very well there and produced more babies than I thought. They hide between the coco fibre and inside the moss.

I thought I should update on this - yesterday I found 3 more babies in the old box. This tells me that either 1) I am going blind if I missed them up until now; or 2) I might have forgotten a female in there, that somehow without any care or feeding for almost an entire month still gives birth to perfectly healthy babies.
Never throw away old substrate, you guys.

 

[Vanisher]

Well, the moment has finally come and I am ecstatic to once again be in possession of some Velvet Worms! It's been over 5 years since last I kept these marvelous nocturnal predators, as I'm sure many of you know these are almost non-existent in the hobby and are famously difficult to procure. But, thanks to fellow AB member @AbraxasComplex, I have a small group of Barbados Browns (Epiperipatus barbadensis), larger and more colorful than the Peripatoides novaezealandiae more "commonly" offered. But perhaps the biggest plus for this tropical species is their tolerance of warmer conditions than their Kiwi counterparts. No wine cooler or chilly cellar needed here!



For now I have them in a small terrarium with rotten wood, moss, liverwort and some other tiny plants, but as they become more established I will be upgrading them to something a bit more high-end.

Now for some photos. Please excuse my less-than-stunning shots, my camera is out of action and I'm stuck with an awful Huwawei smartphone cam...

Anyway, I hope you guys will find them as fascinating and beautiful as I do!

Predators you say! What do they eat?

 

[velvetundergrowth]

Predators you say! What do they eat?

They are the snipers of the invert world! I feed mine on small/medium crickets. They emerge from their hiding places at night and sneak about silently, feeling for vibrations with their antennae. Once they "scope" their prey they launch twin jets of liquid adhesive from their modified front legs, which rapidly solidifies and glues the prey item to the ground. The Onychophoran will then breach a hole in the exoskeleton with it's mouthparts and feast on the prey item like a spider.

They also occasionally shoot their slime when disturbed.

 

[Scythemantis]

The goal is conservation is to protect not a single species, but an entire ecosystem. You have to look at the bigger picture here.

To be honest I am tired of hearing this...it's not realistic anymore.

Many environments are doomed and are never ever going to come back, no matter what we do. Many species will only continue to exist in captivity and as far as I'm concerned we need to consider that good enough because it's all we're going to get. Almost everything that lives in tropical rainforest is probably doomed to either vanish from existence or be kept artificially, so we may as well cut our losses and drop this borderline spiritual idea that our only goal can be the restoration of whole ecosystems. Just not gonna happen at this point...

 

[schmiggle]

Almost everything that lives in tropical rainforest is probably doomed to either vanish from existence or be kept artificially.

Naw. The Amazon, for example, has actually grown over the past fifty years in net, because people ranch smaller areas and fertilize them. Secondary forest is almost as biodiverse as primary forest. In many other areas, deforestation has slowed down. Not all of them, but as countries transition to higher levels of industrialization they often switch to converting smaller areas of highly productive land.

 

[SonsofArachne]

To be honest I am tired of hearing that a species is only truly being "conserved" if the end goal is to restore it in its natural habitat.

That is nothing but a pipe dream at this point. Many environments are doomed and are never ever going to come back. Not ever. Many species will only continue to exist in captivity and as far as I'm concerned we need to consider that good enough because it's all we're going to get. Almost everything that lives in tropical rainforest is probably doomed to either vanish from existence or be kept artificially.

Sad, but true. If global warming continues unabated humans will be lucky to survive it. The loss of animal species will be catastrophic.

 

[Scythemantis]

Naw. The Amazon, for example, has actually grown over the past fifty years in net, because people ranch smaller areas and fertilize them. Secondary forest is almost as biodiverse as primary forest. In many other areas, deforestation has slowed down. Not all of them, but as countries transition to higher levels of industrialization they often switch to converting smaller areas of highly productive land.

Unfortunately, that doesn't solve the climate change and pollution that, regardless of forest acreage, is already plummeting the populations of most terrestrial species including what we used to think were some of the hardiest of insects. Insect collection from even the "healthiest" rainforests has shown a population drop by 50-80% over the past three decades. Maybe there's a point it will plateau for a lot of species, but there's no doubt we're looking at millions of extinctions in our lifetimes.

 

[schmiggle]

Maybe there's a point it will plateau for a lot of species, but there's no doubt we're looking at millions of extinctions in our lifetimes.

Probably so, but three counterpoints:

• There will exist climate refugia
• Most tropical rainforests don't suffer from heavy pollution
• Most of those animals are ones people don't want to and/or cannot keep

That last one's probably the biggest issue--most species aren't charismatic, and many species are highly specialized. Someone probably could keep them, but there are so many that that's not really a reasonable conservation method.