Nematodes

[MizM]

Guys... Have you even considered the option that nematodes could naturally born in the place you live in? I understand it must be depressing to think about. Like I've said few times before, I've never heard of a nematode case here and there's LOTS of WC tarantulas. We also don't have any kind of tarantulas in the wild, so I think it's logical, we don't have any parasites that commonly attack them.

One could consider that, but it doesn't help in any way with a solution to the problem. Also there is no science to back it up, so it can't be considered fact.

 

[Paramite]

It's definitely not a fact. But I think it tells something that we don't have nematode cases in Europe.

And I know it doesn't bring any solutions... But it's still important thing to consider, as many of us live far away from there and are thinking about these issues when buying tarantulas. Well... it's not an issue to me at all, because I don't buy WC tarantulas anyway, and I only get tarantulas from Germany.

Anyway, I think you got the point.

 

[bodisky]

We need a comparison study done. Do we really know what bacteria/pathogens are present in a normal healthy tarantula? We don't even know if all species carry the same bacteria and/or are susceptible to them. I think it is feasible to believe that OW species and NW species would have different bacteria and are susceptible to different pathogens.

Hello,
Here I am again, breaking my rule.
RIESM started studies on normal bacteria of the T as the first order of business. How can you know what is abnormal if you don't know or understand the normal? Again, bacteria analysis was not my area but I know that Larry Boyd published a report or two on this board.
The nematode problem has been around for years as you can see by searching threads. Also, nematode ID requires a multitude of complicated and expensive lab procedures. It cannot be done casually. It also requires a MS or a PhD specializing in nematodes. Several years ago, Lynn Carta thought that she had Genus Panagrolaimus isolated from a T. Search that Genus and you will find a multitude of info. I don't know if she published anything on that finding.
These are all good ideas and observations but basically it is just a rehash of what has been said before, years ago. It will take TONS of money, education, time and equipment including time on a SEM (just to mention a few things) to even begin studies.

Kerry Gowin, AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM

It's definitely not a fact. But I think it tells something that we don't have nematode cases in Europe.

And I know it doesn't bring any solutions... But it's still important thing to consider, as many of us live far away from there and are thinking about these issues when buying tarantulas. Well... it's not an issue to me at all, because I don't buy WC tarantulas anyway, and I only get tarantulas from Germany.

Anyway, I think you got the point.

Some of the worst nematode cases I have EVER seen where in CB tarantulas.

Kerry Gowin, AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM

 

[Paramite]

That's exactly why I was succesting it's more of a "local problem" than a problem with WC tarantulas.

 

[wedge07]

First of all thank you Kerry and all of your colleagues at REISM for your efforts.:worship: I will continue what research I can and follow your recommended searches.

 

[bodisky]

That's exactly why I was succesting it's more of a "local problem" than a problem with WC tarantulas.

Years ago, one of my first cases was from England. We had a handful of others, one from Germany as well as another case from Germany that was not related to nematodes.
Kerry Gowin, AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM

First of all thank you Kerry for your efforts.:worship: I will continue what research I can and follow your recommended searches.

You are most welcome. If this thread remains friendly and flameless I am happy to stick around and help if I can.
Kerry Gowin AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM

 

[wedge07]

You are most welcome. If this thread remains friendly and flameless I am happy to stick around and help if I can.
Kerry Gowin AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM

Thanks, hopefully we can keep this thread on track.

 

[BrianWI]

OK, first lets get off this WAAAYYYY off kind of thinking....

To cure the problem, you have two avenues to pursue. One would be scientific, pure and simple. However, empirical study could also cure this issue. While it may not identify the bacterium or the nematode, strictly speaking, one does not need to.

Instead, and some would frown on this for sure, a large number of T's could be infected and treatments performed (where r those hybrids now that had no use). You can come up with a treatment without identifying the specific cause.


And truthfully, this is still how most things medical, in human and animals, are STILL done, trial and error.

 

[MizM]

Ugh, I can't say that I could support reasearch done on animals... or invertebrates even. I know it's done extensively, but I don't support anything that employs that method of testing. That I KNOW of. I can't help but put myself in the poor creature's place and.... gulp.

OK, first lets get off this WAAAYYYY off kind of thinking....

To cure the problem, you have two avenues to pursue. One would be scientific, pure and simple. However, empirical study could also cure this issue. While it may not identify the bacterium or the nematode, strictly speaking, one does not need to.

Instead, and some would frown on this for sure, a large number of T's could be infected and treatments performed (where r those hybrids now that had no use). You can come up with a treatment without identifying the specific cause.


And truthfully, this is still how most things medical, in human and animals, are STILL done, trial and error.

