Monster Burmese Python found in the Everglades

Tarac

Arachnolord
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
618
Conspriracy theory?
Nah, this is a rumor that is circulating, she did not invent the false inference herself but rather likely picked it up in a blog somewhere or something along those lines. Most likely people who want to believe that there isn't an underbelly to their hobby have read the paper that says genetic diversity is limited and then drawn there own conclusions which are not supported by the published data or the scientific group responsible for executing the study. It's a problem with science in general- trained professionals do the work and then untrained people make the public aware by trying to "summarize" what they think it means without having a good understanding of the content. Conclusions are drawn because they sound like reasonable arguments but they are in fact not supported by the data in the study being quoted, usually because the people reporting the results do not have a grasp on the nature of the study or the scope of the potential variables involved. Ultimately it's a bunch of flawed logic being passed around like the truth with a link to the paper that was misinterpreted in the first place. The next guy reads the title, skims to the end (skipping over the models, math, figures and data, the real "content" of the literature, because he/she is not trained to interpret it and finds it too challenging to be worth tackling as a hobbyist) or maybe just reads the abstract and draws the same flawed conclusion that other unqualified people have told them is really there. Surprise! It is not.

No kind of DNA work will ever be able to tell us how those first few pythons got here, period, so that is a clear cut way to show that this is not a conspiracy but an all too common misunderstanding of valid scientific data. We know that there are several introductions through DNA, we know that one line is dominant and variability outside of that line is quite limited to date.

BUT that does not say anything about the origin of the line, those are the flawed arguments that are being used to excuse the pet trade from being a contributer to this mess. All this tells us is that the pythons are closely related to one another- could be from a single breeding facility, could be low diversity in captive bred pythons in the area or in general, could be that this line predates all others by decades and so is found at a higher frequency in the wild or could be one big fat 20 foot 250 lb preggo female somehow eluded all notice and escaped from a shipping port and crawled all the way to the Everglades where she promptly had 100 babies that have formed the bulk of the population we see today. DNA will never be able to clarify that. All it can do is tell us about the relationship of the animals to one another. It does tell us that several distinct pythons were reproducing there and it also suggests that hobbyists are not all buying every python they can so they can dump it in the glades. Most of these are probably from whatever original pairs were introduced, not a ton of separate introductions. But still no way knowing how they got there, certainly not using DNA.

So funny- people used to be so skeptical of DNA back in the day, now it is the answer to things it can't really even answer!
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
Really? Can you please provide a link to that study? I didn't realize anyone had genotyped all the assorted python lineages found in the pet trade and eliminated them as possible sources of the populations found in the Everglades.

Intentional release or not, if you had seen Miami after Andrew in person, i.e. the pet stores completely exploded all over US1 not to mention private residence, zoos, everything else, you would be very suspicious of the origins of many of Florida's exotics too. I did, I was there for clean up on Douglas Road just south of US1 in the heart of downtown Miami. It's a simple path of least resistance kind of thing. A lot of new invasive species appeared after that with the expected lag in sightings as the populations were establishing and growing. One detail that makes it difficult to refute the pet trade connection is the relative lack of invasive herps that are NOT sold in pet stores. Seems odd that only herps we like to keep as pets would decide to stow away in shipping pallets or what have you in their country of origin and escape here.

All genetic data that I am aware of to date only suggests a few blood lines of closely related animals which has no bearing on whether or not they were released, and there are more than one distinct line so there is evidence of at least several independent introductions.

I'm sorry but I won't buy that claim until I see the data myself- since you put it out there you must have this report yourself, RIGHT?... wouldn't want to spread unwarranted rumors like the AR now would we?

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/01/23/1115226109.full.pdf+html
Here is an interview with the FL biologist, Dr. Sean Heflick, who was one of the biologists who actually conducted the genetic testing, in which he answers that question not once, but twice: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/epis...st-shawn-heflick-answers-your-questions/5564/ . He is quite adamant that the snakes all derived from a small genetic base and that it would actually have been impossible for sporadic releases of random animals over an extended period of time to have produced the resulting population that we now have in the Everglades. He is quite clear that a natural disaster, Hurricane Andrew, is responsible for the present situation, NOT "irresponsible pet owners". He and Dr. Frank Mazzoti have been to the two biologists who have conducted the greatest volume of research on these snakes from the start and have worked hands-on, in the field and in the lab, with them, so they would have the most answers and the most well-researched answers at that.

