Monster Burmese Python found in the Everglades

SamuraiSid

Arachnodemon
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Messages
758
Wow thats a big snake.

So.... whats the problem? Honestly I dont fully understand, and Im pretty ignorant when it comes to ecosystems, but wont the environment eventually right itself and find a new equilibrium with room the these magnificient beasts? Or will these pythons eventually just decimate everything?
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
11,512
Wow thats a big snake.

So.... whats the problem? Honestly I dont fully understand, and Im pretty ignorant when it comes to ecosystems, but wont the environment eventually right itself and find a new equilibrium with room the these magnificient beasts? Or will these pythons eventually just decimate everything?
The environment will always find equilibrium eventually. There are two problematic factors to that though. First, the obsession the average moron... excuse, American couch potato has with big bad monster beasties of any make and model as exemplified in that newspaper article, and then the depredation of native animals as things adjust.
 

Louise E. Rothstein

Arachnobaron
Old Timer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
430
There were snakes that size before the Ice Age.
Things had already adjusted before the Ice Age threw things off.
However,there was some serious time to get adjusted in those days...humans didn't speed the onset of earlier episodes of global warming and no human vehicles were speeding unfamiliar species to the state of Florida or to anywhere else.

Since humans are engaged in both of those problematic activities now we may expect to encounter some problems before anything can adjust because the speed of change has been speeded up much too much.

However,snakes that size have been there before.

And they did not destroy the Everglades.
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
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Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
There were snakes that size before the Ice Age.
Things had already adjusted before the Ice Age threw things off.
However,there was some serious time to get adjusted in those days...humans didn't speed the onset of earlier episodes of global warming and no human vehicles were speeding unfamiliar species to the state of Florida or to anywhere else.

Since humans are engaged in both of those problematic activities now we may expect to encounter some problems before anything can adjust because the speed of change has been speeded up much too much.

However,snakes that size have been there before.

And they did not destroy the Everglades.
Beat me to it, Louise! Yes, indeed, there were some very large Boids in Florida prior to the Ice Age, as fossils suggest. Now, while these were not PYTHONS, per se, but related to the modern Boa Constrictors and more likely, Anacondas, they were still very impressive big honkin' constrictor snakes. AND, I find it utterly ridiculous that people still insist that nothing will eat a Burmese Python. Those things don't hatch out as 17-footers. Anything that will eat a native snake will eat a young Burm, and that's a lot of animals in south FL! Gators eat them, and another even more dangerous and persistent invasive species, the feral hog, will certainly eat them. Hogs are especially fond of snake meat, and unlike solitary species that the Burm will prey on, those babies run in gangs, and stick up for one another. Tangling with a herd of wild hogs is like running into a wall of chain saws, and the Everglades is overrun with those critters and not ONE thing is being done about it, either. Unlike snakes, hogs actually DO alter the land itself through their incessant rooting, and again, unlike snakes, they also destroy native plants as well as preying on animals. No one mentions the hogs, though, because when you mention "hogs and pigs" people think of "Babe" and "Wilbur" from "Charlotte's Web", not bad-tempered, 300-lb. beasts with six-inch tusks for slicing and dicing, so people tend to get all upset about the notion of killing them. Mention snakes, though, and most people get a bad case of the "KILL-IT-WITH-FIRE" heebie-jeebies. Also conveniently left out of the picture is the fact that HUMANS have already irreparably damaged the Everglades, by diverting water from it to the sugar cane fields and housing developments and golf courses and resorts, and by building major highways through it, and this happened long before anyone in the US thought of keeping a Python as a pet. Another conveniently left-out fact is that there are a lot of much more insidious invasives in the Everglades that aren't even animals, but PLANTS, like Kudzu and Hydrilla, which do more damage than the animals, but they aren't exciting enough to warrant a fear-mongering news headline.

pitbulllady
 

Shrike

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
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Messages
1,598
but PLANTS, like Kudzu and Hydrilla, which do more damage than the animals, but they aren't exciting enough to warrant a fear-mongering news headline.
The plant that ate the South? Sounds pretty scary if you ask me ;)

I agree though. Big snakes make for big headlines. Burms don't reach impressive, alligator swallowing proportions over night. They start out small and are on the menu for countless other species. I'm not so much worried about Burms consumption of larger animals such as alligators or deer; I think it's the predation on small to mid-sized species (birds, rabbits, opossums, etc) that may shake things up. We're not going to see anything on the scale of Guam with the introduction of the brown tree snake. I doubt that Burms will extirpate any native species (the Key Largo wood rat might be an exception). As you and others pointed out, snakes have always played a large role in the ecology of the Everglades.

