My Ts are dying! Help!

[Introvertebrate]

India is in Asia.

I’ve raised Ov’s, all were male. I never let the temps drop that low, I was always careful about their temps after I had done some research on where they were from etc

I know from a senior member OW breeder that Ov’s are sensitive to moisture, meaning can’t be “too dry”. More sensitive than people are actually aware. Too dry they diet

The odd part is they all look normal.

Based on the limited data I really feel it was the low temps.

If not temps—
Do all the dead ones have any commonalities, like from the same seller during the same time period? Perhaps the root cause is there?

I lean with temps

along with that some exotics, ie reptiles, have a lower tolerance for temp fluctuations or temps they did not evolve with compared to other animals that have similar environments.

Since temperatures are so critical, it makes me wonder what folks do during a power outage. The ideal solution would be a standby generator, but the installation can get pricey.

 

[viper69]

Since temperatures are so critical, it makes me wonder what folks do during a power outage. The ideal solution would be a standby generator, but the installation can get pricey.

I can't say how critical, it's just me being cautious. I have Avics living at 75F night/day, sometimes 68-70 night drops, 365- and that is not their native temps, nor native humidity for sure. Other species don't adapt as well.

 

[jrh3]

Looking to their body position, not curled, so hydration is not the issue

What does hydration have to do with death curl? Tarantulas are like a hydraulic system. When they lose hydraulic pressure their legs curl in. This is what creates the death curl. I could be wrong though.

 

[Introvertebrate]

I can't say how critical, it's just me being cautious. I have Avics living at 75F night/day, sometimes 68-70 night drops, 365- and that is not their native temps, nor native humidity for sure. Other species don't adapt as well.

Got it. I did a search on 'power outage' but most of the solutions assume that the T owner is at home and can deal with it. Heat packs, propane heaters, use your manually started generator, etc. I guess most outages don't last long enough for the temperature to dip too far. Anyway thanks, I don't want to hijack the thread.

 

[jrh3]

Got it. I did a search on 'power outage' but most of the solutions assume that the T owner is at home and can deal with it. Heat packs, propane heaters, use your manually started generator, etc. I guess most outages don't last long enough for the temperature to dip too far. Anyway thanks, I don't want to hijack the thread.

I purchased a 800 dollar gas powered Generac generator and it will run my whole house minus the 2 a/c units. This is sufficient in winter for power outages. The tank will run for 10-12 hours.

 

[Dorifto]

What does hydration have to do with death curl? Tarantulas are like a hydraulic system. When they lose hydraulic pressure their legs curl in. This is what creates the death curl. I could be wrong though.

I mean that the dehydration it's not the issue, that the hydration was correct.

 

[Introvertebrate]

I purchased a 800 dollar gas powered Generac generator and it will run my whole house minus the 2 a/c units. This is sufficient in winter for power outages. The tank will run for 10-12 hours.

That would be my dream setup. It might have to wait for my final downsized home.

 

[viper69]

What does hydration have to do with death curl? Tarantulas are like a hydraulic system. When they lose hydraulic pressure their legs curl in. This is what creates the death curl. I could be wrong though.

Indeed hydraulics to an extent. However the curl is not caused soley due to the hydration levels. The reason I've read is the curl is due to the position of their muscles inside their legs. They only have muscles on the medial side (medial to center of body) if I recall correctly. This results in their legs being pulled inward.

Also, a T can have a death curl but not necessarily due to lack of hydration if I recall AphoTX correctly. There are multiple reasons this can occur, like infection. But you may know this already.

 

[BoyFromLA]

Below is the ‘exact quote’ from the source:

Tarantulas have flexor muscles that contract to curl legs inward, however, some leg joints lack extensor muscles to extend them outward again.

Instead, muscles are tightened within the spider’s body which exerts pressure on blood in the legs, causing then to extend; something like squeezing one side of a water balloon.

When tarantulas and other spiders die, their legs curl permanently inward.

If this is the case, I am so curious why those deceased tarantulas were not curled up as such? Is it because they died not so long ago? Or some other abnormalities involved?

