Moulting with DKS

[drrjn]

Hey Folks,
I have this small A. seemanni, it moulted on 06/20/2024 (June 20, 2024). It never surfaced but it ate irregularly. It always had water in its enclosure but I now think it was mistakenly too dry in its enclosure with humidity around 50% but dry substrate. It moulted again on Sep 22, 2024. The molt was approx. 2.5" DSL, 1" BL After that it didn't surface from its burrow and 3 weeks later with it ignoring all food and never surfacing, I decided to check on it and it appeared severely dehydrated. I managed to make it drink Ringer's solution [1] and I placed it in an ICU. It has been in an ICU container ever since with ever worsening DKS signs (erratic leg movements, sections of legs 1 progressively non-mobile from the extremities inwards). Once or twice it ate a pre-killed cricket that I placed under its mouth or drank a drop of mealworm juice. To my surprise yesterday it moulted. I was hoping it may molt but I was sure it was not going to be able to exit from the molt but it did. I don't know yet it there are any signs of improvement of the DKS. I will add an update as the situation evolves. Here is a picture of this tarantula in its ICU next to its moult. My question: Has anyone had any experience with tarantulas with DKS for nearly 6 months and then moulting?

Thanks for your input.

[1] 1.Braun, M. E., Heatley, J. J. & Chitty, J. Clinical Techniques of Invertebrates. Vet. Clin. North Am.: Exot. Anim. Pr. 9, 205–221 (2006). The composition of Ringer's solution described is: sodium chloride 11.104 g/L, potassium chloride 0.149 g/L, calcium chloride dehydrate 0.588 g/L, magnesium chloride hexahydrate 0.813 g/L, and sodium phosphate heptahydrate 0.268 g/L.

 

[Ratmosphere]

I have never seen that before, but I will be following this thread. Keep us posted if you notice any improvements.

 

[viper69]

Not me

Seems like you fed it enough to molt, but the amount fed seems not to be enough to keep it hydrated. This would be generally true for TS that are around 2.5-3” or more. They need water too. It’s not easy at times to get TS to drink. You can’t rely on a water dish ever.

I highly doubt your humidity was an issue. If it was a frog sure.

 

[Andrew Clayton]

Hey Folks,
I have this small A. seemanni, it moulted on 06/20/2024 (June 20, 2024). It never surfaced but it ate irregularly. It always had water in its enclosure but I now think it was mistakenly too dry in its enclosure with humidity around 50% but dry substrate. It moulted again on Sep 22, 2024. The molt was approx. 2.5" DSL, 1" BL After that it didn't surface from its burrow and 3 weeks later with it ignoring all food and never surfacing, I decided to check on it and it appeared severely dehydrated. I managed to make it drink Ringer's solution [1] and I placed it in an ICU. It has been in an ICU container ever since with ever worsening DKS signs (erratic leg movements, sections of legs 1 progressively non-mobile from the extremities inwards). Once or twice it ate a pre-killed cricket that I placed under its mouth or drank a drop of mealworm juice. To my surprise yesterday it moulted. I was hoping it may molt but I was sure it was not going to be able to exit from the molt but it did. I don't know yet it there are any signs of improvement of the DKS. I will add an update as the situation evolves. Here is a picture of this tarantula in its ICU next to its moult. My question: Has anyone had any experience with tarantulas with DKS for nearly 6 months and then moulting?

Thanks for your input. View attachment 490479

[1] 1.Braun, M. E., Heatley, J. J. & Chitty, J. Clinical Techniques of Invertebrates. Vet. Clin. North Am.: Exot. Anim. Pr. 9, 205–221 (2006). The composition of Ringer's solution described is: sodium chloride 11.104 g/L, potassium chloride 0.149 g/L, calcium chloride dehydrate 0.588 g/L, magnesium chloride hexahydrate 0.813 g/L, and sodium phosphate heptahydrate 0.268 g/L.

Not had any experience with DKS myself but I did read on here somewhere they can moult out of it. Gawna be keeping an eye here keep us updated and good luck.

 

[TheraMygale]

I was meant to understand A seemanni need a certain level of moisture in the sub. Do people keep them dry? Some do i guess.

but i would have kept mine in a fossorial type enclosure, with gradients of moisture.

this, of course, has no relevancy on DKS. But perhaps on overall health and hydration.

thank you for sharing and i will be following this thread.

the abdomen sure looks very small after a molt. I know they are more often then not, smaller after a molt, but thats very small compared to what i am experiencing with my own tarantulas.

i hope uour tarantula makes it.

 

[fcat]

Can you describe the movements? How were you able to confirm it was DKS rather than dehydration and hydraulic failure? Do you have any video?

Only cure for DKS is molting I thought...

Reading this again I just realized you posted the composition of lactated ringers, an IV solution. It's what I use to hydrate pregnant and burn patients and is prescription most places but you can buy someone's product labeled as such. Did you inject your tarantula? Did you let it drink this?!

