New puppy!

[Big Red TJ]

I should have phrased that - gamebred dogs. A dog can't be a gamedog until proven in the pit - which is illegal in the US (which everyone knows, I'm sure lol).

check your PM sorry I am really not a prick really

 

[Teal]

It's all good

For the record - it didn't occur to me until the second page, Big Red, that you are the "Matt" Sarah was talking about LOL So when you were talkin bout a pup and she was talkin bout a pup - I thought yall were talkin bout two different pups LOL

 

[Big Red TJ]

It's all good

For the record - it didn't occur to me until the second page, Big Red, that you are the "Matt" Sarah was talking about LOL So when you were talkin bout a pup and she was talkin bout a pup - I thought yall were talkin bout two different pups LOL

LOL sorry it happens she is a handful the pup I mean I sent you a PM on history of dogs from the past hit me up if ya want more info I got some great books..

 

[Teal]

I have - and have read - all of Stratton's book, and many many others I research peds for a hobby, mostly from my favourite lines but I'm expanding my horizons recently to include any ped I come across.

I'd really love to see peds on your dogs if you can get ahold of them

 

[-Sarah-]

She's a lovely pup... but PLEASE continue to do your research.

It is NOT "all in how you raise them." If the dam of these pups was shot for attacking someone - that is a genetic fault, and is likely to be passed on to puppies. Temperament is 90% genetic and 10% training - you can NOT have a sound, well trained proper dog unless they have a solid, sound genetic foundation to build upon. All the socialization and training in the world, isn't going to change the genes your dog inherited from her sire, dam, and grandsire and granddam. Just be aware of the the signs of temperament flaws, and don't make excuses for your dog. In the old days, it wasn't an issue because breeders culled (meaning, killed) dogs that didn't have proper temperament... but these days, with Joe Blow breeding dogs and not giving a crap about their temperament, you have to pay attention. I had to put down an 11 month old puppy for being "off" - when I was later able to track down where she came from, her dam was a complete basketcase of fearful aggression, but since the "breeder" believed it was "all in how you raise them" he didn't think the dam was passing on crappy genetics to the puppies.

No, I fully understand APBT genetics for all we know, her mother could have died fighting. I'm not going to take the word of some shady character right off the street.. I'm not saying I wouldn't trust someone, but it really kind of depends on the situation.. if you would have witnessed the situation, I know you would most likely agree with me that something was "off" there I'm just glad we rescued at least one of the puppies. I feel horrible for the other pup.

and I won't even comment on your "looked like a dog fighter" stereotype. Actual dog fighting is NOT that common, people are just super paranoid. The guy was probably just a sleezebag with dogs he thought made him look tough.

Well, since he was throwing out fighting dogs' names that raised a red flag. I'm not accusing him of being a fighter, but I can't explain it :? He just seemed to know a little too much about fighting and threw in the mother was "shot" for attacking his neighbor's kids, I just got this weird feeling that something wasn't right about the whole thing. He could be, he might not be.. it just raised some red flags with me. I don't believe in dog-fighting and he seemed to be pushing it in order to get rid of the pups. Maybe that's just how he does it: lists them on craigslist and starts throwing out names to make his pups look better in the eyes of someone who has knowledge of dog-fighting?

 

[night4now]

She is beautiful!!! I am soooo jealous!

 

[snappleWhiteTea]

Temperament is 90% genetic and 10% training

true..kinda.

 

[Teal]

Then, if you met me, you would accuse ME of being a dog fighter... I know A LOT about dog fighting, and could easily throw out the names of some top pit dogs. I also have 'dog fighting paraphanelia' - springpole, flirtpole, treadmill, breaksticks, books on the breed's history and dog fighting, antibiotics and stitching materials, etc. I am also pierced and tattooed But I have all these things because I work my dogs, and I am truly dedicated to the REAL American pit bull terrier.

True, something may have been 'off' with the guy... but that doesn't automatically point at him bein a dog fighter

Anyone who TRULY is into APBTs must know about and atleast respect the history of the breed, even if they don't agree with it... our dogs wouldn't be what they are - especially the "loving, wonderful family dog" part - without the strict breeding standards of old time dogmen

And maybe my percentages on genetics are a little flexible.. maybe 70/30?
But what it comes down to - is that a sound dog can't be messed up no matter what you do to it (including beating the hell out of it, starving it near to death, etc.), and an unsound dog WILL be messed up no matter what you do to it (including all the best training and the most socialization ever).

 

[Exo]

Why would you want books on dog fighting......no offense, but the more I read your posts, the more suspicious I get.

 

[wayne the pain]

"Rehab" is complete crap and is a term coined by that idiot Cesar Millan - whose work is total bull. Do you know how many dogs are killed in his pack when the camera are off? I DO.

