Take your own advice. :?
My new puppies
- Thread starter ta2edpop
- Start date
You are kidding, right? The only species that's overpopulated? I agree that humans are experiencing an overpopulation crisis, but the pet overpopulation crisis (particularly with dogs and cats) is mindblowing.
What exactly did I deserve? A clarification on the breed of dog and ta2edpop's opportunity to stickup for him/herself? Yeah, in that case, I guess I have to agree... I did deserve it.
I have a feeling that you did not read the rest of the thread. I assume that you read ta2edpop's post (oh, my Cheerios DID taste much better, thank you very much) and hit reply.
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- May 22, 2007
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- 80
Well, as much as i hate to admit it, he's got a point. This IS a discussion forum on bulls. perhaps all he is seeking is attention. maybe his parents didn't give him enough as a child so he must resort to negativity on a forum as a desperate cry for attention.
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- May 22, 2007
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- 80
thats exactly what happened, and that's why i deleted the post. i'm very sorry.You are kidding, right? The only species that's overpopulated? I agree that humans are experiencing an overpopulation crisis, but the pet overpopulation crisis (particularly with dogs and cats) is mindblowing.
What exactly did I deserve? A clarification on the breed of dog and ta2edpop's opportunity to stickup for him/herself? Yeah, in that case, I guess I have to agree... I did deserve it.
I have a feeling that you did not read the rest of the thread. I assume that you read ta2edpop's post (oh, my Cheerios DID taste much better, thank you very much) and hit reply.
well yeah, but humans breed destruction (mainly of the ecosystem) everywhere they go.
oh yeah, and that last paragraph, you totally called it haha.. i'm sorry..
edit: well, those dogs and cats are essentially the product of man kind. It's still our fault. we bred them and made them destroy like us. Everything domesticated is a product of us.
- Joined
- May 22, 2007
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- 80
hahaha, oh miscommunication...
I could not agree with you more. I am not in anyway blaming the breed(s) or dogs/cats. I do hold people accountable, though... Especially those that are producing more dogs and cats. I am not anti-breeder, but I see very few responsible breeders. They are rare
A responsible breeder has the dogs sold before they breed, and breed dogs in standard and to only better that breed/keep the line of standard going. Their dogs will NEVER go into shelters or rescues because they sell the dogs on contracts and know where all of the pets they have produced are. Because I am such a pit bull lover, and I have worked as an animal control officer and have euthanized more than I could possibly count (JUST due to having too many in the shelter and no one adopting them... very few were put to sleep due to being temperamentally unstable or unsound), I react sometimes when I see how many are being produced.
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- May 22, 2007
- Messages
- 80
why do you suppose these dogs had poor temperment? i just want to see what your perspective is. I know alot of people say it's genetic, but i beg to differ. I blame it on the husbandry of neglective maybe even abusive AND ignorant (and i use this term correctly) keepers.
i understand it may also be a loyalty issue to the owner as well, but theres several engbulls that live in my neighborhood, all of them have been raised right, and are not the least bit aggressive. even my friend bob has two pitbulls that are awesome and love people. except they've been known to chew on assorted objects. oh dogs...
Historically, the Pit Bull (and the American Staffordshire Terrier... they are essentially the same thing, only one is bred to a slightly different standard... but be there no confusion, it is the same dog folks) was breed to be a safe dog to humans. If a Pit Bull bit a person, they were "culled". It was essential that a handler be able to get in and touch, manipulate, control, and otherwise maneuver the dog in all situations, even those that were very intense (bull bating and dog fighting). Redirective aggression (where a dog is fighting another animal and then bites a human that intervenes) was NOT acceptable in the breed. Throughout their existence, Pit Bulls have been used to control other animals, but never people. The Pit Bull dog was bred to be submissive to all people, and that is why they made such fantastic family dogs. They were safe with children and strangers.
The Pit Bull was bred to be strong, confident, and resilient. They are not a guardian breed (like many shepherds, mastiffs, rotties, and even American Bulldogs), and therefore did not (and should not) have any inherent suspicion of strangers, any inclination to guard property, no resource guarding with people (food dish, bones, toys, etc). They were also intended to be confident dogs that were not readily fearful of new situations, stimulation, strangers, children, etc.
