My bearded dragon's yellow fungus help!

[ARACHNO-SMACK48]

So basically you are saying that I should never send anyone any T's? Or just reptiles? I can't believe I'm at risk of getting kicked out of this hobby by a fungi. You said it's considered an obligate pathogen? Meaning it doesn't survive long outside of a host?

 

[The Snark]

Obligate, as used in biology: By necessity. In this case, the organism propagates by casual contact with mobile organisms.

You're asking a question that constantly baffles and is the primary focus of epidemiologists the world over: What can act as a vector and to what degree? You will find opinions ranging from highly unlikely and only under circumstance X to 'the heck with worrying about spreading diseases, I'm only in it for the money' of the mercenary animal trade crowd. In laboratory terminologies the range is none-extremely unlikely to highly communicable-constantly prevalent and pervasive. None as in atherosclerosis at one end to the common cold virus at the other.

Running various searches over the white papers I'm drawing a blank. Not finding any specific tests on vectors and communicability.

So, in the classical science mode of 'there are no absolutes' the answer is somewhere between -assume Ts aren't vectors and hope- all the way over to strict quarantine. I'd keep searching the white papers. If this thing is growing to epidemic proportions someone should be doing a communicability test.


All that said and set aside, I'd concentrate on keeping your infected animal as healthy as it possibly can be. Use cautious but careful and deliberate treatments and try to drive the infection into complete remission. If you drive it into full remission time becomes a factor with each day lessening the chance of it being a source for further transmission.

I wish I could be of more help and give you some definitive answer. I'm only a researcher and am only relating the data I've dug up. Read, an Igor. Yessss massster! My knowledge of specifc biology is pretty limited.

 

[Najakeeper]

Knowing that world's amphibian populations are being decimated by a fungus species as we speak, I would say quarantine...

It is probably not that serious but I wouldn't take a chance.

 

[The Snark]

Knowing that world's amphibian populations are being decimated by a fungus species as we speak, I would say quarantine...

It is probably not that serious but I wouldn't take a chance.

I've been meaning to ask you, how do you assure that your feeders are disease free? I realize you take normal precautions. I'm just wondering if you take any extra-extraordinary ones.

 

[ARACHNO-SMACK48]

I've been meaning to ask you, how do you assure that your feeders are disease free? I realize you take normal precautions. I'm just wondering if you take any extra-extraordinary ones.

are you asking me or Naja keeper? By now I know for a fact that the fungal spores have been spread to many parts of my house and most likely my T room as well. So what do you guys think? Do I just need to leave the hobby for a while? I don't really see the point if I can't send T's. Right now I'm going to move my bearded dragon to the opposite side of the house. How would I go about sanitizing the area and my T room? My big guy is right here sleeping as I type this lol

 

[dementedlullaby]

I've been doing a bit of further research for you and it seems like there are several types of yellow fungi that beardies can suffer from. Did the vet swab and send the test to the lab? Were they able to identify the actual fungi strain? Maybe they would still have this info on record?

Chrysosporium is the most serious out of the yellow fungus ailments but perhaps that's not your problem. Do you notice discolouration on the vent area as well?



I do hope you can stay in the hobby. I don't really feel that I have the expertise to advise you on that though.

 

[Najakeeper]

I've been meaning to ask you, how do you assure that your feeders are disease free? I realize you take normal precautions. I'm just wondering if you take any extra-extraordinary ones.

Nothing extraordinary. I buy from very reputable breeders paying more than I would with others, thaw quickly in warm water and feed immediately. Never recycle feeders: Never feed an uneaten feeder to another snake, never let the feeders touch my floor and never ever freeze a thawed feeder again...

 

[The Snark]

Najakeeper, a lot of people could learn from your regimens. For feeding their animals and themselves. Caught my other trying to refreeze food the other day. It's really frustrating to me since I've had so much experience in labs, hospitals etc but getting 'bacterial bomb waiting to go off' through to some people seems to be a herculean undertaking.

OP, getting rid of spores means eliminating the source. A minimally infectious contaminated area with airborne pathogens can be drastically reduced in risk. Positive pressure ventilation, powerful UV lights destroying airborne spores with mandatory eye protection from the light, cleaning stations, frequent changes of white suits, head and footwear coverings, masks are all the industry standard for minimizing, but not entirely eliminating the pathogens. So no, the only quick fix is eliminating the source and time. Some diligence with a strong vacuum that has a fuzzy reusable bag/filter helps knock down spore counts pretty good.