 

[Paramite]

You do realize that the same scientists are doing the same "empirical studies" than a common hobyist?

 

[wedge07]

OK, first lets get off this WAAAYYYY off kind of thinking....

To cure the problem, you have two avenues to pursue. One would be scientific, pure and simple. However, empirical study could also cure this issue. While it may not identify the bacterium or the nematode, strictly speaking, one does not need to.

Instead, and some would frown on this for sure, a large number of T's could be infected and treatments performed (where r those hybrids now that had no use). You can come up with a treatment without identifying the specific cause.


And truthfully, this is still how most things medical, in human and animals, are STILL done, trial and error.

So, give us a direction. We need research to even begin to understand where to start. The very treatments we use to save our Ts may very well destroy bacteria helpful to our Ts and kill our Ts in the process. I don't think anyone on the board is willing to make the sacrifices you are suggesting.

 

[BrianWI]

u have to think long term. 100 dead now, or ??? later.

Even so, the next one tht gets posted should first identify as worms, then try a treatment. I would say Ivermectin and piprazine would be first and I have not seen them tried in any study. Panacur was ruled out in 2 I saw....

I would say, after thinking, try piprazine first. Is what most puppy/kitten woemrs are. If you identify the white mass as worms and moving, dilute some wormer and squirt it in. In not all to long, the worms should stop moving (piprazine paralyzes them).

 

[Bill S]

And truthfully, this is still how most things medical, in human and animals, are STILL done, trial and error.

No offense - but I'm guessing you are unfamiliar with the incredible legal bureaucracy involved with medical testing and approval. Besides FDA regulations, we live in a world where malpractice suits would keep any doctor from getting too creative in terms of "trial and error" experimentation with patients.

Any legitimate testing would need to be supported by data and standards to be worth anything.

Even so, the next one tht gets posted should first identify as worms, then try a treatment.

I agree. If someone knowledgeable in the area could draw up a standard form that people could use for reporting cases, treatments and results, and if a forum could be set up to serve as a central information exchange site, that could really benefit the hobby. It would have to include such things as if/how a nematode infestation was diagnosed - there are no doubt things being called nematodes that aren't, so you'd need to be sure you weren't "curing" random white materials near the mouth. Tarantula species would be important, since there has been speculation that not all species may be equally susceptible. Geographical location would be useful too, if it's true that Europe has far fewer cases than North America.

I know it's easy to suggest what "someone" ought to do - certainly easier than volunteering to do it yourself. But... that's exactly what I'm doing here. I have never seen a nematode on a tarantula, have no experience with nematodes, and am not in a position to run a nematode/tarantula project. But I'd be happy to kick around ideas with people regarding such a project in hopes that someone will get inspired and have the capabilities to put such a thing together.

 

[wedge07]

The main problem is we are not dealing with one problem. Everyone seems to be approaching this from one way, nematodes. Nematodes are the problem but so is the bacteria they carry. We have to treat the bacteria and the nematodes at the same time. Given that crickets are possibly the vectors for nematodes we may have to treat them, as a potential food supply. So we are faced with multiple problems. We need to be able treat our food source, as potential vectors, and be able to treat our pets without casualty. RIESM and Bill S ( I am pretty sure you have already pointed this out in previous posts) have already pointed us in the right direction, we just need to figure it out from there.

 

[BrianWI]

No offense - but I'm guessing you are unfamiliar with the incredible legal bureaucracy involved with medical testing and approval. Besides FDA regulations, we live in a world where malpractice suits would keep any doctor from getting too creative in terms of "trial and error" experimentation with patients.

I am sorry to tell you this, but you are VERY wrong in this. The process of testing new drugs is VERY hit and miss. Much is done with animals. Others are done with paid volunteers (and waivers). Some are not even done thouroughly enough (have you not seen the masses of class actions against this and that? I think Paxil is a recent one). The malpractice cases are far outweighed by the profits so business goes on.... And thats only a tiny number of the total "drugs" tried that made it past initial testing (like on cell cultures). How do you think they figure out to even suspect a drug will have some effect? Alot is very random.


Anyway, I have closed out all my studies (last year was last one on hypermelanotic pigment genetics) and may take on something new. However, empirical studies by hobbiests can be very valuable. I have known several hobbiests that greatly furthered the science in their hobbies with their research.

 

[bodisky]

I agree. If someone knowledgeable in the area could draw up a standard form that people could use for reporting cases, treatments and results, and if a forum could be set up to serve as a central information exchange site, that could really benefit the hobby. It would have to include such things as if/how a nematode infestation was diagnosed - there are no doubt things being called nematodes that aren't, so you'd need to be sure you weren't "curing" random white materials near the mouth. Tarantula species would be important, since there has been speculation that not all species may be equally susceptible. Geographical location would be useful too, if it's true that Europe has far fewer cases than North America.