This is not DKS, this is dehydration... The evidence you listed being barricaded and the usual entry approach of dry sub and just a water dish echoed elsewhere can not be applied to this species. They need moist sub at the lower levels at all times. The symptoms you were seeing and will see until it hydrates will persist. Including the death curl.

DKS is not a term to be thrown around lightly.

Tarantulas use muscles to extend their legs and without a functioning cardiovascular system will show weakness, ataxia (uncoordinated walking) and curled legs. They get most of their moisture requirements from food. Any time you have dry substrate and a barricaded animal you are 99% running the risk of cardiovascular compromise...and 1% exposure because the only exposure down there is the substrate or if you managed to put a feeder in. After that they usually become too dicoordinated to eat or drink.

There's one person I am aware of who has an old post that may have actually cured DKS by inducing a fever (higher temps than you would be comfortable and for far too long) and then it molted. Your T would've dessicated faster if you cured it this way.

ICUs are a death trap. You can't manipulate it until it hardens. The smallest injury could do it in because it doesn't have a lot of hemolymph to spare by the looks of it. They can quickly turn into petri dishes. Bacteria and fungal infections present new problems. You have no "control" in this experiment because you have created more variables.

I had a sling that came with two broken fangs and a thin abdomen. It couldn't eat. And then it molted. It took one meal and then immediately barricaded. If I told you it showed symptoms of DKS after the molt, would you think it got poisoned or would you blame dehydration? Since I couldn't force it to eat I kept the lower levels moist. It's symptoms were wobbling and twitching when it walked, which gave the appearance of ataxia. But it always walked with intention, never took of flailing. One leg would curl at rest. A few months have gone by, and it's completely fine. No molt. It didn't eat again until yesterday. I keep the substrate hydrated which allowed for two things...prevention of my T drying out via respiration, and possibly hydration through capillary effect.

Here is a video from an old post started by a scientist. You'll see some obvious poisoning mentioned...flea treatment, pesticides...there is a video that does look like DKS but in a communal, how does only one T get exposed, and again, dry husbandry...but these erratic movements are more indicative of it not being a husbandry issue but I still wouldn't rule it out.

Dyskinetic syndrome (dks)

Nicotine it's the basis for the pesticide roundup, one of the most powerful on Earth. Passive smoke had been proven harmful to humans. Don’t lots of cities spray pesticides to keep mosquitoes populations down ?

arachnoboards.com

Boina is mentioned in this post, that one person I mentioned earlier. There are other mentions of bacteria and fungi theories, which ICUs promote.

I have an old post with video of my X immanis showing continuous movememts and curling of the legs. Symptoms started a few days before it molted. I just so happen to have been treating a punctured abdomen...fluid loss...dehydration...and hours before he molted I made the decision to euthanize. When I came back to do it a few hours later, he had molted. I didn't fix anything, they can't even drink when the molting process begins because the external parts are disconnected from the internal parts Would you call that DKS? I ruled it as an extended attempt to molt...it appeared to me he didn't have the blood pressure to pop his carapace. Non stop swimming motion. For days. Curled legs, biting the substrate. But all fingers pointed to dehydration. I was told there was nothing wrong with him...

PXL_20231107_020033614.TS.mp4

drive.google.com

 

[drrjn]

So today I refreshed the ICU and took a moment to make a little video to document her reactions to touch. Still not normal.

Also took the chance to sex the molt and it is a female.

 

[fcat]

Would you say the behavior is identical now or has there been improvement?

To be honest I don't recall manipulating close to a molt so I personally couldn't say how abnormal this is. She's not small so it will take at least a week to harden and I doubt she can move much but I would be shocked if she could run. I do tend to anthropomorphize...but she knows she vulnerable and might want to flee but can't. I'd take that lid and set it back inside her original enclosure, near the water dish....and bury the dish so it's just barely above the substrate line...you want to make it as easy for her to drink as possible.

Also, many Ts will suck on the molt to reclaim vital moisture. Moving forward keep this in mind when it comes to sexing...most people use soap to do it...so she can't have it back. I'm guilty of soaking it in water because I couldn't wait either but I gave it right back. But usually I put a few drops of water on it if I can without disturbing since I know it's usually their first stop.

 

[TheraMygale]

I do tend to anthropomorphize...but she knows she vulnerable

That is definitely not anthropomorphizing. It doesnt matter how we choose to word it: animals know when they are sick/weak. They might not feel it like us, but they have their ways of acting upon it.

so im with you.

DKS is still just a “series of symptoms” vs a real diagnosis.

if this is dehydration, then a person adds waters. If its DKS symptoms, so far we know heat was all that mostly helped.

and i bet metabolism plays a role. When its not pesticide or toxin related anyways. And well, thats a whole other spectrum.

i dont believe an insect/invert recovers from pesticide/toxin.

 

[Brewser]

Suggest allowing A. seemanni to recover in his/her Enclosure.
Hopeful for a Healthy Spider.