The breed (as an intended standard) is not supposed to guard. They should not display aggression or dominance issues with people. They should not be overly soft or fearful.
So, as for poor temperaments...
There are two different things to consider. Behavior and nature. Behavior is the way that a dog acts. There are certain things that people can do or not do that affect their dog's behavior. A dog that was kept in a backyard and not given attention may behave in a hyper, uncontrollable way (jumping, barking, etc). Behaviors can change. The nature of a dog is what lies under that. I do believe that all animals have genetic predispositions, and much of an animal's nature comes is caused by or effected by those genetic predispositions.
The Pit Bull breed is in the middle of a crisis. There are more Pit Bull type dogs in the USA than any other type. Shelters that do not instantly euthanize Pit Bulls are overrun with them. This breed can mate very young, they produce very large litters, and have a very hardy system (so generally, all in a litter will survive). Certain fads have created mixed breed dogs that are also called "Pit Bulls". Many of the large Pit Bulls have a mixed heritage with mastiff, American Bulldog, or even rott. These dogs are guardian breeds, which when mixed with a Pit Bulls, is like playing genetic dice. Personally, I am an individualist when it comes to all dogs. There are certain mixes that I would consider serious trouble, but the individual dog may be perfect (I have met some fantastic pit/chow mixes, for instance... and as pets, they were great... in no way should they breed... and if they were to bite someone, it is sad, but they would go down in the statistics as "Pit Bull", which is one of the problems that the breed reputation faces). Breeding a Pit Bull with a guardian breed produces some out of standard effects. Some of these things are done on purpose (some scumbag wants a Pit Bull guard dog and either breeds the mix or buys one... and then it gets bred back to a Pit Bull, and the offspring all have the genetic predisposition to being unsound, but they look, more or less, like purebred Pit Bulls and get sold as such... see the issue with this?). Other times, people are just trying to get a cool looking pitbull type dog with a big head, many wrinkles, cool color patterns, or whatever. The effect is the same. In breeding a Pit Bull with a guardian breed, some temperaments of their NATURE show up that make the dog unstable, as a Pit Bull. Resource guarding, suspicion of strangers, dominance issues with people, etc.
On the other side of it, if mixed with a heeler, you have a Pit Bull (that due to the similarities in the body and head shape, may pass for not being a mixed breed) that has a tendency to react to things that are running, and be nippy. I have a Pit Bull heeler mix that I LOVE LOVE LOVE... my total heart dog... but I would have never done that mix on purpose. As a matter of fact, I would not have even TAKEN her on purpose. I did so to keep her safe temporarily, and ended up really attached to her. She does not act like a sound Pit Bull, though. She acts like a heeler in many ways, but when you look at her you think "that is a Pit Bull" because she looks more pittie than anything else (which is rather consistent with any mixed breed that is mixed with Pit Bull). Some people mix Pit Bulls with boxers, whippets, hounds, etc. The effects are sometimes fine, and sometimes horrible, depending on the individual dog. All of the time, however, the dog is no longer within standard, but may be labeled purebred by others, or otherwise just a Pit Bull (not a whippet mix, not a hound mix, and so forth... people just call them Pit Bulls).
Pit Bulls that alarm bark, act fearful of people, growl at strangers, etc are not at all within standard, and pose a risk of fear biting. Their generic predisposition affects their nature, and their behavior is unstable. I have euthanized a few Pit Bulls that were like this. The dogs were not aggressive or mean, and it was not their fault, but they were not safe to adopt out as family pets. Some of these dogs WERE safe, even thought they were not within standard... they were just "soft". They were adopted out and made fine pets, but they were also spayed and neutered.
Then, through breeding for certain attributes, other things can come up that affect the nature of a Pit Bull. Selective breeding of recent has harmed the breed as much as helped the breed historically.
