Mandatory dog and cat spay/neuter in Palm Beach

[Scott C.]

....I feel like a broken record!

Well I'll dance to the skip.


Bugman, you can view me however you'd like from your feel good position.... I think it's a bit ironic to bring selfishness up though when you're talking about infringing on my rights to ease your feelings....er.... I mean the animal's feelings

 

[Texas Blonde]

Having worked in the county Animal Control "Shelter" I support this ordinance. I think they did a good thing, if only by awakening the public to the problem. So many of the dogs and cats that are killed every day in shelters would not be their if pet owners responsibly spayed and neutered their pets. If you are not planning on breeding the dog, then why not? Accidents happen, and unfortunately many of the dogs/cats that result from those accidents end up homeless. Its not even that expensive to buy an unaltered tag, and it should be worth it for professional breeders.

The fact is, there is a problem. Apparently its easy for alot of people to ignore it, but turning a blind eye never solved anything. At least these people are trying to make the first step.

 

[Scott C.]

So what happens when Ms. Zwicker decides that she still can't handle the reality of our tinkering? Make some more rules? Maybe limit who is even allowed to have a pet?

 

[mindlessvw]

Aside from the emotional side of this argument, lets look at the tax dollars that have to go into animal control departments to regulate all the strays. That right there should be incentive to try to put a leash (no pun intended on the breeding of unwanted dogs...Of course this will continue to happen but think about the financial difference that curbing some of this could make.

 

[Scott C.]

the financial difference that curbing some of this could make.

eaten immediately by the new cost of enforcing such a fools errand I'd think.

 

[mindlessvw]

Yes, there would be initial costs just like any new program or law that has to be enforced...

 

[Brian S]

Second, do you know what happens to the animals after they are PTS ?(put to sleep)

There bodies must be disposed of properly. How on earth do you dispose of hundreds of animals before they start to decompose? They need to be cremated or sent to labs where some are used for dissection.

Not neccessarily! Those decomposing bodies would make great fertilizer for fields!

It also takes more of the drugs used to put the animal to sleep, and more workers to do it, and those drugs aint cheap either and you have to pay the workers extra!

Not the drugs I'm thinking of. Ever hear of a "lead pill"?

It would cost more to PTS all the animals than to feed/care for each one

.
Which is why the lead pill method is much better!

We should clean up our mess.... for our sake, because that's what it's really about.

At least in my area, the cats and dogs have no predators, so there is an over abundance of them.

Hey maybe we could send you all some MO coyotes up there to New York! That would start thinning them out!

 

[Galadriel]

Typical cost of spay, mandatory by shelters- $150
Required vaccines and rabies shot- $100 +
Microchip, which most shelters now do- $50
Add in a week's worth of food, blankets, towels, leashes, shelter worker's pay, kennel maintenance, and other random expenses that it takes to run a shelter every day, nevermind any emergency care the animal may need, and you're looking at a MINIMUM cost of $500 PER DOG for upkeep.

10 CC injection of sodium pen....about $8.

There aren't enough responsible owners to the number of escaped and abandoned animals and "ooops" litters. You isolate a domestic animal in a shelter environment, and you make an unstable, and often VERY human aggressive dog. It's MORE humane to euthanize them than to force them to live suffering, chasing invisible demons that WE created.

 

[pitbulllady]

Think that there is an overabundance of "homeless" animals in US shelters? Think again: http://enews.tufts.edu/stories/020603FillingEmptyPounds.htm

According to the USDA, American animal shelters and humane societies IMPORTED 300,000-and no, I didn't put too many zeros-into the US from foreign countries, most of these puppies, to meet the demand for adoptable animals. Of course, when you include among those "homeless" animals euthanized each year the aged, sick pets brought in by owners who can't afford euthanasia by a vet, the numbers of dogs unfortunate enough to have been born a "Pit Bull" or a "wolf hybrid" or other "undesirable" in BSL areas, animals(including wild animals) picked up that have been injured by cars or suffer from other trauma that have little chance of recovery, and disregard the fact that feral cats account for well over half of the numbers of euthanized animals in shelters, those statistics look pretty bad.

On the health effects of early ovohysterectomies/castration(and most spay/neuter laws require the surgery by the time a puppy or kitten is NO MORE than four months of age, which for a large breed, is very young), check out this site: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I've heard the garbage that the shelters are full of purebreds long enough to make me puke, seriously. I've volunteered in two area shelters, and VERIFIABLE purebred dogs are a small minority, and most are there because they've bitten someone, or nowadays, because their owners have been deployed in the military. By far, mongrel dogs, random-bred dogs that were NOT the products of intentional breedings, but rather the result of owners who could care less letting their dogs roam free, were the majority. That didn't keep the shelter staff from labeling them as "purebreds", though, in the hopes that this would increase their chances of being adopted, and it usually worked. It also inflates the numbers of "purebred" animals winding up in shelters enormously.

