Mice as food for Tarantulas advice please?

[cold blood]

You could say the same thing about animals on factory farms, or pit bulls bred for dog fights, or breeding dogs on puppy mills. All were born and bred to serve that purpose. Does that mean the way they're treated is OK?
Having a cat isn't cruel, but I would never intentionally give my cat a live mouse to play with. Again, what happens in nature we can't do anything about. What happens in our homes we can.

Farm animals, I agree, they are legally supposed to be killed in the most humane manner possible, however, the methods they use are up for debate as to their level of humanity.

Pits and dogs bred to fight are NOT bred to die, they are bred to win...plus its an immoral act unto its self, and also very much NOT legal.

Puppies in mills are also NOT bred to die, that is not their purpose in life, and again, most consider this immoral, and in many places, its also not legal.

How can we quantify that a quick death via t venom is any more or less humane than being gassed? End result is the same, death in minutes, the only difference is that a gassed mouse is tossed in the garbage and one fed goes on to fulfill the food needs of another animal...I think its more humane to feed than it is to gas them and do nothing with the remains as is the norm for a euthanized animal.

As for the cat, I agree its definitely not cruel to own a cat, that was in fact my very point, and while you can contain your cat, to assume that a mouse or other rodent will never get in your house is a difficult assumption...and if it happened and you have cats, you'd never know the mouse got in unless you happened to be there. Rodents get in, and cats WILL kill them whether or not it was the owners intention.

I do see where you are coming from a bit, I just think that nature is naturally cruel in that predators NEED to kill to survive...domestication allows us to get around this with some pets, like dogs, but something like a t isn't a domesticated animal and killing smaller creatures is how it survives.

Much like those food cattle you spoke of, those mice would not exist if they were not required as either food or in the case of science, as something to experiment on. They are basically born to be fed.

 

[Akai]

For me really its the mess. pinkies are one thing but a large vertebrate bollus that's something else all together. lol An adult female A.genic of mine took 3 days to consume an adult mouse. The smell was vile. That's lightly putting it especially in an 85 degree T room. That was the first and last time with that experiment.

 

[Oumriel]

There's one glaring similarity...both are sold AND bred, specifically as feeders. No matter how you feel about a t eating one, fact is, that they are going to get eaten by something eventually...heck if you own a cat it will dispatch its fair share of mice...and do it just for the entertainment...is it cruel to own a cat? Is it more "humane" for it to be squeezed to death by a python.....batted around by a kitty, swallowed by a large fish, etc. End result is the same in all situations...dead mousie.

They are referred to in the LPS as "feeders", and in the end, that is their primary destination, how they meet their end is just semantics IMO.

The only reason I don't feed them is because a) my larger species are still young and b) it takes a t quite a long time to consume them, which leads to an awful smell by the time they are finishing up...and they can get a little messy.

My personal issue is that it looks and smells disgusting. I have no problem feeding snakes mice, rats or rabbits. Although it did always tick me off when a snake yacked up a two day digested meal. Aaaand now I smell dead things.... awesome. Lol

 

[ratluvr76]

I'm always amazed at people who go out of their way to further the case for "humanely" killing something. There is no truly humane way to kill. Death is brutal no matter the method.

 

[Poec54]

For me really its the mess. pinkies are one thing but a large vertebrate bollus that's something else all together. lol An adult female A.genic of mine took 3 days to consume an adult mouse. The smell was vile. That's lightly putting it especially in an 85 degree T room.

+1. That's why you always want to go small with mice, so that the spider finishes them in a half day or less. I occasionally give small mice to my adult Theraphosa when they're thin (new w/c spider). What's left with mine is a ball of bones. Like you, I learned the hard way with a full-size adult mouse (years ago). Vile is my word to describe too.

 

[Browncoat]

oh gods, dont go there. nature is...what it is. yes its cruel. but it is what it is.
i have 2 cats, they get raw food, some of our leftovers and ultimate raw. mice, birds and other critters that they catch. there is nothing wrong about it. its their nature to be a predator.
dog gets raw, our leftovers and she also hunts every once and while. what she catches she eats, never taken away anything from her.

Read my post, please. What happens in nature and what happens in our homes are different things. I'm going COMPLETELY on a tangent with the cat thing. It has nothing to do with feeding tarantulas mice. Yes, cats kill things OUT IN NATURE, we don't give them things to kill, but my point is that they're kind of an invasive species. They're a non-native predator that we subsidise by providing them with food and shelter, and they live in our settlements at ridiculously high densities compared to comparable wild predators. It's not good for the environment. That's just a fact.