 

[Blue Jaye]

You can try a product called Nolvasan . It's used in hospitals and vets . It comes concentrated you can dilute it and use it on your dragon it could very well kill the fungal infection and you can use it to clean the contaminated areas of your house . Hydrogen peroxide I also works well for cleaning but wear gloves . I use it in a low spray ,spray bottle to clean around my animal areas works very well . I also used Nolvasan on reptile infections and fungus and had good results . I would also use it to clean the dragons enclosure . As for spreading it around just use precaution always wash after handing and keep everything as clean as possible to avoid spreading . Daily cleaning of your dragon and his enclosure would also be very helpful in getting rid of the fungus . Then there's Rocal will kill everything anti bacterial and anti fungal but you can't use it on the animal it's some pretty powerful stuff . You could also try a Bearded dragon forum see if anyone there can help . Someone might have had experience with this particular type of fungus .

 

[The Snark]

I would think the vet has already prescribed chlorhexidine. Roccal-D, quaternary ammonium compounds, is very powerful but has a quite limited fungi spectrum efficacy. I use the stuff in a pretty concentrated form to blast our 85 million different fungi. Burns your eyes and nose but is a big mean nasty with that black mold family.

H2O2 kicks royal butt with any fungi but the drawback is it is entirely non latent. Open air and an organic material to chew on and it's gone in a few seconds, turning into water. Swabbing down surfaces with it as a clean and disinfect agent is useless. As example, cleaning the black mold off the shower curtain takes a half dozen applications with a synthetic paint brush. You can't use any organic applcator like a paper towel or cotton cloth as the stuff eats that instead. Works fantastic cleaning the mold and mildew off grout between the tiles in the bathroom though.

 

[Najakeeper]

Najakeeper, a lot of people could learn from your regimens. For feeding their animals and themselves. Caught my other trying to refreeze food the other day. It's really frustrating to me since I've had so much experience in labs, hospitals etc but getting 'bacterial bomb waiting to go off' through to some people seems to be a herculean undertaking.

I use to be a geneticist/cell biologist in my previous life and I have worked in a microbiology lab. Knowing that a lot of things can easily survive and even slowly grow in regular refrigeration temperatures, thawing and re-freezing is a very bad idea. People also don't understand basic things like freezing doesn't kill most bacteria or bacterial toxins can survive cooking even though the bacteria themselves die. I actually am more careful with what I feed my animals than what I eat myself .

 

[The Snark]

I use to be a geneticist/cell biologist in my previous life and I have worked in a microbiology lab. Knowing that a lot of things can easily survive and even slowly grow in regular refrigeration temperatures, thawing and re-freezing is a very bad idea. People also don't understand basic things like freezing doesn't kill most bacteria or bacterial toxins can survive cooking even though the bacteria themselves die. I actually am more careful with what I feed my animals than what I eat myself .

Takes me back to my own bio daze. Paraphrased, 'Imagine a ball made of steel reenforced concrete that can survive a heavy blow from a sledge hammer undamaged. But this same ball is capable of opening itself should the correct circumstances occur. Meet the spore.'
And, 'People don't realize bacteria presents two unique hazards and is often far more dangerous dead than alive.'

If you can recall, what the heck is that bacteria toxin that can withstand an unholy amount of heat and remain lethal? Something like 250C. I keep thinking botulinum but that's zapped at 100

 

[Najakeeper]

Emetic toxin from B.cereus? 250F though... I don't think any biological structure can stay functional at 250C.

 

[dementedlullaby]

Emetic toxin from B.cereus? 250F though... I don't think any biological structure can stay functional at 250C.

Hydrothermal vents would like a word .

 

[Najakeeper]

Hydrothermal vents would like a word .

Most organisms that live close to hydrothermal vents live at about 80C. Extreme thermophile bacteria can take upto 122C. No where near 250C .

 

[The Snark]

Emetic toxin from B.cereus? 250F though... I don't think any biological structure can stay functional at 250C.

Must have been F. Would get these test packs . Toss one in the autoclave with a normal run to check efficiency. Take the cooked pack, crack it and use it's own applicator to culture. Very handy. Positive cultures meant the flasher was on the fritz not delivering the steam fast enough.

 

[ARACHNO-SMACK48]

I am really bummed out... but I've got to do something... how should i go about decontaminating my T room and the surrounding area? I plan to move my bearded dragon out ASAP. What next?