Like it or not, sheeple, my animals ARE my property, and that includes all their body parts, genitalia included! If I choose to keep my dogs' gonads intact, as nature intended, that's none of the government's business! Just check out the most recent threads here in the "NSSW" section, and count how many are about government's attempts to chip away at our abilities to keep, and breed, the animals of our choosing, or indeed, ANY animals at all, and this is just the tiny, itty-bitty tip of the iceberg, what you see here. Most of you are not even aware of the various and often-successful attempts by Big Brother to eliminate all animal ownership, period, and willingly and happily hand over your pets to the government, trusting them to know what's best. Maybe instead of going, "Oh, there's that crazy paranoid Pitbulllady telling us how the government is taking away our animals again", you should check out this Yahoo group(yes, you will have to join, but it can be very eye-opening for those of you who still do not believe that there is a powerful movement to eliminate all animal/human interaction): http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/pet-law/
and if any of you get a chance, pick up a copy of Nathan Winograd's Redemption: The No-Kill Solution.

I'll let y'all ponder on the words of one of the biggest promoters of mandatory spay/neuter, the Humane Society of the US's CEO, Wayne Pacelle, to get a good "feel" for what this whole thing is REALLY about:

"We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding. . One generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding." Wayne Pacelle, Senior VP of Humane Society of the US, formerly of Friends of Animals and Fund for Animals, Animal People, May, 1993

Make sure you pay close attention to that "one generation and out" line.

pitbulllady

 

[vvx]

I think most of what I would say has been covered, but did want to point out one thing.

^ That logic is pretty dramatically flawed because it assumes that all breeding is intentional, that all dogs in shelters are the result of an intentional breeding and are being surrendered as unsold puppies, and that people take into account the fact that they might not be able to place the dogs that they breed.

Let's break down that down.

1) "Assumes that all breeding is intentional."

Just because most people are irresponsible and allow their pets to breed and or intentionally breed

I specifically addressed that in "allow their pets to breed" followed by "and or intentionally breeding." My sentence doesn't even make sense unless you include unintentional breeding...

2) "and that people take into account the fact that they might not be able to place the dogs that they breed."

Okay, nothing as obvious as #1 but I'll stand by my argument. Yes, people *plan* on placing their pets when they breed them, but there is a realization at some level among some percentage of the people doing it that they may not be able to do it. Worst case scenario is often "it'll to into a shelter until adopted", and is a consideration for some. I still believe if you killed them immediately when surrendered to shelter that this would discourage people. Yes, some are still going to irresponsibily breed pets they can't support however some won't, and you reduce the number at any rate. (And those that currently breed w/out capability of support will likely continue to do it regardless of law.)

I do think that spay/neuter programs are good and have resulted in a reduction in strays, however I do not think they need to be mandatory to be successful, or that mandatory rules have accounted for a significant percentage of the reduction.

 

[jenniferinny]

I have a problem with all laws like this and I work with a cat rescue and the local shelter. I've been working with shelters for 9 years now..
Do some purebred, healthy, well adjusted dogs get put to sleep in shelters? They sure do. Dogs I've personally euthanized at work have included a purebred, 8 month old rough coat St Bernard that was surrendered when the family moved to an apartment. I've euthanized a purebred 9 month of Great Dane surrendered because it got "too big".
I've killed scores of kittens and puppies. Some because they were simply too young to be adopted out and we didn't have the available resources to keep them 2 more weeks waiting for them to be old enough. Guess what, the people who had the 'oops' litter 9 out of 10 times didn't care enough to keep them two more weeks to prevent us having to kill them. Of course they didn't care. They keep their dog on a tie out in their front yard and let it get screwed by any dog that goes by. Then they let it raise it's puppies in the dirt in the front yard till they start getting into stuff. Then, they bring em to us to kill..
Right now, where I live is no kill for adoptable dogs but we still kill plenty of cats. Even so, we transport in animals from Kentucky and Ohio where MOST dogs and cats surrendered will be euthanized.
Note to pitbull lady, the reason why that number imported from other countries by rescues is so high is because a lot of scummy breeders will claim they are rescues when importing to avoid paying duty on them. The real number of imports done by shelters is much lower and only done by shelters in specific areas that have actually fixed their overpopulation problems.
When I worked in Florida, we never took dogs from even other areas, much less other countries. We had plenty ourselves! Even working with other rescues in our area, I killed 30 cats a day, most of them friendly adults and kittens. Tell you what, that's the kind of work that haunts you for life.
Where I live now, most of the dogs in our rescues and other shelters are from other states and Canada. Why? This area started fixing everything adopted from the shelters a long time ago and individuals watch the free ads and take any puppies and kittens offered to ensure they are altered before they are adopted out..
Our area back in Florida had a high population of people. But, if just three people a day let their dogs had oops litters, that could mean as many as 30 pups surrendered a day.
In this area, just requiring that all the shelters and rescues send everything out altered gradually fixed the problem. In Florida and many other areas of the south, the animal overpopulation problem is still horrific and most of even the adoptable animals are euthanized. That still doesn't mean blanket legislation is the way to go. What would work is requiring non purebred animals be altered before they can change hands. Those free ads with puppies and kittens are where most of the problem people get their pets. I would much rather those puppies and kittens go through the shelter system and get altered before finding a home or euthanized if there is no home willing to pay an adoption fee. Just putting a restriction on the free ads and requiring all shelters and rescues to adopt out altered animals would fix the problem. Another thing I've seen work is requiring people that drop off litters to allow the mom dog or cat to be fixed. Otherwise a fee for the litter will be assessed. That would actually work without stepping on responsible breeders toes..