Also, a T can have a death curl but not necessarily due to lack of hydration if I recall AphoTX correctly. There are multiple reasons this can occur, like infection. But you may know this already.

You were literally posted 3 minutes before I post lol.

 

[Venom1080]

India is in Asia.

I’ve raised Ov’s, all were male. I never let the temps drop that low, I was always careful about their temps after I had done some research on where they were from etc

I know from a senior member OW breeder that Ov’s are sensitive to moisture, meaning can’t be “too dry”. More sensitive than people are actually aware. Too dry they diet

The odd part is they all look normal.

Based on the limited data I really feel it was the low temps.

If not temps—
Do all the dead ones have any commonalities, like from the same seller during the same time period? Perhaps the root cause is there?

I lean with temps

along with that some exotics, ie reptiles, have a lower tolerance for temp fluctuations or temps they did not evolve with compared to other animals that have similar environments.

Sensitive to moisture as in they need it more humid?

 

[viper69]

T room and you see a beautiful animal like Omothymus violaceopes

Very true! How long have you done aquaria?

Below is the ‘exact quote’ from the source:

Tarantulas have flexor muscles that contract to curl legs inward, however, some leg joints lack extensor muscles to extend them outward again.

Instead, muscles are tightened within the spider’s body which exerts pressure on blood in the legs, causing then to extend; something like squeezing one side of a water balloon.

When tarantulas and other spiders die, their legs curl permanently inward.

If this is the case, I am so curious why those deceased tarantulas were not curled up as such? Is it because they died not so long ago? Or some other abnormalities involved?



You were literally posted 3 minutes before I post lol.

I remember many years ago, maybe 6-10 yrs, being intellectually curious about the curling. It struct me as odd to "always" see that in dead Ts. I had to look it up and found a book that explained it.

All it took was 5 min of research on my own. No posting, and waiting around for a possible answer. What a crazy idea I know!

Sensitive to moisture as in they need it more humid?

Yes, unlike Avics which can tolerate dry or more dry cages quite well generally, Ov's really don't do well. Poec told me this. He was a senior keeper'/breeder of many, many species of OWs. In fact he was primarily an OW breeder with only a handful of NW species. He told me they were his most humidity sensitive species he bred and raised. He had a vast arsenal of knowledge of many decades long before any of us were doing this.

He was an effective and helpful resource here.

 

[l4nsky]

Very true! How long have you done aquaria?

About 19 years. I had at least one up and running between the ages of 5 and 24 or so. It's been quite a few years since I've had one setup for myself, but that was my first animal related hobby. Was pretty deep into it for awhile, even becoming a global moderator on one of the larger predatory fish forums way back around the turn of the century lmao. Now I feel old.....

 

[viper69]

About 19 years. I had at least one up and running between the ages of 5 and 24 or so. It's been quite a few years since I've had one setup for myself, but that was my first animal related hobby. Was pretty deep into it for awhile, even becoming a global moderator on one of the larger predatory fish forums way back around the turn of the century lmao. Now I feel old.....

Same here, had a fresh tropical tank, 15 gallon when I was about 9, back when 15 gallons were EASY to come by. I always visited the salt tanks- too pricey for my family back then, way too pricey!! But I did see my first octopus there, and I was hooked. Now the setups for salts are a bit different, the chemistry is worked out much better I understand, tank sizes can be much smaller now for salts. Maybe some day I'll get into it again.

 

[l4nsky]

Same here, had a fresh tropical tank, 15 gallon when I was about 9, back when 15 gallons were EASY to come by. I always visited the salt tanks- too pricey for my family back then, way too pricey!! But I did see my first octopus there, and I was hooked. Now the setups for salts are a bit different, the chemistry is worked out much better I understand, tank sizes can be much smaller now for salts. Maybe some day I'll get into it again.