Often in nature when a genetic mutation occurs, there are other genetic mutations that might not be so cool as just the obvious color or pattern morph that we find appealing, but it comes as a package deal. Things like missing eye genes, bug eye genes, aids like immuno suppressant disease actually pretty typical in many types of animals. Greed for getting that morph to market sidesteps any ethical thought of culling an animal from breeding stock that is expressing a negative trait. For instance, breeding to get a Pit Bull with a huge head, or blue eyes, or a lot of wrinkles, short legs, etc.... but not upholding the temperament standard meanwhile. Breeders tend to wear blinders and justify things for all the wrong reasons.
The reason a mutation occurs is because when the DNA helix splits to clone it's self to pass genes to the next generation, often there is a copy error...kinda like a typo in the genetic code. It's pretty typical for these typos on random genes to chain react other typos and cause multiple mutations. Only a small portion of genetics is about looks. Other health-related things that you can't see are also genetic and prone to mutation. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. The not so better ones usually end up quickly culled in the wild (or by a responsible breeder, in the case of domestic animals). This sometimes leads to adaptation /evolution or even new subspecies (or breed)...but nature takes it's time and works out kinks or eliminates mistakes (and an ethical breeder will do the same). Some people don't. In the case of fad breeding with Pit Bulls, they perpetuate and expedite them.
Then there is the way that people treat Pit Bulls. It is horrible. People are far more vicious than any breed of dog, and the way that Pit Bulls are treated is mindblowing. I must say, however, it is the irresponsibility of breeding that creates dangerous Pit Bulls more than the abuse by the hand of man. I say this from an insider's perspective. I have had many rescued Pit Bulls come into my life and be adopted out as perfect family pets. These dogs have been starved, isolated, cut, burned, poisoned, etc. They were still tail-wagging, trusting, and friendly with people. One dog, Mike, was never socialized and was left in a basement to die. We rehabilitated him and he now works for the Washington State Patrol as a drug detection dog. Nina was left in a crate in an abandoned home for two weeks. She had never been handled, was starved, and had broken bones from a blunt impact object (the vet suspected baseball bat). She is a family dog and a flyball champion now. My own dog was "trained" to be an attack dog (not bite sport, which it totally different...) and "trained" to dog fight. She was confused, but it was all play energy. She has no guarding inclinations, no fear, and approaches everyone with a wiggling butt. I simply redirected all of her drives to playing tug, fetch, and other toys and games. She had been abused, but she never showed any hesitations towards people. They tried to make her mean, and it just made her submissive and apologetic. We also had Pit Bulls come in from hurricane Katrina... those dogs were in horrible shape, but were still safe and friendly.
I have, however, had a Pit Bull puppy (6 weeks old) that I had to put to sleep at age two. She was dangerous. She had only known love, and was wonderful with our family. She was blue, huge, had a big head and tons of wrinkles, and was bred as a guard dog (NOT by us, it was by a back yard breeder). She had allergies, bad eye sight, and often was ill as well. She was a genetic mess. We socialized her as a puppy, did training, classes, etc... and she just went down hill as she aged. By age two, she would growl if she heard people on TV. She had not been on a walk in a year, I took her on leash to potty in a fenced yard because I was afraid that if she got out or someone came in, she would bite them. She was wonderful with us, but was a fearful, guarding, completely out of standard Pit Bull that was dangerous. We put her to sleep shortly after her second birthday. What happened to the rest of the litter? How many litters did each of those dogs have?
The Pit Bull standard calls for a dog that is never aggressive or fearful of people. Sadly, the standard has been thrown out of the window due to the popularity of the breed in some of the worst demographics of society. Even still, most Pit Bulls are fantastic Pit Bulls. The rest...? Well, their behavior may be still okay if they were any other type of dog, but it is not in standard for a Pit Bull (and again, many are mixed with other breeds). If those non-standard dogs are subjected to abuse and/or neglect, they have a hard time beating the predispositions that come naturally with the other breeds they are mixed with.
How is that for a nice, clear answer?
The Pit Bull was bred to be strong, confident, and resilient. They are not a guardian breed (like many shepherds, mastiffs, rotties, and even American Bulldogs), and therefore did not (and should not) have any inherent suspicion of strangers, any inclination to guard property, no resource guarding with people (food dish, bones, toys, etc). They were also intended to be confident dogs that were not readily fearful of new situations, stimulation, strangers, children, etc.