---------- Post added 10-12-2014 at 05:16 PM ----------

Farm animals, I agree, they are legally supposed to be killed in the most humane manner possible, however, the methods they use are up for debate as to their level of humanity.

Pits and dogs bred to fight are NOT bred to die, they are bred to win...plus its an immoral act unto its self, and also very much NOT legal.

Puppies in mills are also NOT bred to die, that is not their purpose in life, and again, most consider this immoral, and in many places, its also not legal.

How can we quantify that a quick death via t venom is any more or less humane than being gassed? End result is the same, death in minutes, the only difference is that a gassed mouse is tossed in the garbage and one fed goes on to fulfill the food needs of another animal...I think its more humane to feed than it is to gas them and do nothing with the remains as is the norm for a euthanized animal.

As for the cat, I agree its definitely not cruel to own a cat, that was in fact my very point, and while you can contain your cat, to assume that a mouse or other rodent will never get in your house is a difficult assumption...and if it happened and you have cats, you'd never know the mouse got in unless you happened to be there. Rodents get in, and cats WILL kill them whether or not it was the owners intention.

I do see where you are coming from a bit, I just think that nature is naturally cruel in that predators NEED to kill to survive...domestication allows us to get around this with some pets, like dogs, but something like a t isn't a domesticated animal and killing smaller creatures is how it survives.

Much like those food cattle you spoke of, those mice would not exist if they were not required as either food or in the case of science, as something to experiment on. They are basically born to be fed.

Dude... That't not what I said. Saying, "Such and such is OK because and ONLY because the animals were bred for such and such purpose" is illogical, and I used other cases as an analogy. The legality, or how people feel about it, is not the relevant part, it's the logic and the act itself. If you want to "go there," there ARE places in the world where using live vertebrates as feeders is illegal, as it's considered inhumane (the U.K. comes to mind). Slaughterhouses are constantly coming up with new ways to treat and kill their animals more humanely, thanks to scientists like the aforementioned Dr. Grandin.
I was talking about how they kill feeder animals that are sold frozen/thawed, not about ones that are "tossed in the garbage." Maybe T venom is a humane way to die, but I doubt it.
Lastly, I acknowledged that their only purpose is to be fed to something, but that doesn't mean they have to be LIVE at the time, especially with something that will eat them when they're dead and would be fine without eating a vertebrate anyway (like a tarantula).
Our Ts will do fine on an invertebrate diet, or, if you're so inclined, pre-killed vertebrates. But the notion that they "need" live vertebrates is absurd.

---------- Post added 10-12-2014 at 05:19 PM ----------

I'm always amazed at people who go out of their way to further the case for "humanely" killing something. There is no truly humane way to kill. Death is brutal no matter the method.

Oh really? That makes no sense. Have you ever watched, for example, a loved one die slowly of cancer (I have, but that's neither here nor there), compared to, say, a dog dying in its owner's arms of lethal injection at the vet? One is very brutal and painful, the other is peaceful and fast.

---------- Post added 10-12-2014 at 05:21 PM ----------

I know it's cruel, I'm in the middle of switching over to a vegan diet for my T's, I'm trying to be super progressive.

If you have nothing to contribute, please don't troll.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

Browncoat, if you don't want to feed live mice to your spiders, then don't feed live mice to your spiders. Simple as that. However, faux outrage over live prey with a spine being eaten over live prey without a spine being eaten has no logical place in this argument. Unless you're feeding prekilled crickets or roaches to your spiders, you're causing just as much "torture" as someone who feeds a T a pinkie every few months.

 

[xkris]

Slaughterhouses are constantly coming up with new ways to treat and kill their animals more humanely, thanks to scientists like the aforementioned Dr. Grandin.

before i was only suspecting, but now i know. you're naive if you believe in these so called "new & improved" ways to treat and kill animals are "humane" . or any more "humane" than the last batch of perversity that scientists come up with on farm factories and slaughterhouses. the way you think is very politically correct but not realistic. you should see them when the cameras are off. they don't wear spotless white coats then, don't smile and are not so nice like you see on promo films/visits/guided tours. i know because i go there to get meat and bones for dog&cats. (if your horrified & outraged that i "support this" and go there....would it really be any different if i were to go to the supermarket to get it?)

last time farm animals had it good was when they lived on a farm, farmer had a few of them, depended on them so he took good care of them. this includes them having names, daily walk to graze and to bathe in creek or lake. that's how my grandparents treated their animals.

all death is brutal, human is infinitely more cruel than nature, simply because he is prone to justify his cruelty and thinks he's humane.