I worry more about nutrient pollution in the Everglades than giant pythons.
 

Tarac

Arachnolord
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
618
There is the Key Deer as well- and a number of other rare, smaller animals. Mainly an issue because they are not native and no other comparable predator exists there so there is a possible vulnerability of some of our native species. Documented decline in small mammal populations already which means less food for other predators aside from the direct injury to the prey species. It's hard to know exactly what ramifications the introduction of a new species can have. Some are harmless over time, some are terrible.

Easy to scold the papers and news for making a fuss about it because so many of us are sympathetic to these kinds of creatures (burms, etc.) and they do tend to be quite dramatic. But think of it this way- imagine that some other animal we feel sympathy for is introduced into Chile and it happens to like tarantulas. Sure, nature will balance out as it always has. But is it worth allowing this new, non-native predator to run wild, eating all the Chilean tarantulas and possibly more just because we know that nature will re-balance? At some point you are choosing a side and for me it is more important to preserve the ecosystem and it's native inhabitants because it's much harder to predict what might happen and how many species could be potentially be affected than it is to predict what will happen to the burmese python populations of the world if we eradicate them from Florida. It is sad to kill any animal in these circumstances no question, of course it is not their fault they are here. But it's also very sad to watch an ecosystem collapse because people cannot be responsible for the animals they bring into this country and their homes. Yes, the Everglades face lots of threats from agriculture and development. Why add insult to injury? And at this stage we cannot say whether or not the burm, or any of the other introduced pet trade animals, will have a major effect on it or not. Usually you do not know these things until it is beyond the point of no return. Best to err on the side of caution I think. I would rather not find out how bad the problem can be just because I like burms. I like the Everglades too.

That reasoning- nature will re-balance itself- is precisely how we justify people destroying everything. Nature will rebalance, go ahead and chop down every last drop of virgin forest. May as well kill everything but soy and wheat and corn and domesticated cattle and chickens and just be done with it, right? Nature will re-balance. Or is there some virtue in trying to preserve diversity after all?

Please review this:

https://public.myfwc.com/crossdoi/fundedprojects/GrantDetails.aspx?ID=164

Look how much crap the pet trade and irresponsible idiots (hobbyists, importers of animals and products alike, etc.) have brought in. I am all about private patronage of exotic species but at a certain point it becomes unreasonable to think that one of these many many things won't have a deleterious effect on the native ecology here. The vast majority of these animals have one thing in common- they are almost all animals that any average idiot can buy in a pet store. It's not right, for the exotic animal or for the native. I don't have any clue how it should be handled because there are many virtues to keeping exotics responsibly but it is a problem, no question about it.
 
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Deftones90

Arachnosquire
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
135
They really do act like it's this devastating problem and it's really not. Their numbers are seriously exagerrated. There's plenty of things to keep them in check as other posts have stated. Florida has MUCH bigger problems on their hands than the damn burms.
 

Shrike

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
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Messages
1,598
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of Burms in the Everglades. You're right, it's appropriate to err on the side of caution since we don't know what the pythons' ultimate impact will be. I just don't think their effect on the ecosystem will be as catastrophic as what occurred in places such as Guam. And I do get tired of pop media coverage of this issue. CNN and Yahoo get their hooks in to the story and all of a sudden we've got Snakes on a Plane-like hysteria. I'm sick of these mother <edit> pythons in this mother <edit> swamp!

I don't want pythons in the Everglades. It wouldn't bother me a bit if they were eradicated (even if that isn't likely).

Or is there some virtue in trying to preserve diversity after all?
Absolutely. Unfortunately, exotic invasions under the right conditions are almost impossible to control or reverse. The question is how far are we willing to go in ensuring they don't occur in the first place.
 
