New Snakes And Pics!

[Baphomet]

Re: dispelling some myths...

Originally posted by Phillip
During this time I have learned not only from my own experiences but from chatting regularily with several breeders with many more years in it than myself like Applegate, Hollister and many others. They don't heat their Greybands either and do very well with them. Phil

Uh...I don't want to cause a fuss, but I just talked to Bob Applegate (<no non-business phone numbers -MI>) and Gerold Merker: (<no non-business phone numbers -MI>) today, and they are quite suprised that they informed anyone NOT to heat Alterna.

I have visited both Gerold (Placerville, CA) and Bob (Campo, CA) on numerous occasions, and believe me, they DO have state of the art facilities...and all thier snake cages are outfitted with heat-tape & ambient air temperature(s) complete thier facility(ies).

Enclosed is a photo of Gerold Merkers breeding facility...you will notice the Freedom Breeder rack with heat tape channels in the rear.

Here is an excerp from an article written by Gerold Merker regarding maintaining the proper heat gradient(s) of Alterna:

"What temperatures should the gray-banded
kingsnake be maintained at?"

One of the most important considerations in cage design is creating a thermal gradient in the cage so that the snake has a range of temperatures from which to choose. This easiest way to accomplish this is by placing a heat tape in a routed groove under one side of the cage. To ensure that the heat tape maintains a constant temperature, a good pulse-proportional thermostat, such as those designed by Helix Magnetics® or Micro-climate®, is a vital necessity. These thermostats maintain a constant temperature (+/- 1 °F), thus preventing the cage bottoms from becoming overly warm. Our temperature regimen ranges from 65 °F at the cool end to 88 °F at the warm end of the cage. These temperatures are maintained during spring, summer, and fall.

 

[Phillip]

As I tried to point out...

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough for some of you guys but I'll try again. If you look back over my posts you will see that I said a constant 80 is fine for Greybands and I also said that room temp is variable as some folks keep their rooms hotter or cooler. Also I did not directly say anything about Merker at all so where you came up with his name I have no clue. As for Applegate keeping heat tape on his racks yes he does but he also doesn't have a room that stays a constant 80. If it did he wouldn't need this extra heat source. And as far as Applegates set up goes his snakes are kept in connected 5 tank units with heat only at one point so each level is a different heat. Another interesting tidbit is that he keeps his kings together ( a supposed no no in the king world ) and also uses sand as substrate ( yet another supposed no no ). I don't point these facts out to make it seem as if he is keeping them wrong it is in fact quite the opposite he takes very good care of them and does extremely well. My point is that several of the set in stone snake rules are not always true. How do I know this from seeing him in a chat room I frequent several times a week and chatting with him often. The question has been brought up and he has assured me that 80 is fine as well as agreeing that if kept that warm supplimental heat isn't needed. Again as you put it not to cause a fuss but I'm not going to argue with folks who haven't kept much less bred enough snakes to know what they are actually talking about and if you keep in mind what I said it was actually that the blanket statement of all snakes needing heat was wrong. Sorry if I come across as blasting anyone but like I said I have been doing this for a long time and really get tired of seeing newbies who happen to read an article in Reptiles and suddenly think they know something try to argue with someone who has actually done it. As I have tried to make clear I am not attempting to rip anyone or talk down to anyone nor am I labeling all of you as clueless newbies. I just don't care for blanket statements saying that all of them must meet these requirements since that is simply not true. My feeling on the subject is however this. When you can match my hatch rate then perhaps you may be onto something I don't already know but until then save the quotes from the golden books reptile keepers guide.

Phil

 

[Bry]

No comment.

Bry

 

[Deathreaver]

So much Fuss over two snake??

Wow, when I posted these pic, I never knew there would be so many arguements. I've always been good at starting them though =D ;P

I could see how people have conflicting views. I know some peeps that would use a reptile heating rock or lamp for anything with scales, and then again some poeple perfer to make the whole house the same temp that the snake needs. Oh well, I guess as long as the snake is alive healthy (still biting me) and active it is all good. =D

 

[Bry]

Yeah, everyone has their own ways of heating their herps. I just disapprove of heat rocks, because they produce hot spots and can easily burn a reptile. It's like when you put one hand in cold water, and one in hot water. Your brain is gonna average out a middle temp that is comfortable for you to keep holding your hand in the hot water. But when you take them out, you'll have burned the hand that was in hot water.

Bry

 

[Phillip]

I totally agree...

The heat rock thing is for sure bad. I've had snakes given to me that were burned pretty badly by them before. You would think they would move but it seems as if they can't tell it's too hot for them. Heat pads and lights are much better and safer.

Phil

 

[Bry]

A buddy of mine got in a snake that he could not identify. The snake was burned on its belly, and its markings were barely visible. He had to ask the guy what it was, it was a ball python. Apparently, the snake had wrapped itself around the ceramic element of the light dome, which was inside the cage and burned itself beyond recognition. I'm surprised the snake didn't die.