...and for 1 of these dogs who dies in owners arms, there are 1001 who die squeezed tightly in a little box filled to the top with dogs who are then gassed - this is also considered humane.... or are electrocuted - also humane, or any other way we kill dogs- all of them very humane:sarcasm:

all death is brutal. if you wanna know if this 1st dog died "peacefully & humanly" you should ask him and not the owner.

---------- Post added 10-13-2014 at 11:26 AM ----------

oh and by the way....i love you guys! <3:biggrin:
haven't had so much fun with quality arguments since high school.
(im a girl, so no need to feel threatened with my expression of love, lol.)

 

[vespers]

If you have nothing to contribute, please don't troll.

He's been contributing in this thread, if you've read it in its entirety. Making a joke doesn't always mean "trolling". Don't make troll accustations simply because other posters don't agree with/support your position.

That said:

Oh yeahhhh, the big P. crassipies smash even the biggest cane toads, a big tarantulas true strength should never be underestimated, a mouse doesn't stand a chance if a big cane toad can't win.

I have some difficulty buying into this. I'd have to see footage or pics of this happening. It's unlikely that even the largest Theraphosa could "smash" the biggest 5+ pound, 12+ inch cane toads. Even without factoring in the toxins, those toads are simply juggernauts among animals of similar size. Average sized or juvenile toads, seem more realistic.

 

[Browncoat]

Browncoat, if you don't want to feed live mice to your spiders, then don't feed live mice to your spiders. Simple as that. However, faux outrage over live prey with a spine being eaten over live prey without a spine being eaten has no logical place in this argument. Unless you're feeding prekilled crickets or roaches to your spiders, you're causing just as much "torture" as someone who feeds a T a pinkie every few months.

There's a reason at universities (like the one I'm studying at) and in countries with more well thought-out animal cruelty laws, that vertebrates are covered by animal use protocols, and invertebrates (with the exception of cephalopods) are not. It's not arbitrary. It's based on science. Maybe, one day, if we demonstrate that insects can suffer (which I doubt will happen, based on what I know about their physiology), I'll start feeding pre-killed insects. Until then, here's the logic in my argument.

---------- Post added 10-13-2014 at 09:38 AM ----------

As with everything else posted about this is bad and that is bad, two wrongs don't make a right, guys. At least slaughterhouses *ostensibly* make an effort.

*sigh*

I see I'm going to get about as far here as trying to convince a U.S. Republican that Obama was born in the U.S. I give up.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

There's a reason at universities (like the one I'm studying at) and in countries with more well thought-out animal cruelty laws, that vertebrates are covered by animal use protocols, and invertebrates (with the exception of cephalopods) are not. It's not arbitrary. It's based on science. Maybe, one day, if we demonstrate that insects can suffer (which I doubt will happen, based on what I know about their physiology), I'll start feeding pre-killed insects. Until then, here's the logic in my argument.

While I've made the argument arachnids and most other inverts lack a limbic system and, hence, emotional response, the fact remains that they *will* attempt to remove themselves from a painful situation. Next time you feed a T, watch the cricket and see how it attempts to get out of the fangs before succumbing. What you and these other countries fail to understand is that "cute and fuzzy" animals aren't any better than those lacking a spine. You're trying to rationalize that it's all good killing a cricket cause their brains are alien compared to yours - but that cute furry mouse has a spine and is a fellow mammal, so somehow they are "worth" more to you.

Life is life, spine or not. Death is death, exoskeleton or not. Save the faux outrage for PETA.

 

[jigalojey]

Never seen a 12 inch cane toad in my life, biggest I have seen are around 7 inches stretched and a hungry large tarantula have and will take one that size out.

 

[vespers]

Never seen a 12 inch cane toad in my life, biggest I have seen are around 7 inches stretched and a hungry large tarantula have and will take one that size out.

Seven inches stretched out? I've seen them significantly larger than that in person. Hell, I just saw a few at Repticon last month that were easily that size or more snout to vent. The largest cane toad on record was supposedly reported at 15 inches in length and exceeding 5 lbs. No spider is going to "smash" that (if I'm supposed to take the use of the word "smash" in a "Hulk Smash" type of context.)