C'mon dont tell me half the story.
i dont know, but would like to know more, PM me if you dont want to post it here.

 

[-Sarah-]

Then, if you met me, you would accuse ME of being a dog fighter... I know A LOT about dog fighting, and could easily throw out the names of some top pit dogs. I also have 'dog fighting paraphanelia' - springpole, flirtpole, treadmill, breaksticks, books on the breed's history and dog fighting, antibiotics and stitching materials, etc. I am also pierced and tattooed But I have all these things because I work my dogs, and I am truly dedicated to the REAL American pit bull terrier.

Antibiotics and stitching materials? How hard do you work your dogs? Every pet owner should have a little first-aid kit for their pet, but, that sounds a little extreme. I'm not one to point fingers at people with tattoos and piercings and call them freaks, I have piercings and am planning on getting tattoos.

True, something may have been 'off' with the guy... but that doesn't automatically point at him bein a dog fighter

I'm not judging books by their cover, so to speak. I can smell a rat from a mile away, and this guy wasn't smelling too good. Like I said, any normal person that would have met him would have been suspicious.

Anyone who TRULY is into APBTs must know about and atleast respect the history of the breed, even if they don't agree with it... our dogs wouldn't be what they are - especially the "loving, wonderful family dog" part - without the strict breeding standards of old time dogmen

And maybe my percentages on genetics are a little flexible.. maybe 70/30?
But what it comes down to - is that a sound dog can't be messed up no matter what you do to it (including beating the hell out of it, starving it near to death, etc.), and an unsound dog WILL be messed up no matter what you do to it (including all the best training and the most socialization ever).

I fully understand the history of the breed - I don't respect nor agree with dogfighting. I also don't plan on beating the hell out of my dog or nearly starving it to death. I respect the breed, not the fact it can be abused to the brink of death and still be breathing.

If I had known my thread would have turned into a full-blown hijacked debate on dog-fighting and genetics I would have thought twice about uploading pics. :wall:

 

[Teal]

Wayne - it's really simple... When the cameras aren't rolling, there are "teams" of folk who are around to "keep the peace" among the dozens of dogs running together... which they don't do very well at all. Daily scuffles and injuries occur, and dogs do die.

Exo - Any book on the history of the breed is going to have information about dog fighting, because that IS the history of the breed. And it's simply foolish to think that if I was fighting my dogs, I'd be talking about it on a public forum... the best lines of APBTs have been confiscated and killed by HSUS and PETA without a bit of reason, under the guise of their breeders being suspected dog fighters. It's a huge paranoia ploy.

Sarah, I live in the country. I could be playing a simple game of fetch with my dog, and my dog could slice their leg open on a rock. My dogs aren't cautious or slow... they are driven and careless and it's ALL about the ball. I've learned not to fetch around trees... one time a ball landed at the base of a tree and my bull terrier hit it so hard she knocked herself out. My APBT had to have a tooth removed because he ran into a boulder and broke it too far down and it would have become infected. These are DOGS, and bulldogs at that.. they aren't fragile, and they don't notice when they are hurt either
Also, living in a multi-dog, and especially a multi-pit bull, household.. scuffles DO occur between dogs. I haven't had a scuffle between my own dogs in awhile, but we have stray dogs and idiots who walk offleash dogs down our rural road (just had this happen the other night in fact, and the dog jumped into my yard when my entire crew was out there).

Just for the record... my supply of materials comes from my vet There's no point in hauling my dog to the vet and having someone else stitch them, when I can get it down quickly at home.

Sorry that I care enough about the breed to hijack your thread.. continue on with your tunnel-visioned ownership now

 

[-Sarah-]

Sarah, I live in the country. I could be playing a simple game of fetch with my dog, and my dog could slice their leg open on a rock. My dogs aren't cautious or slow... they are driven and careless and it's ALL about the ball. I've learned not to fetch around trees... one time a ball landed at the base of a tree and my bull terrier hit it so hard she knocked herself out. My APBT had to have a tooth removed because he ran into a boulder and broke it too far down and it would have become infected. These are DOGS, and bulldogs at that.. they aren't fragile, and they don't notice when they are hurt either

That's when it's time to remove the obvious obstacles - small trees, logs, stumps, rocks, and everything in between. A smart dog owner removes everything they possibly can. Do you recognize and remove the poisonous wild plants, flowers and weeds that can be potentially fatal to dogs? I've been an avid dog owner for years and have owned a variety of breeds. I have never had any trouble. Dogs have a tendency to run into things. My PWD would mow over anything trying to fetch a ball, and she was far from the heavy-bodied breed that a pit is.

Also, living in a multi-dog, and especially a multi-pit bull, household.. scuffles DO occur between dogs. I haven't had a scuffle between my own dogs in awhile, but we have stray dogs and idiots who walk offleash dogs down our rural road (just had this happen the other night in fact, and the dog jumped into my yard when my entire crew was out there).