pitbulllady
 

Tarac

Arachnolord
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
618
Here is an interview with the FL biologist, Dr. Sean Heflick, who was one of the biologists who actually conducted the genetic testing, in which he answers that question not once, but twice: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/epis...st-shawn-heflick-answers-your-questions/5564/ . He is quite adamant that the snakes all derived from a small genetic base and that it would actually have been impossible for sporadic releases of random animals over an extended period of time to have produced the resulting population that we now have in the Everglades. He is quite clear that a natural disaster, Hurricane Andrew, is responsible for the present situation, NOT "irresponsible pet owners". He and Dr. Frank Mazzoti have been to the two biologists who have conducted the greatest volume of research on these snakes from the start and have worked hands-on, in the field and in the lab, with them, so they would have the most answers and the most well-researched answers at that.

pitbulllady
Hahaha, you point us to a TV personality... it's worse than I thought. Impugn the TV for dramatizing the pythons and then turn around and refer us to it for "reliable" information about it. Contrary to what you may think (or what he make think of himself) he is not the leading expert on this front nor did he conduct most of the said research he is discussing. This work is primarily being done at FIU. Here is the real study from which he has drawn those same perverted conclusions:

reptile-nation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/FloridaBurmGenetics.pdf

(copy paste into browser the above, it will open)

If you don't want to parse through all of the details of how the study was structured and which molecular techniques were used to determine the relationships for this, you can do as most do and skim to the end. Check page 8, the discussion, where it says in no uncertain terms, and I quote:

"Our results indicate that the Python molurus bivittatus populations in Everglades National
Park are not genetically structured. However, there are competing hypotheses for this lack of
structure. It is possible that the python population in the Park is freely interbreeding or
panmictic. There are no significant geographical barriers in ENP to this species as the Burmese
pythons are adept swimmers and climbers, and radio tracking of individual snakes has revealed
movement across large distances in the park (Mazotti et al., 2007). Alternatively, lack of genetic
differentiation may indicate a population originating from a genetically depauperate source
population in the pet trade."

This is real literature, not some crack pot getting his jollies chasing big scary snakes on TV... "On next, after HillBilly Handfishing..." Once again, the main conclusion from this study is that DNA cannot tell you anything about the origins of these animals. All it can tell you is how they relate to one another and what wild populations they may have originally been derived from. Hmmm... you cannot say for sure they are pet trade (and note this is not saying from pet owners, it is from the trade- the sequestering of high numbers of the animals in the US with the intent to distribute) but you can absolutely say that there have been several introductions over a period of decades not corresponding only with the Andrew disaster. The authors- PhDs, not masters in ecology that got a tv show- will never say "we are certain these did or did not come from XXX" because, being actual experts they know you cannot support a claim like that using this data. But they do very clearly suggest that these are the possible answers:

"This lack of genetic differentiation could be the
result of a freely interbreeding panmictic population, or alternatively, isolated populations
separately introduced from a genetically uniform captive-bred source population"

You have to use a discerning eye when you are picking your sources. TV is not a good one. You should look up that guy's credentials before you start telling us he's the expert that did most of the work himself. He's barely qualified to talk about it on TV. Lol

Here's this guy's website... you tell me if he looks like anything more than a TV personality...

http://shawnheflick.com/
 
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lizardminion

Arachnolord
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
626
Hahaha, you point us to a TV personality... it's worse than I thought. Impugn the TV for dramatizing the pythons and then turn around and refer us to it for "reliable" information about it. Contrary to what you may think (or what he make think of himself) he is not the leading expert on this front nor did he conduct most of the said research he is discussing. This work is primarily being done at FIU. Here is the real study from which he has drawn those same perverted conclusions:

reptile-nation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/FloridaBurmGenetics.pdf

(copy paste into browser the above, it will open)

If you don't want to parse through all of the details of how the study was structured and which molecular techniques were used to determine the relationships for this, you can do as most do and skim to the end. Check page 8, the discussion, where it says in no uncertain terms, and I quote:

"Our results indicate that the Python molurus bivittatus populations in Everglades National
Park are not genetically structured. However, there are competing hypotheses for this lack of
structure. It is possible that the python population in the Park is freely interbreeding or
panmictic. There are no significant geographical barriers in ENP to this species as the Burmese
pythons are adept swimmers and climbers, and radio tracking of individual snakes has revealed
movement across large distances in the park (Mazotti et al., 2007). Alternatively, lack of genetic
differentiation may indicate a population originating from a genetically depauperate source
population in the pet trade."