Nano FOWLR and reef systems are too much of a knives edge for me. Saltwater fish and especially invertebrates require consistency above all, consistent temp, pH, salinity etc. They're really never exposed to any variation as the oceans, being such a large body of water, are inherently stable in their parameters. IMO, by giving up water volume and solely relying on equipment to maintain parameters in a nano aquarium, you're pretty much dancing on the edge of disaster. If a protein skimmer fails in a 180g, depending on the stock levels it can be some time until it's a problem. In a 5g nano, it's a problem almost immediately.

Oh and it seems fitting that I'm participating in this thread today and now my power is out on the coldest night of the year so far.... 20k people affected, 2 hours in, and they don't know what the cause is. *SIGH*, it's going to be a looooooong night. T room is holding around 70-72.

 

[viper69]

They're really never exposed to any variation as the oceans

So true, esp around the equator! But reef systems- man they are gorgeous. A guy in college had a reef tank, this was a new design back then, with high pressure heads to simulate the tidal movements if I recall correctly. No fish, just inverts and such.

So true on Nano tanks, but they look gorgeous!! Slices of life-- but your words are why I haven't pursued one, small volumes are inherently sensitive to chemistry changes even with today's advances compared to decades ago.

Good luck on temps- that sucks!

 

[Venom1080]

I was asking about dimensions so I could get a better idea of the ventilation and air turnover in the enclosures. I got a good enough idea from the pictures to work with, but I'd still like to know about top ventilation .

I think the temperature was the final nail in the coffin (especially if you can tie deaths to known temperature drops), but I'm going to digress a little bit. I believe the main problem is a bit more hidden and is due to some issues with ventilation. In 3 of the 4 enclosure you have pictured, I see some cross ventilation, but it's at the very top of the enclosure. I also can't ascertain what kind of top ventilation you have, if any (I'm going to guess that you do and it's at least less than or equal to the amount of cross ventilation).

So I'm going to break this down a little bit because I know some people are going to nitpick at it (which is fine, I'm just trying to eliminate some of the back and forth). IMO, temperature can't be the only variable. Yes, these are rainforest animals that never really have to deal with low temperatures or low humidity (or moisture if you prefer) and as such have a relatively low tolerance for both. However, if temperature was the only variable, you would see losses in the other rainforest tarantulas in your care like the Theraphosa etc. Instead, the only losses are with the Ornithoctoninae, specifically the arboreal species. Your terrestrial/fossorial species seem to be no worse for wear, so what's the difference? Well, obviously it's the habitat type they prefer and the characteristics of each. So, what is distinctly different about an arboreal habitat than a terrestrial/fossorial one? I'm sure we can list several superficial differences, but the most important one and the one I'm going to focus on is air turnover and general lack of air stagnation. In comparison to being on the ground or in the ground, a tarantula that makes it's home above the forest floor is exposed to a lot more air turnover and will almost never be exposed to stagnant air. As such, they really don't have a large tolerance for it. Consequently, a tarantula that is living on the forest floor will from time to time be exposed to less than optimal air turnover due to the thickness of the undergrowth restricting air movement and living in a burrow/hide that isn't well ventilated. I believe this explains what we're seeing in your collection, but you have ventilation in your enclosures, what's the deal?

So, it has to do with the amount and placement of ventilation IMO. You're not using a lot of ventilation (which I'm guessing is to try and retain some of the moisture/humidity) which is fine, but when you use less, you have to be more precise and strategic with it's placement to achieve the proper turnover rate and prevent stagnation. So, I'm going to refer to this picture below to explain better: View attachment 407197
This is kind of a crude picture to explain air movement. Basically, hot air (and/or humid air) rises and escapes from the top of the enclosure as it's less dense then cold/dry air. As this hot/moist air exits, it creates a small vacuum and pulls in air from the outside of the enclosure via the ventilation. This incoming air mixes with the enclosure air, preventing stagnation and ensuring air turnover. On my enclosures, you can see I opt for a lot of cross ventilation. This lets me mix the incoming air with the entire internal air volume. This ensures I have a large turnover rate in the whole enclosure and I trade the problem of potential air stagnation for the problem of increased evaporation rate (which is easily mitigated by a deep, well compacted substrate with moisture retaining additives ). Now, the ventilation I see in the majority of your pictures is focused entirely at the top of the enclosures. This means that instead of using the whole internal air volume of the enclosure to mix the incoming air, you're only mixing and turning over about the top third of the enclosure. The bottom two thirds of the enclosure are getting little to no turnover and as such become stagnant. I've dealt with this problem in two other hobbies, that being aquarium keeping and fungiculture.