The breed (as an intended standard) is not supposed to guard. They should not display aggression or dominance issues with people. They should not be overly soft or fearful.
So, as for poor temperaments...
There are two different things to consider. Behavior and nature. Behavior is the way that a dog acts. There are certain things that people can do or not do that affect their dog's behavior. A dog that was kept in a backyard and not given attention may behave in a hyper, uncontrollable way (jumping, barking, etc). Behaviors can change. The nature of a dog is what lies under that. I do believe that all animals have genetic predispositions, and much of an animal's nature comes is caused by or effected by those genetic predispositions.
The Pit Bull breed is in the middle of a crisis. There are more Pit Bull type dogs in the USA than any other type. Shelters that do not instantly euthanize Pit Bulls are overrun with them. This breed can mate very young, they produce very large litters, and have a very hardy system (so generally, all in a litter will survive). Certain fads have created mixed breed dogs that are also called "Pit Bulls". Many of the large Pit Bulls have a mixed heritage with mastiff, American Bulldog, or even rott. These dogs are guardian breeds, which when mixed with a Pit Bulls, is like playing genetic dice. Personally, I am an individualist when it comes to all dogs. There are certain mixes that I would consider serious trouble, but the individual dog may be perfect (I have met some fantastic pit/chow mixes, for instance... and as pets, they were great... in no way should they breed... and if they were to bite someone, it is sad, but they would go down in the statistics as "Pit Bull", which is one of the problems that the breed reputation faces). Breeding a Pit Bull with a guardian breed produces some out of standard effects. Some of these things are done on purpose (some scumbag wants a Pit Bull guard dog and either breeds the mix or buys one... and then it gets bred back to a Pit Bull, and the offspring all have the genetic predisposition to being unsound, but they look, more or less, like purebred Pit Bulls and get sold as such... see the issue with this?). Other times, people are just trying to get a cool looking pitbull type dog with a big head, many wrinkles, cool color patterns, or whatever. The effect is the same. In breeding a Pit Bull with a guardian breed, some temperaments of their NATURE show up that make the dog unstable, as a Pit Bull. Resource guarding, suspicion of strangers, dominance issues with people, etc.
On the other side of it, if mixed with a heeler, you have a Pit Bull (that due to the similarities in the body and head shape, may pass for not being a mixed breed) that has a tendency to react to things that are running, and be nippy. I have a Pit Bull heeler mix that I LOVE LOVE LOVE... my total heart dog... but I would have never done that mix on purpose. As a matter of fact, I would not have even TAKEN her on purpose. I did so to keep her safe temporarily, and ended up really attached to her. She does not act like a sound Pit Bull, though. She acts like a heeler in many ways, but when you look at her you think "that is a Pit Bull" because she looks more pittie than anything else (which is rather consistent with any mixed breed that is mixed with Pit Bull). Some people mix Pit Bulls with boxers, whippets, hounds, etc. The effects are sometimes fine, and sometimes horrible, depending on the individual dog. All of the time, however, the dog is no longer within standard, but may be labeled purebred by others, or otherwise just a Pit Bull (not a whippet mix, not a hound mix, and so forth... people just call them Pit Bulls).
Pit Bulls that alarm bark, act fearful of people, growl at strangers, etc are not at all within standard, and pose a risk of fear biting. Their generic predisposition affects their nature, and their behavior is unstable. I have euthanized a few Pit Bulls that were like this. The dogs were not aggressive or mean, and it was not their fault, but they were not safe to adopt out as family pets. Some of these dogs WERE safe, even thought they were not within standard... they were just "soft". They were adopted out and made fine pets, but they were also spayed and neutered.
Then, through breeding for certain attributes, other things can come up that affect the nature of a Pit Bull. Selective breeding of recent has harmed the breed as much as helped the breed historically.
Often in nature when a genetic mutation occurs, there are other genetic mutations that might not be so cool as just the obvious color or pattern morph that we find appealing, but it comes as a package deal. Things like missing eye genes, bug eye genes, aids like immuno suppressant disease actually pretty typical in many types of animals. Greed for getting that morph to market sidesteps any ethical thought of culling an animal from breeding stock that is expressing a negative trait. For instance, breeding to get a Pit Bull with a huge head, or blue eyes, or a lot of wrinkles, short legs, etc.... but not upholding the temperament standard meanwhile. Breeders tend to wear blinders and justify things for all the wrong reasons.