This is real literature, not some crack pot getting his jollies chasing big scary snakes on TV... "On next, after HillBilly Handfishing..." Once again, the main conclusion from this study is that DNA cannot tell you anything about the origins of these animals. All it can tell you is how they relate to one another and what wild populations they may have originally been derived from. Hmmm... you cannot say for sure they are pet trade (and note this is not saying from pet owners, it is from the trade- the sequestering of high numbers of the animals in the US with the intent to distribute) but you can absolutely say that there have been several introductions over a period of decades not corresponding only with the Andrew disaster. The authors- PhDs, not masters in ecology that got a tv show- will never say "we are certain these did or did not come from XXX" because, being actual experts they know you cannot support a claim like that using this data. But they do very clearly suggest that these are the possible answers:

"This lack of genetic differentiation could be the
result of a freely interbreeding panmictic population, or alternatively, isolated populations
separately introduced from a genetically uniform captive-bred source population"

You have to use a discerning eye when you are picking your sources. TV is not a good one. You should look up that guy's credentials before you start telling us he's the expert that did most of the work himself. He's barely qualified to talk about it on TV. Lol

Here's this guy's website... you tell me if he looks like anything more than a TV personality...

http://shawnheflick.com/
You do realize no one will ever want to listen to you if you are going to sound like some arrogant @$$, right? Someone may or may not agree with the statements you are posing, but in a debate, you want to leave out some of that tone and sound more formal. By the way you worded your post, you sounded quite immature, which in turn makes you look unintelligent and nobody someone would want to agree with, nor except any proposed facts from.

That said, Shawn Heflick has a graduate degree in biology, as well as helped form USARK, and along with USARK, they have preformed the most studies in regards to the Burmese python issue in the Everglades compared to other agencies who have been involved. They have also worked along side the USFWS with this. Along with research, they also are contributing to eradicating the invasive reptile.
The only morph showing up in the Everglades is the normal/wildtype and this only contributes to evidence of the escaped pythons after hurricane Andrew.
Even then, as it has always been regurgitated over and over, this is still Florida's problem, not the entire nation's.
 
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Louise E. Rothstein

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
430
People forget that the Everglades hosted "wild boars" before the Ice Age.
Although these ancient PECCARIES were technically "not truly pigs" modern peccaries do not know that-and their ancient relatives would not have either.

---------- Post added 10-10-2012 at 08:26 PM ----------

There were also ancient wildcats,wild dogs,and such an awful lot else that many of those thriving "invaders" are more like "replacements."
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
People forget that the Everglades hosted "wild boars" before the Ice Age.
Although these ancient PECCARIES were technically "not truly pigs" modern peccaries do not know that-and their ancient relatives would not have either.

---------- Post added 10-10-2012 at 08:26 PM ----------

There were also ancient wildcats,wild dogs,and such an awful lot else that many of those thriving "invaders" are more like "replacements."
That's basically how I see it, too. When a species disappears from an ecosystem, for whatever reasons, SOMETHING will eventually come in to fill that niche. That's why we have coyotes here in the east; we eliminated the wolves, so the 'yotes moved in and were far more successful than the wolves ever were. Southern FL had large constrictor snakes, jaguars, ocelots, peccaries and a lot of other animals that we generally associate with the Amazon rainforest. The Ice Age, especially the last one known as the "Younger Dryas Period"(which might have been initiated by a comet impacting the Laurentide Ice Sheet in the Great Lakes region), wiped out a lot of those tropical animals, but now the climate is warming back up, a phenomena which a growing number of climatologists are considering a "correction" from those glaciation periods, and one way or the other, many of the animals which once populated the south FL area, or at least something similar, are going to repopulate.

pitbulllady
 

SamuraiSid

Arachnodemon
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Messages
758
That's basically how I see it, too. When a species disappears from an ecosystem, for whatever reasons, SOMETHING will eventually come in to fill that niche. That's why we have coyotes here in the east; we eliminated the wolves, so the 'yotes moved in and were far more successful than the wolves ever were.
If the coyotes are more succesful, havnt they overstepped their niche? If Im understanding everything correctly, I think the introduction of coyote holding top spot as apex predator (they are, right?) will force the entire system to reengineer itself, meaning new niches for everybody and new population figures. Although I think Im being overly dramatic considering we're talking wolves and coyotes, instead of introducing a new species altogether. I just want to understand;)

If Im understanding Tarac correctly, the issue isnt "the environment will take care of itself", but the fact that it will take its sweet time and us short lived humans will notice a negative impact to the economy because of it.
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
If the coyotes are more succesful, havnt they overstepped their niche? If Im understanding everything correctly, I think the introduction of coyote holding top spot as apex predator (they are, right?) will force the entire system to reengineer itself, meaning new niches for everybody and new population figures. Although I think Im being overly dramatic considering we're talking wolves and coyotes, instead of introducing a new species altogether. I just want to understand;)

If Im understanding Tarac correctly, the issue isnt "the environment will take care of itself", but the fact that it will take its sweet time and us short lived humans will notice a negative impact to the economy because of it.
It's difficult to say how much more of an environmental impact the coyotes in the east have had than their wolf predecessors, because no one ever took the time to study the impact of the wolf on the environment. No one was even concerned about the environment at that time, only expanding our own boundaries and our own financial interests. Predators in general were seen as bad, things to be eliminated by any means necessary. Coyotes ARE more adaptable than wolves, that much we do know; they can take advantage of habitats that would not support a wolf population for various reasons.