• In aquarium keeping, it's a well known issue that a "tall" aquarium can hold less fish than a "wide" aquarium of the same size. This is because a tall aquarium has less surface area for air turnover, resulting in lower O2 levels in the aquarium, especially the deeper in the water you go (for those of you who like math, a standard 150g is 72"L x 18"W x 27"H while a tall 150g is 48"L x 24"W x 30"H. This means a standard 150g without any water movement has 1,296 square inches of surface area for gas exchange and only 27" of depth that gas has to diffuse into, whereas a 150g tall has 1,152 square inches of surface area and 30" of depth. Now that doesn't seem like much of a difference, but that's without any water movement at the surface. Add water movement via aeration or filter output and that extra ~140 square inches of surface area exponentially grows).
• In fungiculture, excess CO2 levels due to lack of air turnover results in some skinny, narrow fruiting bodies (mushrooms). In some species, this is actually desirable (look at the difference between wild enoki mushrooms and cultured enoki mushrooms) and is accomplished by adding a cone to the top of the culture bottle to trap and hold CO2 near the fruiting surface of the mycelium. This is accomplished because CO2 is heavier than air and if the air turnover rate is reduced (by adding the cone to the top of the jar), CO2 will naturally accumulate in the cone from the fungi's respiration. I've even had CO2 issues in the small greenhouses I use for fruiting chambers and have resorted to leaving the bottom 4 inches of the doors open to allow the CO2 to "fall" out of the enclosure when the air circulation systems (which are on a timer) are off and not circulating the air in the fruiting chamber.

I see the same problems with your current ventilation. There's no turnover in the very bottom of the enclosure, resulting in a large pocket of stagnant air that slowly results in the weakening of the tarantula. I see three ways of moving forward and addressing this issue for the future.

1. One, which isn't the most practical option, is to use plants. They'll prevent stagnation by turning the pooled CO2 into O2. I'd suggest a different, easier option unless you really want to go the planted/bioactive route.
2. The second option is to drastically increase your ventilation. This is my preferred method. I use at least a 4:1 cross ventilation to top ventilation ratio in all of my enclosures and I run the cross ventilation on two sides from the substrate level (or even below the substrate level) to a decent way up the side. In the pictured mainstay, there are 9 ventilation holes in the lid, but 56 ventilation holes in the sides (a little over a 6:1 ratio). As stated earlier, with increased ventilation, I trade the problem of potential air stagnation for the problem of increased evaporation rate. This is easily mitigated by a deep, well compacted, moisture retaining substrate (not 100% mitigated mind you, you'll still be adding water). In addition, since there is a higher turnover rate and evaporation rate, I can err more on the side of too much water added instead of too little for my moisture dependent species.
3. The last option is probably your best bet as I imagine being in Canada using central heat, you have a rather dry house and that's why you have a smaller amount of ventilation to slow the evaporation rate. Instead of placing your cross ventilation up high in the enclosure, place it at substrate level. This ensures that the entire internal air volume of the enclosure receives some amount of air turnover, it's never completely still, and won't become stagnant. If your only going to be using one or two rows, make sure the tarantula doesn't block them with burrow spoil.

I hope you'll give Ornithoctoninae sp another go here in the future. They're not the easiest to keep for sure, but IMO and IME the more advanced care and attention that they require is soooo worth it when you can walk into the T room and you see a beautiful animal like Omothymus violaceopes or Phormingochilus sp. Sabah Blue out and about, on vibrant display.

Thanks,
--Matt

Appreciate the depth. I still keep several Ornithoctoninae who have done well. Phormingochilus mostly.