The reason a mutation occurs is because when the DNA helix splits to clone it's self to pass genes to the next generation, often there is a copy error...kinda like a typo in the genetic code. It's pretty typical for these typos on random genes to chain react other typos and cause multiple mutations. Only a small portion of genetics is about looks. Other health-related things that you can't see are also genetic and prone to mutation. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. The not so better ones usually end up quickly culled in the wild (or by a responsible breeder, in the case of domestic animals). This sometimes leads to adaptation /evolution or even new subspecies (or breed)...but nature takes it's time and works out kinks or eliminates mistakes (and an ethical breeder will do the same). Some people don't. In the case of fad breeding with Pit Bulls, they perpetuate and expedite them.
Then there is the way that people treat Pit Bulls. It is horrible. People are far more vicious than any breed of dog, and the way that Pit Bulls are treated is mindblowing. I must say, however, it is the irresponsibility of breeding that creates dangerous Pit Bulls more than the abuse by the hand of man. I say this from an insider's perspective. I have had many rescued Pit Bulls come into my life and be adopted out as perfect family pets. These dogs have been starved, isolated, cut, burned, poisoned, etc. They were still tail-wagging, trusting, and friendly with people. One dog, Mike, was never socialized and was left in a basement to die. We rehabilitated him and he now works for the Washington State Patrol as a drug detection dog. Nina was left in a crate in an abandoned home for two weeks. She had never been handled, was starved, and had broken bones from a blunt impact object (the vet suspected baseball bat). She is a family dog and a flyball champion now. My own dog was "trained" to be an attack dog (not bite sport, which it totally different...) and "trained" to dog fight. She was confused, but it was all play energy. She has no guarding inclinations, no fear, and approaches everyone with a wiggling butt. I simply redirected all of her drives to playing tug, fetch, and other toys and games. She had been abused, but she never showed any hesitations towards people. They tried to make her mean, and it just made her submissive and apologetic. We also had Pit Bulls come in from hurricane Katrina... those dogs were in horrible shape, but were still safe and friendly.
I have, however, had a Pit Bull puppy (6 weeks old) that I had to put to sleep at age two. She was dangerous. She had only known love, and was wonderful with our family. She was blue, huge, had a big head and tons of wrinkles, and was bred as a guard dog (NOT by us, it was by a back yard breeder). She had allergies, bad eye sight, and often was ill as well. She was a genetic mess. We socialized her as a puppy, did training, classes, etc... and she just went down hill as she aged. By age two, she would growl if she heard people on TV. She had not been on a walk in a year, I took her on leash to potty in a fenced yard because I was afraid that if she got out or someone came in, she would bite them. She was wonderful with us, but was a fearful, guarding, completely out of standard Pit Bull that was dangerous. We put her to sleep shortly after her second birthday. What happened to the rest of the litter? How many litters did each of those dogs have?
The Pit Bull standard calls for a dog that is never aggressive or fearful of people. Sadly, the standard has been thrown out of the window due to the popularity of the breed in some of the worst demographics of society. Even still, most Pit Bulls are fantastic Pit Bulls. The rest...? Well, their behavior may be still okay if they were any other type of dog, but it is not in standard for a Pit Bull (and again, many are mixed with other breeds). If those non-standard dogs are subjected to abuse and/or neglect, they have a hard time beating the predispositions that come naturally with the other breeds they are mixed with.
How is that for a nice, clear answer?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2005
- Messages
- 193
Sorry could you type that again? I wasn't listening!lol. It is nice to see people who are understand bullies. I could not agree with you more.
I live in the Delta of Mississippi. I am about 40 miles south of Memphis. I can not begin to tell you of the low-rent ignorant getto/redneck mentalities I come across. I have been standing in a pet shop with a 140 lb fawn Bull Mastiff and been asked where I got that ROCKweiler from. People there is NO ck in the name.