I know it's easy to suggest what "someone" ought to do - certainly easier than volunteering to do it yourself. But... that's exactly what I'm doing here. I have never seen a nematode on a tarantula, have no experience with nematodes, and am not in a position to run a nematode/tarantula project. But I'd be happy to kick around ideas with people regarding such a project in hopes that someone will get inspired and have the capabilities to put such a thing together.

Bill,
RIESM has standard forms, methods of diagnosis, treatments and results, etc that we used during our course of research. I will be happy to share these things and my experiences if a forum is started.
We had several cases that involved white materials around the mouth that were not nematodes. Larry's analysis on one such case was posted here. My lab is still running however I cannot do the amount of autopsies and lab work I was doing before without additional financial support. If I win the lottery that may change. Sadly, Larry wont be participating at all. He lost more money than any of us at RIESM.
It is important to first identify the normal bacterial and fungal flora of the T. Also, someone is needed to ID the nematodes. RIESM had no nematode scientist willing to ID what we found. Lynn Carta is the only one that seemed interested in the problem but was researching on her own. She also had the all the equipment needed for ID including a SEM.

You are right, it is very easy to suggest things. I am very reluctant to even get involved in this again but I will share what I know. However, any lab involvement on my part is arguable at this time. Because I have participated in these studies for so long I have become battered, cynical and jaded. I apologize in advance if my posts reflect those feelings in any way.
If any of you are working in the world of science and research you know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Best regards,
Kerry Gowin AS, BS, MS
formerly RIESM

 

[Thompson08]

Thank you bodisky for all the information! Very helpful :worship:

 

[CodeWilster]

Hey Kerry if anything goes wrong am I going to get into trouble for this? lol It's great to see you posting!

A. aurantiaca is still alive no signs of nematodes. I "force-water" her once a day and change the vermiculite daily also. However she seems to have much less energy (she squirms when I pinch grab her but is otherwise pretty sluggish). The antibiotics probably kicked her butt. I have a question, though, when their chelicerae are "paralyzed", how paralyzed is "paralyzed"? Like COMPLETELY immobile or can they still rub them around a little bit? (Thought I caught her rubbing them together the last time I watered her). I'll be sure to watch extremely closely this time (maybe try to get a video). Other than that same-o same-o. I'm happy she's at least still hanging in there!

 

[BrianWI]

I'll just throw this out there....

I know what Kerry speaks of. I have written articles in journals in this country and others for "peer" review. I have been ridiculed, laughed at, insulted and even threatened for simply putting out data (try saying things that are true but tick of the big sellers of animals, those in it for the money). However, I must say, I don't particulary give a rat's patoot about such things, I remain generally unaffected. If you have seen my posts here on research using crossbreeding as a tool for research, you probably noticed I care little about popular opinion and always encourage open communication.

I may argue findings, disagree, etc., but will always support anyone doing research they hope to further their hobby.

 

[bodisky]

Hey Kerry if anything goes wrong am I going to get into trouble for this? lol It's great to see you posting!

A. aurantiaca is still alive no signs of nematodes. I "force-water" her once a day and change the vermiculite daily also. However she seems to have much less energy (she squirms when I pinch grab her but is otherwise pretty sluggish). The antibiotics probably kicked her butt. I have a question, though, when their chelicerae are "paralyzed", how paralyzed is "paralyzed"? Like COMPLETELY immobile or can they still rub them around a little bit? (Thought I caught her rubbing them together the last time I watered her). I'll be sure to watch extremely closely this time (maybe try to get a video). Other than that same-o same-o. I'm happy she's at least still hanging in there!

Yes, Cody. Its all your fault and boy are you in big trouble. Now you will have to put up with my ramblings.
I will keep posting as long as everyone knows I am in this to share what I know and not get into any flames or debates. I just don't have the time.
IME, nematodes invade the cheliceral tissue in the advanced stages of infestation. In simple words, the nematodes and their bacteria began to destroy cheliceral tissue. (I have a micro pic of a nematode in cheliceral tissue taken using polarized light if anyone is interested) This causes the chelicerae to "lock down" so to speak. There will be no movement of the chelicerae in the advanced stage. Once the nematode reaches internal tissue there is no stopping the process. The T begins to decompose internally.
How do the nematodes enter the chelicerae? I have my theory but its an educated guess. I will have to post a pic to explain myself.
I would leave her alone. Put her water dish in only at night for now.
Best regards,
Kerry