I don't doubt you're right, but I really don't believe ventilation is the issue. I keep other humid arboreals like Poecilotheria, Psalmopoeus, Heteroscodra, Stromatopelma, Tapinauchinius, etc. And I don't have these issues.

 

[l4nsky]

Good luck on temps- that sucks!

Think I'm out of the woods on that end. T room got to 66 and right as I was driving to grab a family member's generator, my neighbor called and let me know power was back on. Looks like everyone's all good, but my concern is the 100+ P. sp Sabah Blue eggs in the incubator .

Appreciate the depth. I still keep several Ornithoctoninae who have done well. Phormingochilus mostly.

I don't doubt you're right, but I really don't believe ventilation is the issue. I keep other humid arboreals like Poecilotheria, Psalmopoeus, Heteroscodra, Stromatopelma, Tapinauchinius, etc. And I don't have these issues.

Anytime! Ornithoctoninae is hands down my favorite subfamily and I want everyone to be as successful with them as I have been. I tried to logically think through your problem as presented and I kept coming back to why didn't the Theraphosa have problems? For all intents and purposes, they practically require the same care, being moisture dependent denizens of the rainforest. Ventilation is the only thing that makes sense to me and fills in the gap, so to say.

Couple follow up questions if you don't mind. Are the Phormingochilus sp (which ones by the way?) the only arboreal Ornithoctoninae that you've had some success with and by the statement done well, how much longer have they been in your collection than the deceased specimens were and what's the ventilation like for the success stories? Were they kept on higher shelves then the deceased specimens? Remember, I do believe that temps were the final killer, but I think a lack of air turnover weakened them. If the temps are fixed, it's possible you might not see another death, but changing up your ventilation is still something to consider.

The genera you have listed as humid arboreals I wouldn't really classify as such TBH. All of those genera (with maybe the exception of tappies) are what I would consider to be more generalist tarantulas (meaning not moisture dependent to the degree that Ornithoctoninae is) and are usually highly adaptable. They can be found in a variety of habitats, some of them man made even, and are very hardy in captivity. IMO, If you were having potential ventilation issues with a tarantula like a Psalmo, it would probably be because there's no ventilation holes at all lol.

 

[viper69]

Think I'm out of the woods on that end. T room got to 66 and right as I was driving to grab a family member's generator, my neighbor called and let me know power was back on. Looks like everyone's all good, but my concern is the 100+ P. sp Sabah Blue eggs in the incubator .


Anytime! Ornithoctoninae is hands down my favorite subfamily and I want everyone to be as successful with them as I have been. I tried to logically think through your problem as presented and I kept coming back to why didn't the Theraphosa have problems? For all intents and purposes, they practically require the same care, being moisture dependent denizens of the rainforest. Ventilation is the only thing that makes sense to me and fills in the gap, so to say.

Couple follow up questions if you don't mind. Are the Phormingochilus sp (which ones by the way?) the only arboreal Ornithoctoninae that you've had some success with and by the statement done well, how much longer have they been in your collection than the deceased specimens were and what's the ventilation like for the success stories? Were they kept on higher shelves then the deceased specimens? Remember, I do believe that temps were the final killer, but I think a lack of air turnover weakened them. If the temps are fixed, it's possible you might not see another death, but changing up your ventilation is still something to consider.

The genera you have listed as humid arboreals I wouldn't really classify as such TBH. All of those genera (with maybe the exception of tappies) are what I would consider to be more generalist tarantulas (meaning not moisture dependent to the degree that Ornithoctoninae is) and are usually highly adaptable. They can be found in a variety of habitats, some of them man made even, and are very hardy in captivity. IMO, If you were having potential ventilation issues with a tarantula like a Psalmo, it would probably be because there's no ventilation holes at all lol.

those are pretty, almost as pretty as Ovs, Good luck!!!

How'd the rehousings go w/yours?

 

[l4nsky]

those are pretty, almost as pretty as Ovs, Good luck!!!

How'd the rehousings go w/yours?

What rehousing are we talking about?

 

[viper69]

What rehousing are we talking about?

Sabah Blue