Bry

 

[Deathreaver]

I do agree with the heat rock being bad. Anything that produces heat and comes in durect connection with an animal is bad. They might as well use a piece of hot rod iron, they will get the same effect.

 

[Baphomet]

Yeah...pretty amazing that even though ZooMed, a leading manufacturer of "hot rocks" often warns of the dangers of using hot rocks with snakes...yet how many still insist on using them.

But I would also like to point out, I have seen many severe thermal burns on snakes from those who use UTH (Under Tank Heaters) as well.

Too many that think "larger is better"...not so. If you have a 10 gallon RT tank, do NOT believe that purchasing a UTH designed for a 40+ gallon tank is "better". Stick to the manufacturers guidelines (and your specific snakes' requirements) before purchasing a UTH.

Most, not all, UTH are designed to create a "hot spot" 10° - 15° warmer than the ambient air temperature of an enclosure. As you can imagine, a cage that has a ambient temperature of 84° will have a "hot spot" of between 94° - 99°, much higher in the case of Boids who require higher temps than Colubrids.

One of the most overlooked items for many herpers is a quality, digital thermometer with a probe for measuring the exact temperature(s) throughout the animals enclosure.

Many of the cheap, stick-on $2.00 thermometers that attach to the back of a tank are not reliable, and can only measure (to only a minimal amount of accuracy), the ambient air temperature of a enclosure; not the substrate where most snakes call home.

"The heat rock thing is for sure bad. I've had snakes given to me that were burned pretty badly by them before."

Yeah, I see them come into the shop all the time with severe thermal burns...many times the ventral surface is breached, which can lead to secondary bacterial infections and/or death if veterinary care is not provided.

Many do not realize that thermal burns also causes varying degrees of fluid loss as well; hereagain requiring veterinary care.

...shall we now discuss the "Geeze...I didn't know a mouse/rat could chew up my snake so bad."-type of owners?

 

[Reitz]

This is one of those "Gee, I had no idea a rat could chew up a snake so bad" questions. When I was much younger I kept a red-tail boa. I watched it hatch when I was 11, they held it for me for a year, handled it every day, then at 12 I bought it. I had it for over 8 years, I guess. A local breeder really liked his colors and I was moving so I sold him

At any rate, I never once fed it anything that didn't move. I was told (and back then I believed what I was told!) that they wouldn't eat anything that didn't move. I made sure to always watch him eat, and I never had a problem. I also kept him thin (healthy, but not fat), and as such fed him small prey. For example, when he was 9 ft. I fed him two small rats a week instead of a chicken, bunny, or large rat. I never once had a problem with the prey attacking him, and he always took the food within the first 60 sec. of it hitting the cage floor. I know that herp keepers know better now, but it seems to me that he liked the situation and could handle himself just fine.

So I guess my question is, is live prey always a no no? (not that it matters, I'm not much interested in herps)

Chris

 

[Bry]

It's 4am, and I don't really feel like stepping up on my soapbox. But in a nutshell, feeding live is a big no-no. Of course, there are some rare cases where snakes just will not accept anything else. Snakes in the wild will eat carrion just as well as live ones they find. Mice/rats can do some pretty horrible things to a snake, a well-placed bite can kill a snake quickly before you have anything to do about it. Here's a link to my post on the last page on what can happen to a snake.

What a mouse/rat can do to your snake

Bry

 

[Deathreaver]

I knew that live food could hurt or even kill snakes, but I was thinking like Reitz, "Is live prey always a no no?" I normally feed my snakes pinkys (though I've only had them for a few days), but the other day I asked pategirl the same question, Geez I'm glad I didn't get any ideas. Thanks ya'll for your help....

 

[Baphomet]

I knew that live food could hurt or even kill snakes, but I was thinking like Reitz, "Is live prey always a no no?"

It all depends. If you are talking about pinkies, fuzzy's, or even weaned, then live is fine. It is when you start getting into the hoppers and larger that one has to be extremely careful. A medium-sized mouse can do a lot of damage, and rats even more so.

In the case of larger Boids where large/jumbo rats and rabbits are concerned, you are definately tempting fate if you throw those in while still alive. They should, at the very least, be "stunned" before feeding to a snake.

A rodent will, by design, bite, chew, scratch, whatever it takes to try and escape when it is being constricted by a snake. These injuries can be quite severe. Let a food item like that loose when a snake isn't interested in feeding, and it will turn the tables on the hunted in a heartbeat.

I do admit, it is interesting to see a large food item taken while still alive, but I would strongly suggest switching over to frozen/freshly killed when the food item is mature/large enough to defend itself.

 

[Bry]

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. Pinkies and fuzzies are no big deal. Anything larger that has opened its eyes and developed teeth is risky at best. In the link I posted above, I talked about a certain Dumeril's boa that refused to eat anything but live rat pups. What concerns me is when she gets larger, she's going to be in greater danger with the live adult rats. Not to mention that she doesn't really seem to know how to wrap a rat correctly without human assistance.

Bry