 

[The Snark]

I am really bummed out... but I've got to do something... how should i go about decontaminating my T room and the surrounding area? I plan to move my bearded dragon out ASAP. What next?

The problem is you. You should assume you are the primary vector transporting the spores between animals. But anyway, one rough way of determining how infectious your environment is would be to isolate the dragon, clean the heck out of the place, then install uninfected animals that are known susceptible to the fungi in close proximity to the Ts.

Alternatively, chum up to a lab and get the proper equipment and methodology for taken samples and get the lab to culture them. Samples from the Ts themselves and their environment. When we had that Pseudomonas outbreak in the hospital I was shoveling dozens of samples every day to the path lab. That was how we nailed it down. Samples labeled from locations which eventually led us to the baths in PT.

 

[ARACHNO-SMACK48]

The problem is you. You should assume you are the primary vector transporting the spores between animals. But anyway, one rough way of determining how infectious your environment is would be to isolate the dragon, clean the heck out of the place, then install uninfected animals that are known susceptible to the fungi in close proximity to the Ts.

Alternatively, chum up to a lab and get the proper equipment and methodology for taken samples and get the lab to culture them. Samples from the Ts themselves and their environment. When we had that Pseudomonas outbreak in the hospital I was shoveling dozens of samples every day to the path lab. That was how we nailed it down. Samples labeled from locations which eventually led us to the baths in PT.

Okay so how would I go about elimenating the existing spores if I find an abundance of them in my T room? I plan to move my beardie across the house and I always wash my hands after dealing with him and touching anything in or around his cage. I don't really have access to a lab right now so I think I will move my beardie to another side of the house, treat the crap out of his enclosure, and anything that he has had contact with, then treat a bunch of catch cups, and catch all of my T's then move them out of the room and treat their enclosures, the t room, and the room next to it. I just need to figure out how I'm going to go about treating it. UVB sanitizers?

 

[The Snark]

Okay so how would I go about elimenating the existing spores if I find an abundance of them in my T room. I plan to move my beardie across the house and I always wash my hands after dealing with him and touching anything in or around his cage. I don't really have access to a lab right now so I think I will move my beardie to another side of the house, treat the crap out of his enclosure, and anything that he has had contact with, then treat a bunch of catch cups, and catch all of my T's then move them out of the room and treat their enclosures, the t room, and the room next to it. I just need to figure out how I'm going to go about treating it. UVB sanitizers?

From a white paper:
Chrysosporium-Related Fungi and Reptiles: A Fatal Attraction
F. Javier Cabañes , Deanna A. Sutton, Josep Guarro PLOS

Published: October 16, 2014
DOI: 10.1371/journal.ppat.1004367
Featured in PLOS Collections

I quote: "As these species of reptiles continue to gain popularity as pets, the disease is being found worldwide with cases reported thus far in Asia, Australia, Europe, and North America. The source(s) of the etiologic agents of this contagious mycosis, however, are yet unknown."
See: http://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1004367

Okay, to get down to basics. It's new, barely studied, and several fungal infections may have been misdiagnosed and actually could be CANV infections. It is a world wide epidemic entirely human caused. Transmission, unstudied. Read Sugar Honey Ice Tea in infectious disease control circles.

Options
1. Destroy the infected animal and thoroughly and repetitiously disinfect everything with broad spectrum fungicides
2. Keep infected animal in a negative pressure environment with 99% particle filtration and UV exposure of circulated air.
The above two are the most assured methods of minimizing infection risks and would be used in labs and hospitals.

Otherwise, minimize contact with the infected animal. Implement one way door protocol until multiple test subjects or spore counts return negative. Disinfect and use as rigid isolation procedures as the situation allows.

Infection transmission avoidance protocols are pretty simple. Never move between infected animals and any other location. A cleaning station, at least a sink must be in between. Avoid physical contact with the infected animal. Gloves and face mask should always be worn.

Recommended. http://www.sterislifesciences.com/P...ctants-and-Alcohols/Sporicides-Sterilant.aspx
Please note the sporocidal version of their products are at the top, well above normal bacterial disinfectants. Try to obtain this or a similar product and use liberally.

As for dealing with spores, assume the worst. I'm sure you've seen a room with sunlight coming in slantwise through a window and noticed all the dust in the air. Generally speaking, an aerobic fungi in it's reproductive phase produces a few million or billion spores for each of those dust motes. That is why you want to isolate the animal, expose it to open air as little as possible, aviod handling, and keep all surfaces near where it is kept sterilized.