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Tarac

Arachnolord
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
618
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of Burms in the Everglades. You're right, it's appropriate to err on the side of caution since we don't know what the pythons' ultimate impact will be. I just don't think their effect on the ecosystem will be as catastrophic as what occurred in places such as Guam. And I do get tired of pop media coverage of this issue. CNN and Yahoo get their hooks in to the story and all of a sudden we've got Snakes on a Plane-like hysteria. I'm sick of these mother****** pythons in this mother****** swamp!

I don't want pythons in the Everglades. It wouldn't bother me a bit if they were eradicated (even if that isn't likely).



Absolutely. Unfortunately, exotic invasions under the right conditions are almost impossible to control or reverse. The question is how far are we willing to go in ensuring they don't occur in the first place?
It is really hard to qualify whether or not the burms will be as catastrophic as the house snake in Guam. Like Guam, we don't have this kind or scale of predator naturally, not even gators. I will reserve judgment for now on that front, it's impossible to predict one way or the other beyond saying that we don't know because we don't have anything similar.

I completely agree with you on the news front- why we are so hysterical over a few pythons and not kittens is beyond me. Actually, it's not- people just don't find snakes agreeable in general. And kittens don't generally grow up to eat people where the rare burm or other large serpent has ocassionally made a meal out of a small person which of course gets attention immediately, the same way shark and alligator attacks do. Heck, even Sigfried and Roy's captive bred and raised Tiger was national news when it attacked one of them as are most other incidents of this nature. Understandably we are more fascinated and afraid of animals that can potentially consume us, however unlikely it might be. But as far as focusing on it as an "invasive" or even a remote chance of attack- let's get real and start looking at cats and dogs and feral hogs.

On the other hand, if we don't have some coverage then the problem will just continue, with more and more large snakes, crocodilians, monitors, monkeys, etc. being introduced and establishing every year. At least if there is a witch hunt it will slow the process a bit. It's sad it has to happen this way with so many gorgeous and innocent animals being killed because a person (the most noxious and invasive species ever to roam the earth) can't be responsible, but it is better than turning a blind eye like we do for the aforementioned "domesticated" animals. We just accept there presence and do very very little to control them.

The list in the link has the native and non-native species that are already shown to be established. There are innumerable more species that have been collected (it covers a mere 4% of the total specimens, grant funding ran out before the other 53K or so could be processed) and just not shown to be established yet.

This is a list of species that are found in the Everglades alone, not necessarily known to be breeding but not excluded yet either:

http://www.evergladescisma.org/species/

Freaking insane, really. There is no way that at least a few of these vast numbers of exotics will prove to be very harmful to our native ecology over time. Some of them already are in fact.

---------- Post added 08-15-2012 at 12:12 PM ----------

They really do act like it's this devastating problem and it's really not. Their numbers are seriously exagerrated. There's plenty of things to keep them in check as other posts have stated. Florida has MUCH bigger problems on their hands than the damn burms.
The presence of numerous, very large (e.g. larger than any other native predator by a long shot) breeding adults contradicts that.

Yes there are a lot of other issues here and everywhere else on earth. But dismissing the problem as small in the grand scheme is not unlike telling someone on Chemo not to worry about the common cold they just contracted because they have bigger problems to worry about. It could be the insult that topples the house of cards completely. You cannot say otherwise at this point, all we know is that it is affecting the native populations we have monitored. And of course so little financing available to watch these things go on, we have very little of the picture exposed so far. Always better to be cautious with these kinds of things.

I think of the recent establishment of the red bay ambrosia beetle which carries a pathogen that is fatal to members of Lauraceae in the NW. It came from China and was ignored because it was only affecting "unimportant" trees- too bad that family makes up a huge percentage of tropical flora over most of the NW, it's the biggest family in Florida tropical hammocks and top 10 in the world. One major affect, which will impact people all over Latin America, is that the officials who designated this as affecting only "unimportant" trees somehow overlooked the Avocado which shows little to no resistance at all. Trees are dying everywhere now and the invasion has become unstoppable because it got so little funding and so little attention that it was allowed to persist beyond manageability. Not only will we likely lose many many ecosystems but we will also see the livelihoods of many people destroyed.