As much as I love dogs, I'd only keep one pit per household. I would rather give one pitbull a good home than to keep ten of them and run the irresponsible risk of having something happen to them. What's one person against a few full grown pits engaged in a scuffle? Good luck pulling them apart if you aren't prepared.

Just for the record... my supply of materials comes from my vet There's no point in hauling my dog to the vet and having someone else stitch them, when I can get it down quickly at home.

Sorry that I care enough about the breed to hijack your thread.. continue on with your tunnel-visioned ownership now

I didn't ask where you got your first-aid materials :? As long as they come from either a vet or a reliable medical supply place where you can trust the materials are sterile they should be fine. You say you have a multi-pitbull household, you've said yourself that you own dog fighting "paraphernalia", you study the history of the breed as well as dog fighting history, you claim that people should respect the breed's dog fighting history and you live in the rural country?

I have one pitbull puppy. I live in a good part of the city. I don't endorse nor do I own dog-fighting material or "paraphernalia" of any kind. My fiance has been properly keeping this breed for decades.

Tunnel-visioned ownership what a low blow for someone who should be trying to educate people about this breed that already has a poor reputation due to dog-fighting.. instead you're bragging about your breaksticks, extensive knowledge of dog-fighting and your pitbulls injuring themselves.

 

[Teal]

You're obviously not open to any sort of education, which is evidenced by the part where you are hinting around that I am a dog fighter

I am not bragging about anything, other than the fact that my dogs are good working dogs (there IS a link to my website in my signature ya know ) and that I actually KNOW about the breed I own.

The part about me owning "dog fighting paraphernalia" was a joke - I own everything that a proper working dog household owns, but that the HSUS and PETA have deemed to be 'dog fighting paraphernalia' - which is absolutely ridiculous.

I can't remove all the rocks and trees from nine acres of property, and I wouldn't even if I could
A smart dog owner avoids the bigger things, but balls bounce in random directions and dogs doing zoomies are a little out of my control. And it's not just my pit bulls - my bull terrier does more damage than anyone else. If there's nothing to run into, she flips and rolls and does stupid things that way. She hasn't found her "brakes" yet.
My dogs are in top physical form and compete in (legal ) dog sports.

That's why I'm always prepared And "full grown pits" are only up to 50lbs.. and none of MINE are even that large
I've never had an incident in my yard that I wasn't able to handle on my own - and I'm not a large person. All dogs wear collars, and I carry leashes.. if there is a multi-dog scuffle, you leash dogs and tie them to trees and use the breakstick that ANY responsible pit bull owner would have.
Oh but wait, removing all the trees would be the responsible thing to do, right?
If I have dogs that don't get along, they don't go out together. It's not that difficult of a situation to comprehend, really.

Some people are equipped to handle more than one dog. Some aren't.

Honestly, you aren't helping the breed anymore than you don't think I am either :?

You're what we'd call a "pet bull" owner - someone who wants people to pity the breed for the horrible things done to them by humans, so you overcompensate with your own dog by babying it and trying to convince people that "it's all in how you raise them."

It's not a pity party - FACTS are what need to be shared, not bleeding heart syndrome.

 

[-Sarah-]

You're obviously not open to any sort of education, which is evidenced by the part where you are hinting around that I am a dog fighter

I'm not hinting, I'm just quoting what you've said, that's all. If you don't want people accusing you of something, then don't "brag" that you are so well-informed on something that's cruel and illegal. I don't know if you were bragging but that was my first impression of it. That's all I'm saying.

I've never had an incident in my yard that I wasn't able to handle on my own - and I'm not a large person. All dogs wear collars, and I carry leashes.. if there is a multi-dog scuffle, you leash dogs and tie them to trees and use the breakstick that ANY responsible pit bull owner would have.
Oh but wait, removing all the trees would be the responsible thing to do, right?
If I have dogs that don't get along, they don't go out together. It's not that difficult of a situation to comprehend, really.

Some people are equipped to handle more than one dog. Some aren't.

You can own dogs that don't get along, and you can own all the dogs you want. That's your freedom of choice. I personally wouldn't own dogs that don't get along. And that's my choice.

Honestly, you aren't helping the breed anymore than you don't think I am either :?

You're what we'd call a "pet bull" owner - someone who wants people to pity the breed for the horrible things done to them by humans, so you overcompensate with your own dog by babying it and trying to convince people that "it's all in how you raise them."

It's not a pity party - FACTS are what need to be shared, not bleeding heart syndrome.

I'm not asking people to pity the breed, and it does involve with how you raise them. You seem to be more interested in picking apart every single thing I say, just because you think you have more experience with the dogs. That's fine, you go about your life and I'll go about mine. I'm not going to waste my time replying to anything more. At this point I suggest we agree to disagree. You have your opinions and I have mine. It's what makes the world go 'round.

