Mating with sub-adults

[Murnau]

Hey hey,

I often enough read some guys explaining they pair their females at sub-adult level or waiting they hit a certain size for. Personnally, I always wait that my females are matures for pairing them with males.
On my point of view, that could be a risk for the female if the male is bigger than her, or the eggsac would be less fertile maybe. In the wild, I suppose some sub-adult females mating but the risk exist too, so, is it a good thing to do that in breeding?

What's your opinion on it or your experiences ?

 

[Pmurinushmacla]

I have no experience pairing Ts, but examples of the male eating the female are very, very rare. The one who is in danger in the mating process 99% of the time is the male. Plus, even subadult females are usually bigger than mature males.

 

[Wolfram1]

The problem is that with many Theraphosidae the transition to maturity, at least for females is not entirely clear. With many insects they mature at specific instars but as far as i am aware this is not the case with Theraphosidae, at least most of them. As such it is very hard to determine the exact molt that indicates maturity and often a sub-adult individual is just classified as such based on its size and may have already reached sexual maturity. A sure sign of a mature specimen is a fully sclerotised spermathecae, however there is no real way to tell the difference other than experience or experimentation when this is the case. there are also some species that lack spermathecae entirely.

It may also be that the transition is fluid, i am not sure how it works exactly in an evolutionary context.

I do think there is no real point in rushing things and often it is most likely safer to postpone any pairings until there is no doubt the individual is mature.

 

[Tentacle Toast]

Probably best to wait until full maturity, I can't see any advantage to pairing her off early.
Plus the legal ramifications...you know how hard it is to find a place that's not within a mile of a school or playground? And if you DO find a place, they mail everyone in the neighborhood flyers with your picture on it, & it's really hard to make new friends. Best to just satisfy those curiosity with Japanese comic books, friend. They seem to have something for everyone (including the spider grooming community).

 

[Murnau]

I have no experience pairing Ts, but examples of the male eating the female are very, very rare. The one who is in danger in the mating process 99% of the time is the male. Plus, even subadult females are usually bigger than mature males.

When both of them are adults, the male is almost the only one in danger, I'm totally agree with you.
I've watched some videos with no adult females. I can remember one in particular, this video shown a mating of Ceratogyrus (maybe marshalli or darlingi, i don't remember) with a large size difference, the male was clearly bigger than the female. After a short moment, the male was too excited and take a fight with the female. Whatever, I'll continue to pair adult specimens only.

I

 

[Murnau]

The problem is that with many Theraphosidae the transition to maturity, at least for females is not entirely clear. With many insects they mature at specific instars but as far as i am aware this is not the case with Theraphosidae, at least most of them.

I share your opinion. As you said the adult instar isn't clear, so it's hard sometimes to determine if a female is ready for pairing or not, only the size can be a good sign to help the keeper. Personally I examine molts for being sure before anything else.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

In the wild, I suppose some sub-adult females mating but the risk exist too, so, is it a good thing to do that in breeding?

I've only seen Aphonopelma hentzi mate in the wild and based on my own observations with this one species, the males know which females are ready for mating and which are not. A few years ago, I was at the right place at the right time in an area with a huge population of A. hentzi consisting of males, females, and immatures during the beginning of the mating season. The males were wandering around everywhere and they were able to pick up on the presence of the mature females, and their location, then took the shortest path to get to them ignoring all other burrows in their path. I vividly recall following one male who stopped at a burrow to investigate the occupant, didn't find a receptive female, then turned completely around and walked straight to a female that was out of its burrow presumably waiting for prey. The male snuck up on that female, startled her, they wrestled for a while, but he was able to get the upper hand and they copulated. It was perhaps the most fascinating experience I have had with tarantulas because it was very obvious male tarantulas know exactly what females to mate with and where they are located. During the time I was at that location, I witnessed several males mate with different females and it occurred to me that in the wild, the males have much more space to run away from the females than they do in captivity. Even the couple that wrestled were doing so in a space of a few square feet on level ground. I'm sure if that happened in captivity, the female would have been the one getting the upper hand and she would have killed that dude. LOL