Best to be cautious and treat everything as a potential disaster on this front because you really never know. Invasives are not something to dismiss even if they are being demonized because they happen to be a giant snake and not a small, unnoticeable beetle with an even less noticeable fungus on board. It's very short sighted to treat them as "not that bad" since there is no way to ensure they are not a major threat except to control them. One of those hindsight issues. Best to be overly dramatic than overly nonchalant IMO.
 

LV-426

Arachnobaron
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
497
The point of me posting this article was to inform people that these things are still out there. PitBullLady, I am also happy to announce that in Miami-Dade county they upheld the 23 year old pit bill ban. Glad to see some humans have common sense.
 

Aviara

Arachnoknight
Joined
Jun 26, 2012
Messages
261
Perhaps instead of emphasizing cleanup, more attention should instead be turned to making sure these situations stop happening. Too many invasive species have been carelessly deposited around the globe in places they don't belong. To the general public the burmese pythons are frightening, but the truly terrifying issue at hand is not giant constrictors roaming the everglades and swallowing our children. It's the fact that we have witnessed the damage that invasive species continue to cause, and yet we continue to deposit animal and plant life where it does not belong. Invasive plants and insects have done untold damage far more extensive than any invasive vertebrate can cause. They've been permitted, even encouraged, to spread because of human doings, human mistakes and human ignorance.

The burmese pythons have spawned a partially-passed "python ban". Now it is illegal to cross U.S. state lines with many of the large constrictor species. How is this progress? People will still continue to irresponsibly breed and carry these species. They will still continue to release these species and others when they grow "too large", "too expensive", or just become "boring". The real attention should be paid to the vendors and careless breeders who sell these animals to unprepared homes and ignorant buyers. The phenomenon happens with large constrictors, venomous snakes, juvenile monitors, hatchling iguanas, etc. far too frequently. Perhaps a license for ownership should be required, including an examination of the facility and of proper caging and husbandry practices. Perhaps there should be a penalty for producing these animals in excess, or a license for breeding. I firmly believe that these species should be legal to own, BUT only once responsible ownership, proper finances, and the ability to commit long-term is proven. All invasive species are a product of human irresponsibility, and it's time to start educating ourselves and being aware of the consequences of our actions.
 

LV-426

Arachnobaron
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
497
The problem is people buy these animals as babies (pythons and monitors), then as they grow they find out they cant control them, either they dump them in the glades or gives it to someone else (who then eventually doesn't want it and dumps it). It's a vicious cycle. I understand that people have the right to own these animals but some people aren't just up to the task, it requires a lot of dedication to properly keep these animals. Unfortunately with today's demands most people don't have the time to put into them.
 

The Snark

Dumpster Fire of the Gods
Old Timer
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
11,512
Some nesting birds will be threatened by the pythons. They are eating machines when it comes to raiding nests, damaging the nest, eating the young then coiling in the location and waiting for the adults. But then there is another equally serious threat to many species in the Everglades. Idiots stomping and tramping the environs, often armed with guns, out hunting for the pythons and taking shots at anything that moves in the process.
 

Deftones90

Arachnosquire
Joined
Sep 13, 2011
Messages
135
It is really hard to qualify whether or not the burms will be as catastrophic as the house snake in Guam. Like Guam, we don't have this kind or scale of predator naturally, not even gators. I will reserve judgment for now on that front, it's impossible to predict one way or the other beyond saying that we don't know because we don't have anything similar.

I completely agree with you on the news front- why we are so hysterical over a few pythons and not kittens is beyond me. Actually, it's not- people just don't find snakes agreeable in general. And kittens don't generally grow up to eat people where the rare burm or other large serpent has ocassionally made a meal out of a small person which of course gets attention immediately, the same way shark and alligator attacks do. Heck, even Sigfried and Roy's captive bred and raised Tiger was national news when it attacked one of them as are most other incidents of this nature. Understandably we are more fascinated and afraid of animals that can potentially consume us, however unlikely it might be. But as far as focusing on it as an "invasive" or even a remote chance of attack- let's get real and start looking at cats and dogs and feral hogs.