 

[Exo]

It's not a pity party - FACTS are what need to be shared, not bleeding heart syndrome.

Perhaps if people pitied them more they would stop fighting them....

 

[Big Red TJ]

Perhaps if people pitied them more they would stop fighting them....

.......+1...... I agree, people wonder why this breed is being outlawed it is due to bad owners and bad imformation. If the american pit bull terrier is going to have any forseable future it will need an overhaul for it's image in the public eye. Yes they have a fighting PAST, But that is where it needs to remain... just my 2 cents.

 

[Teal]

The fighting history of the breed wouldn't have an impact on its negative image, if people didn't believe that a dog who kills another dog is going after a human next.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - fighting dogs don't bite people!
Purebred APBTs bred down from fighting dogs are THE safest dogs you'll ever meet - in the middle of a fight, you can stick your hands all up in their faces, and they won't even take a second look - it's the other DOG they want. It's one of the many reasons why APBTs make awesome dogs for families with kids... their breeding for bite inhibition with humans, and their higher pain tolerance means they don't care if you yank on them, poke them, etc. because one, it doesn't hurt them like it would hurt another breed, and two, you're a person!

It's generic "pit bulls" bred by people who care more about looks - like winning in the show ring - than temperament who are turning around and biting people.

Not to mention - the general public can't even properly ID the American pit bull terrier. They are a medium breed - meaning 30-50lbs., maybe 60-70 for a LARGE male - with an athletic, slim build. Not quite what you pictured, right? All these stories of "100lb. pit bulls" are loads of crap - you wanna talk about a mixed breed designer mutt? THERE you have it! They are called American Bullies (not American BullDOGS.. separate breed), and they are bred for size, colour, and for status - notice how temperament isn't mentioned?

APBTs are the only breed that, during creation, was culled (meaning, killed) based on the criteria of biting humans!

So if their PAST was still the PRESENT... If the breeding had never strayed from it's original purpose... there would never have been a problem

On the note that dog fighting is cruel...

Do you also believe sighthounds coursing live game is cruel?
Or border collies herding sheep?
Or foxhounds on the hunt?
Or using catch dogs on a hog?
Or small terriers going after vermin?

Dogs bred for a purpose, excel at that purpose. There is not a happier dog on the planet than one doing the job it was bred to do.
Yes, I am saying what you think I am saying it... the dogs enjoy it.

There is a HUGE difference between "dog fighters" of today, and the original dogmen of yesteryear who created the breed. Today's "dog fighters" throw random animals into a ring to watch them kill each other without any conditioning whatsoever. In the old days, it was a sport that required conditioning and matching dogs with similar size/fighting style to determine the stronger dog, and was a sport attended by refined gentlemen.

I'm not a dog fighter. My dogs participate in legal dog sports - such as agility, flyball, weightpull, dock diving, etc. - and are kept in prime condition with materials that organizations like HSUS and PETA have labeled as "dog fighting paraphernalia" in their psychotic attempt to wipe out the entire APBT breed (and, in PETA's case, pet ownership altogether).

I understand that some people can't get past the blood involved... and that the people who can are a rarer bunch these days - but those of us who can, who truly love and see the breed for it's past, present, and hopeful future... we just hope the rest of the world learns to follow suit

Okay, rant over. I've said all I can in my defense, and the defense of the breed.
Sarah - sorry for hijacking your thread and turning it into a huge debate... I know you just wanted comments on your adorable new puppy this breed is my one weakness, where I just can't not say something

 

[Mack&Cass]

Pit bulls are banned here, I don't know enough about dogs to really form an opinion on whether or not it's justified, but personally I don't think it's right. As for dog fighting, I'm not getting into that. Everyone has their own opinions and you all make good points for your cases, but I agree with Sarah that you guys should agree to disagree. Jairi, I'm sure you're not enjoying being indirectly accused of being a dogfighter, and Sarah and Matt I'm sure that the two of you aren't enjoying that your thread that was made to show off your cute new puppy has turned into such a heavy debate. All of you seem pretty set in your beliefs, as you should be, and I don't think that any of Jairi's dogs, nor Matt and Sarah's new puppy are going to be worse off because of the different ways you guys choose to raise them. I'm not picking sides nor am I trying to get in the middle of anything, I just think it's obvious that no one is going to convince any one else that their opinions are right, people will raise their animals however they want to raise them, and whether it's the right way or the wrong way, there's not much we can do but offer what advice we can and leave it at that.

Cass

PS Sarah, your avatar scares the crap out of me. I'm currently reading the book, way scarier than the movie, and the movie gave me nightmares *shudder*

 

[Exo]

Well Teal, from that last rant I think you proved what everyone here was thinking about you.