I can't say that male tarantulas will never attempt to mate with immature females in the wild, but based on the one experience I just described, and several more observations of wild A. hentzi mating, I would predict they wouldn't or that it would be extremely rare. The observations I have made also lead me to think that the only sure way to know if your female tarantula is mature is to introduce it to a recently matured male. If they start their courtship communication, then you know the female is mature. If they don't, then the results would be inconclusive because you won't know for sure if is is due to environmental conditions or female immaturity.

 

[Reezelbeezelbug]

I had 3 Cyriocosmus ritae sac mates, one molted to a mature male. The other two had confirmed female with earlier molts but I hadn't gotten their molts at that time to confirm darkened spermatheca. Both females started drumming around him so I paired both with him and both laid sacs after one pairing each. I pulled the sacs at around 30 days but they never progressed past eggs in the incubator.

It was interesting that the females were drumming, so I figured they were mature enough. I'm not sure if the eggs didn't develop because they were not mature, or because he was their brother, or if he was a dud, or I botched incubation. Both females are still alive and well, have since molted and the spermatheca are darkened. Might be a nature thing where they were timed not to mature until their bother had died.

If they were immature, I guess they didn't get harmed by it, but their drumming is what gets me wondering what really happened.

 

[darkness975]

Pheromones are likely also at play. Mature females likely release certain pheromones in their silk and around their lairs that the MMs can pick up on. It's like this with many invertebrates.

 

[Murnau]

AphonopelmaTX : It's a really good observation, thanks for sharing it. So It would be interesting to know if this kind of comportement is the own of all T species or only some of them.

I've already had the chance to observe some T in the wild too but unfortunately not in a mating research. Maybe the next time ! I'm looking to go back (I think in Malaysia again) to a foreign country for herping, so I wish to observe something similar.

I'm totally agree with you about the courtship communication, if the female isn't receptive, it's useless to try to do anything with. I've seen some succeeded matings with sub F but for all the reasons we seem sharing here, I don't think that's the best way to manage a good mating, the final result is too random.

 

[Wolfram1]

My first male Lasiodora parahybana never drummed or reacted to the females in any way. I gave him a few months before trying again and he had definitely built sperm webs but still nothing. I had just looked at the two spiders not move for 5 minutes straight and went away to get myself a glass of water in anticipation of a long wait and he was eaten in the 30 seconds i was away....my mistake. So there are also some unresponsive males, this might make it harder to predict....

 

[Murnau]

I'm sorry for you, as you said it's hard to predict, unfortunately.

Your anecdote make me remember a YT video of a mating with this species, both of them were totally inert for a long time when the female jumped suddenly to the male and killed him..

 

[Wolfram1]

I'm sorry for you, as you said it's hard to predict, unfortunately.

Your anecdote make me remember a YT video of a mating with this species, both of them were totally inert for a long time when the female jumped suddenly to the male and killed him..

yea, they do that, when i tried to pair my other female for a second time, she did jump at the male after drumming a little to lure him in, luckily she missed and i saved him ( i even have a video of it) and as it turned out the first time was successful anyway. I don't think i will try to pair any females twice in the future.

edit: sorry for going off topic

 

[Murnau]

yea, they do that, when i tried to pair my other female for a second time, she did jump at the male after drumming a little to lure him in, luckily she missed and i saved him ( i even have a video of it) and as it turned out the first time was successful anyway. I don't think i will try to pair any females twice in the future.

edit: sorry for going off topic

I've never mated L.parahybana but each time I read a topic or speak with someone else about pairing them, the agressive behaviour from the female to the male is the main topic the most of the time. The species is known for that, so we can say that it's not a legend hehe....

No prob for the off topic, all informations are welcome