On the other hand, if we don't have some coverage then the problem will just continue, with more and more large snakes, crocodilians, monitors, monkeys, etc. being introduced and establishing every year. At least if there is a witch hunt it will slow the process a bit. It's sad it has to happen this way with so many gorgeous and innocent animals being killed because a person (the most noxious and invasive species ever to roam the earth) can't be responsible, but it is better than turning a blind eye like we do for the aforementioned "domesticated" animals. We just accept there presence and do very very little to control them.

The list in the link has the native and non-native species that are already shown to be established. There are innumerable more species that have been collected (it covers a mere 4% of the total specimens, grant funding ran out before the other 53K or so could be processed) and just not shown to be established yet.

This is a list of species that are found in the Everglades alone, not necessarily known to be breeding but not excluded yet either:

http://www.evergladescisma.org/species/

Freaking insane, really. There is no way that at least a few of these vast numbers of exotics will prove to be very harmful to our native ecology over time. Some of them already are in fact.

---------- Post added 08-15-2012 at 12:12 PM ----------



The presence of numerous, very large (e.g. larger than any other native predator by a long shot) breeding adults contradicts that.

Yes there are a lot of other issues here and everywhere else on earth. But dismissing the problem as small in the grand scheme is not unlike telling someone on Chemo not to worry about the common cold they just contracted because they have bigger problems to worry about. It could be the insult that topples the house of cards completely. You cannot say otherwise at this point, all we know is that it is affecting the native populations we have monitored. And of course so little financing available to watch these things go on, we have very little of the picture exposed so far. Always better to be cautious with these kinds of things.

I think of the recent establishment of the red bay ambrosia beetle which carries a pathogen that is fatal to members of Lauraceae in the NW. It came from China and was ignored because it was only affecting "unimportant" trees- too bad that family makes up a huge percentage of tropical flora over most of the NW, it's the biggest family in Florida tropical hammocks and top 10 in the world. One major affect, which will impact people all over Latin America, is that the officials who designated this as affecting only "unimportant" trees somehow overlooked the Avocado which shows little to no resistance at all. Trees are dying everywhere now and the invasion has become unstoppable because it got so little funding and so little attention that it was allowed to persist beyond manageability. Not only will we likely lose many many ecosystems but we will also see the livelihoods of many people destroyed.

Best to be cautious and treat everything as a potential disaster on this front because you really never know. Invasives are not something to dismiss even if they are being demonized because they happen to be a giant snake and not a small, unnoticeable beetle with an even less noticeable fungus on board. It's very short sighted to treat them as "not that bad" since there is no way to ensure they are not a major threat except to control them. One of those hindsight issues. Best to be overly dramatic than overly nonchalant IMO.
I'm not saying they need to dismiss the problem. The news is making things seem like if you live in FL that your backyard is teaming with giant snakes that are spreading like the the zombie virus in 28 Days Later. Of course these will have some sort of impact on the ecology in the glades. What my first post was getting at was that the python issue in the media's view is unrealistic. The burms and other exotics have been in the glades something like 3 decades. My only question is why NOW is it becoming a "problem" if they've been around so long? They can't possibly be taking over as fast as these news writers insist if they've been around that long.....just my .02 on it all. Regardless the news should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.

Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk 2
 

ZergFront

Arachnoprince
Old Timer
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
1,955
The environment will always find equilibrium eventually. There are two problematic factors to that though. First, the obsession the average moron... excuse, American couch potato has with big bad monster beasties of any make and model as exemplified in that newspaper article, and then the depredation of native animals as things adjust.
Yeah, no kidding. Big, "bad" snakes terrorize the Everglades and gobble up the native animals of FL and it gets to the press. Meanwhile, the many, MANY adorable pet kitties people allow to roam freely to "explore their territory" kill without needing to eat don't even get a little press. Guess it's okay as long as the critter is fluffy.
 

pitbulllady

Arachnoking
Old Timer
Joined
May 1, 2004
Messages
2,290
Perhaps instead of emphasizing cleanup, more attention should instead be turned to making sure these situations stop happening. Too many invasive species have been carelessly deposited around the globe in places they don't belong. To the general public the burmese pythons are frightening, but the truly terrifying issue at hand is not giant constrictors roaming the everglades and swallowing our children. It's the fact that we have witnessed the damage that invasive species continue to cause, and yet we continue to deposit animal and plant life where it does not belong. Invasive plants and insects have done untold damage far more extensive than any invasive vertebrate can cause. They've been permitted, even encouraged, to spread because of human doings, human mistakes and human ignorance.