 

[Browncoat]

While I've made the argument arachnids and most other inverts lack a limbic system and, hence, emotional response, the fact remains that they *will* attempt to remove themselves from a painful situation. Next time you feed a T, watch the cricket and see how it attempts to get out of the fangs before succumbing. What you and these other countries fail to understand is that "cute and fuzzy" animals aren't any better than those lacking a spine. You're trying to rationalize that it's all good killing a cricket cause their brains are alien compared to yours - but that cute furry mouse has a spine and is a fellow mammal, so somehow they are "worth" more to you.

Life is life, spine or not. Death is death, exoskeleton or not. Save the faux outrage for PETA.

Alrighty then. I suppose I should pre-kill all my tarantula's food according to this line of thinking, then. But if what I remember about insect physiology isn't flawed, the "escape response" is entirely autonomic. Just because it appears complex doesn't necessarily mean it's "conscious." And nociception ("pain reception") is a different thing entirely.
I can't make ethical decisions for you. The only person who can do that is you. I will give creedence to the argument that death by tarantula venom is fairly humane, as it appears to have analgesic properties. I still think the gas chamber in this case is *better*, but this is for the individual keeper to decide, I suppose.

---------- Post added 10-13-2014 at 12:26 PM ----------

I'd also like to apologise if I offended anyone with that "birther" joke. It was meant to be a joke, which I suppose is what jigalojey was doing when I chastised him for "trolling."

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

You didn't even "remember" crickets had a brain. Forgive me if I give more weight to the texts and papers I've read than to the words of a university student.

It *is* up to the individual keeper to decide. If you find it immoral, fine. Don't do it. But don't pretend to be outraged or judge others because people don't have the same opinion as you.

 

[Drache]

Bear with me please, while I add to the pain-and brain debate with the story of a man I met who had his leg ripped off in a motorcycle accident. He said he didn't feel it at all - fell over though when he went to check on his girlfriend. He was sure he was going to die, once he realized one of his legs was gone, but he felt no pain and remained fully conscious. I'm glad he lived to tell me his story. As it turned out, a lady found his leg on the side of the road, and they were able to re-attach it.
What I learned from that is that apparently pain is not an immediate and necessary effect of trauma. I also believe from my personal experience in martial arts, that at the moment of fighting, we don't feel much pain.
This is just my terrified-of-pain human experience I'm talking about. Yes there is pain, but I kind of come to think that it probably doesn't happen while we're being eaten - more likely after, when we've dealt with the predator and are tending our wounds. I find it hard to believe that we're so special that the mechanism at work here is only bestowed upon humans.
Note - I am not claiming any expertise, just opining here.

As to the rodent part of the debate - I have chosen not to feed live rodents to any of my other herps, although I feed them live roaches. My rodent-eating herps get frozen/thawed. I don't see good reason to give my captive bred animals that nature experience, and I don't need the hassle of treating bite wounds. I do now wonder whether how the prey gets killed makes any difference in terms of the kinds of hormones they might end up generating at that moment.

 

[Poec54]

What I learned from that is that apparently pain is not an immediate and necessary effect of trauma. I also believe from my personal experience in martial arts, that at the moment of fighting, we don't feel much pain.

Put your hand on a red hot burner on your stove and tell us if you feel anything.

 

[ratluvr76]

Alrighty then. I suppose I should pre-kill all my tarantula's food according to this line of thinking, then. But if what I remember about insect physiology isn't flawed, the "escape response" is entirely autonomic. Just because it appears complex doesn't necessarily mean it's "conscious." And nociception ("pain reception") is a different thing entirely.
I can't make ethical decisions for you. The only person who can do that is you. I will give creedence to the argument that death by tarantula venom is fairly humane, as it appears to have analgesic properties. I still think the gas chamber in this case is *better*, but this is for the individual keeper to decide, I suppose.

Where do you get the idea that a gas chamber is humane? Seriously? I mean, I guess if slowly dieing of asphyxiation from the chemicals filling the lungs as opposed to the oxygen carbon based life forms require...? I guess all the people that die d in the gas chambers in aushwitz (spelling?) and other such earthbound hells were filled joy. The convulsions were pleasant then? animals that die in gas chambers suffer. Maybe less than other modes of death but trauma is trauma.

 

[Biollantefan54]

What does all this matter anyways? They are going to end up dying one way or the other and it isn't going to matter what way they died anyways. (I am talking about feeder animals).

 

[Drache]

Put your hand on a red hot burner on your stove and tell us if you feel anything.

I'll leave that one to you, because I believe that one's body is quicker to punish one when one is being an idiot than when one got surprised by trauma.
I have no clue about how that happens, but apparently it's part of a sympathetic nervous system quirk that is also responsible for fighters keeping going beyond reason.