The thing with the Everglades is that this ecosystem was severely damaged before the pythons ever entered the scene. Development and agricultural interests, especially the sugar cane industry, had already seriously altered the entire system, diverting water flow, draining the water, destroying entire habitats, and now FL politicians are lining up to be the hero who rides in to save the day by restoring the Everglades to what it was before the FL land boom, before the sugar cane plantations, before the tourists and "snow birds", and they want that recognition NOW, while they are still in office. It's true that often it takes longer than a couple of human generations for an environment to "take care of itself", and people are impatient. The politicians need a scapegoat, something tangible they can go after, a real-life dragon to slay, so that they can reap the benefits of being seen as a hero now. You can overlook truth and facts when you are in politics, and this is very much a political issue.

pitbulllady
 

ZergFront

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
1,955
To echo what you say, when I was a kid I used to find ring necked snakes, see cardinals and orioles, numerous black racers around my old mans house. Nowadays I barely see any of those animals. Maybe cats are to blame, who knows but something is happening to which I never see these animals anymore.
Yeah. You know where I live, we have so many aggressive species of birds; ravens, mockingbirds, bluejays, etc. I rarely ever see any type of little colorful birds or songbirds. Very sad. I got to say it was cool seeing a falcon with fresh kill on my lawn, though, especially since it didn't seem too bothered we watched it.

The ravens and crows are getting annoying, however... just everywhere!
 

lizardminion

Arachnolord
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
626
Yeah. You know where I live, we have so many aggressive species of birds; ravens, mockingbirds, bluejays, etc. I rarely ever see any type of little colorful birds or songbirds. Very sad. I got to say it was cool seeing a falcon with fresh kill on my lawn, though, especially since it didn't seem too bothered we watched it.

The ravens and crows are getting annoying, however... just everywhere!
Good thing we have guns, right?
 

Aarantula

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
378
"Because of its size, the record-breaking female snake also was briefly employed in the project, fitted with a radio transmitter, GPS and accelerometers that measured its precise body movements every four seconds. Before it could lay any eggs, it was recaptured on April 19, after 38 days in the wild, and euthanized, Hart said.

After scientists are done with the record-setting reptile, it will be mounted for display at the museum on the University of Florida campus for about five years then returned for display at the park."

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/...thon-caught-in-the-florida.html#storylink=cpy

This is suuuuuch bull!!! Way to go scientists, capture and kill anything that THEY feel the Earth can't handle!!!! This article is a joke! First they praise the incredible size etc. about this magnificant creature then finish it off by explaining that they killed a pregnant mother. Nice job...
Humans discust me...
 

LV-426

Arachnobaron
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
497
"Because of its size, the record-breaking female snake also was briefly employed in the project, fitted with a radio transmitter, GPS and accelerometers that measured its precise body movements every four seconds. Before it could lay any eggs, it was recaptured on April 19, after 38 days in the wild, and euthanized, Hart said.

After scientists are done with the record-setting reptile, it will be mounted for display at the museum on the University of Florida campus for about five years then returned for display at the park."

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/...thon-caught-in-the-florida.html#storylink=cpy

This is suuuuuch bull!!! Way to go scientists, capture and kill anything that THEY feel the Earth can't handle!!!! This article is a joke! First they praise the incredible size etc. about this magnificant creature then finish it off by explaining that they killed a pregnant mother. Nice job...
Humans discust me...
It's an invasive species and should be killed on site.
 

Aarantula

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
378
It's an invasive species and should be killed on site.
Humans are INDEED the most invasive and destructive species on this planet so I don't buy your response as well thought out. WE are a virus... this snake was just trying to survive.


*By the way, AWESOME screen name and quote. I'm the BIGGEST Aliens fan you will EVER meet!
 

LV-426

Arachnobaron
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
497
Humans are INDEED the most invasive and destructive species on this planet so I don't buy your response as well thought out. WE are a virus... this snake was just trying to survive.


*By the way, AWESOME screen name and quote. I'm the BIGGEST Aliens fan you will EVER meet!
Thanks, trust me I know humans are the scourge of the planet. I wouldn't mind 1/2 the worlds population wiped out.
 
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