The burmese pythons have spawned a partially-passed "python ban". Now it is illegal to cross U.S. state lines with many of the large constrictor species. How is this progress? People will still continue to irresponsibly breed and carry these species. They will still continue to release these species and others when they grow "too large", "too expensive", or just become "boring". The real attention should be paid to the vendors and careless breeders who sell these animals to unprepared homes and ignorant buyers. The phenomenon happens with large constrictors, venomous snakes, juvenile monitors, hatchling iguanas, etc. far too frequently. Perhaps a license for ownership should be required, including an examination of the facility and of proper caging and husbandry practices. Perhaps there should be a penalty for producing these animals in excess, or a license for breeding. I firmly believe that these species should be legal to own, BUT only once responsible ownership, proper finances, and the ability to commit long-term is proven. All invasive species are a product of human irresponsibility, and it's time to start educating ourselves and being aware of the consequences of our actions.
You ARE aware that DNA testing has ruled out the "released pets" scenario as the reason that the Burms are in the Everglades...RIGHT??? THAT is something cooked up by the AR's, along with the entire mythos surrounding a non-existent breed of dog that the AR supporters still insist is something out of the ordinary. Kook-Aid drinker, or Kool-Aid mixer...which are you going to be?

pitbulllady
 

LV-426

Arachnobaron
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
497
Yeah, no kidding. Big, "bad" snakes terrorize the Everglades and gobble up the native animals of FL and it gets to the press. Meanwhile, the many, MANY adorable pet kitties people allow to roam freely to "explore their territory" kill without needing to eat don't even get a little press. Guess it's okay as long as the critter is fluffy.
To echo what you say, when I was a kid I used to find ring necked snakes, see cardinals and orioles, numerous black racers around my old mans house. Nowadays I barely see any of those animals. Maybe cats are to blame, who knows but something is happening to which I never see these animals anymore.
 

Tarac

Arachnolord
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
618
You ARE aware that DNA testing has ruled out the "released pets" scenario as the reason that the Burms are in the Everglades...RIGHT??? THAT is something cooked up by the AR's, along with the entire mythos surrounding a non-existent breed of dog that the AR supporters still insist is something out of the ordinary. Kook-Aid drinker, or Kool-Aid mixer...which are you going to be?

pitbulllady
Really? Can you please provide a link to that study? I didn't realize anyone had genotyped all the assorted python lineages found in the pet trade and eliminated them as possible sources of the populations found in the Everglades.

Intentional release or not, if you had seen Miami after Andrew in person, i.e. the pet stores completely exploded all over US1 not to mention private residence, zoos, everything else, you would be very suspicious of the origins of many of Florida's exotics too. I did, I was there for clean up on Douglas Road just south of US1 in the heart of downtown Miami. It's a simple path of least resistance kind of thing. A lot of new invasive species appeared after that with the expected lag in sightings as the populations were establishing and growing. One detail that makes it difficult to refute the pet trade connection is the relative lack of invasive herps that are NOT sold in pet stores. Seems odd that only herps we like to keep as pets would decide to stow away in shipping pallets or what have you in their country of origin and escape here.

All genetic data that I am aware of to date only suggests a few blood lines of closely related animals which has no bearing on whether or not they were released, and there are more than one distinct line so there is evidence of at least several independent introductions.

I'm sorry but I won't buy that claim until I see the data myself- since you put it out there you must have this report yourself, RIGHT?... wouldn't want to spread unwarranted rumors like the AR now would we?

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/01/23/1115226109.full.pdf+html
 

LV-426

Arachnobaron
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Messages
497
You ARE aware that DNA testing has ruled out the "released pets" scenario as the reason that the Burms are in the Everglades...RIGHT??? THAT is something cooked up by the AR's, along with the entire mythos surrounding a non-existent breed of dog that the AR supporters still insist is something out of the ordinary. Kook-Aid drinker, or Kool-Aid mixer...which are you going to be?

pitbulllady
Conspriracy theory?
 
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