It is not rare to see pits wander around. You can tell these are game dogs. This is an area where dog fighting is still obvious. Dogs who shy in a ring are killed or thrown out to rome the streets. So much play into their behavior, but she is right in saying most of it is Human.
I'll say it again. I have always made it a point to place my dogs in sound enviroments. I have turned away a lot of money to make sure that my pups were going to the best home possible. When I have to retire a female, Imake sure she is spayed and goes into a good pet home.
My breed is American Bulldogs. Embers is APPT. Diffrent. Same. I respect your love for the breed. Good luck in your work with them.
I live in the Delta of Mississippi. I am about 40 miles south of Memphis. I can not begin to tell you of the low-rent ignorant getto/redneck mentalities I come across. I have been standing in a pet shop with a 140 lb fawn Bull Mastiff and been asked where I got that ROCKweiler from. People there is NO ck in the name.
It is not rare to see pits wander around. You can tell these are game dogs. This is an area where dog fighting is still obvious. Dogs who shy in a ring are killed or thrown out to rome the streets. So much play into their behavior, but she is right in saying most of it is Human.
I'll say it again. I have always made it a point to place my dogs in sound enviroments. I have turned away a lot of money to make sure that my pups were going to the best home possible. When I have to retire a female, Imake sure she is spayed and goes into a good pet home.
My breed is American Bulldogs. Embers is APPT. Diffrent. Same. I respect your love for the breed. Good luck in your work with them.
- Joined
- May 22, 2007
- Messages
- 80
...awesome...
well it seems to make alot of sense. in this world this is all about money. so what if a new morph has a nasty temperment? a few kids will get bit and an ENTIRE group of different breeds will get a bad name, only to be amplified by hysterics and the fact that people DWELL on negativity (just watch the news), but in the end the breeder will have money in his pocket for his yatch. i hate people like that. humans ARE much more vicous than any dog you'll ever come across, in fact, we're more vicious than ANYthing you'll come across. I would be 100% misanthropic, but true misanthropia means killing yourself. and i'm about to do that.
It wouldnt be so bad if people werent so f***ing ignorant. If people took the time to LEARN about things like this. instead of live in a shrouded he-said-she-said world, immersed by the mass media, religious beliefs and narcissism.
well it seems to make alot of sense. in this world this is all about money. so what if a new morph has a nasty temperment? a few kids will get bit and an ENTIRE group of different breeds will get a bad name, only to be amplified by hysterics and the fact that people DWELL on negativity (just watch the news), but in the end the breeder will have money in his pocket for his yatch. i hate people like that. humans ARE much more vicous than any dog you'll ever come across, in fact, we're more vicious than ANYthing you'll come across. I would be 100% misanthropic, but true misanthropia means killing yourself. and i'm about to do that.
It wouldnt be so bad if people werent so f***ing ignorant. If people took the time to LEARN about things like this. instead of live in a shrouded he-said-she-said world, immersed by the mass media, religious beliefs and narcissism.
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2005
- Messages
- 673
They look delicious.
- Joined
- May 22, 2007
- Messages
- 80
hahaha, you MUST be asian! my uncle (we're veitnamese) told me he had dog in the old country and said it was delicious. If i go to vietnam again, i HAVE to try it for myself.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2005
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- 193
Why not just your Grandpa'? Sounds like he might be rightly seasoned already.
- Joined
- May 22, 2007
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- 80
huh? i'm afraid i dont understand...
my uncle has had snake before as well. he's also eaten all sorts of insects and things you wouldnt even think about. I love my uncle. open mind and intellegence to boot. someone i can actually talk nerdy to!
My step mom is Filipino. I lived with her family in Hawaii when I was very young (5). Then, I lived in Japan my childhood, and traveled to Singapore, Okinawa, Hong Kong, etc.
I have eaten some amazing things knowingly. Unknowingly, I have probably eaten even more.
Never Grandpa or Uncle, though :}
I have eaten some amazing things knowingly. Unknowingly, I have probably eaten even more.
Never Grandpa or Uncle, though :}
- Joined
- May 22, 2007
- Messages
- 80
I am SOOOO jealous...