 

[Galadriel]

In recent months, several cities have hosted "free spay and neuter your pit bull" months. The response has been overwhelming! Let's face it, people are idiots. They get a dog or cat and can't afford the basic care for them, and YES, I include speutering in basic care. When that service is offered, a lot of people take advantage of it. Bottom line: It's cheaper to spay a dog than it is to try to raise and re-home her 4-16 puppies (depending on breed).

Pets are property and the gov't isn't SUPPOSED to be able to tell you what you can do with your property. There are, of course, limits. If you haven't taken care of your car and you can't pass emission, you don't get to drive your car. If you don't take care of your home and it falls into ruin, you can't live there anymore. If you abuse or severely neglect your pets, you don't get to keep them. There are a few places across the US where back yard breeding is, in fact, illegal. Gwinnette County, GA, for instance. You may not breed your pets unless you are a licensed breeder. It's not enforceable. Neighbors have to be relied upon to report it, and they just don't. Most people don't know there is such a law, and who the hell calls to police or animal control because they guy that lives behind them just has a littler of puppies?!

YES, the pet population is out of control, there are almost as many reasons for it as there are pets.

Sorry. I have a ton of thoughts on this issue and I'm not sure I can get them all together and make sense.

I know I do my part. My dog is spayed, I don't buy from back yard breeders. I am not a breeder nor do I have a desire to become one, and I will NEVER be one of those people who says "OOOPS! She got out and now we're having puppies."

 

[mindlessvw]

I wouldn't be too quick to state animals are property since it is a felony in most states to be cruel to them. The government regulates how people feed, shelter, and maintain a pet.

 

[Galadriel]

Sorry mindless, but they ARE property in the eyes of the law. As I said, it's just like your home or car being your property. You fail to maintain them, and the gov't can take them from you, too. Pets are only regulated to extreme circumstances. You don't have to give your dogs a high quality diet, you only have to keep them from starving to death. You don't have to let them sleep in your bed, you only have to keep them out of elements that can kill them. They aren't children, and we are not required to treat them as such.

Look up your state laws on domestic animals. You'll find them referred to as property.

 

[RoachGirlRen]

I think it would be interesting to see the impact of a law where, if your intact dog or cat is picked up straying, it is spayed/neutered, vaccinated, and held. And you are legally required to pay the cost of the vetting and the boarding fee for the time your dog/cat was in the shelter. No punishing or restricting responsible pet owners, and it'll pay for itself. I said it before and I'll say it again: the kind of people that aimlesly breed or don't care to keep their un-neutered pet properly contained really don't care about dogs/cats dying in shelters. Shelters used to be 100% KILL. One week and you're dead. Period. And it sure didn't deter people back then. But if this topic shows anything, it's that people really care about money and property. So if they hear that your property is going to be altered AND you'll have to pay a hefty fee, they might listen up.
That's just my musing for the night.

 

[halfwaynowhere]

I was reading an article in the paper today, and while this doesn't pertain to the exact same area as this thread is about, it still seems pertinant. Last year, the Los Angeles County animal control took in 85,975 animals. They euthanized 16,989 dogs, 26,384 cats, and 9,429 other animals. That's over 61% of the animals they took in. which means that only 39% of those animals ever found homes.
I'm not saying that mandatory spay/neuter is the best answer. But something has to be done to fix this overpopulation problem.

 

[vvx]

I think it would be interesting to see the impact of a law where, if your intact dog or cat is picked up straying, it is spayed/neutered, vaccinated, and held.

I'd still rather kill them but if the shelter can fund this I'd support it. (Primarily because I can envision a lot of those stray pets getting picked up, then spayed/neutered, and never picked up in which case shelter would probably end up having to kill the pet anyway after spending their money on neuter/spay.)

 

[RoachGirlRen]

While we'd have to agree to disagree on the whole "kill 'em all" philosophy, I'd say snip dogs/cats with verifiable ID tags immediately, and ones without, hold for say a week to see if anyone comes looking for them before snipping (people tend to come looking for dogs unless they deliberately got rid of them, not so much for cats) and placing for adoption, or depending on the shelter, PTS. Oh, and if the pet has a verifiable ID tag but the owner doesn't want the animal back, I say why not a manditory legally-enforced surrender fee that covers the cost of the spay/neuter/vac as well as a week of boarding? That way no one gets sneaky and says "Ah, I'll get out of the fee by just refusing to come get my animal" (which people did a'plenty at the vet office I worked at).

And here's another idea - all of the animal welfare/rights organizations like PETA and HSUS, which have a massive multi-million dollar funding bases, that are pushing for manditory spay/neuter? How about they pick up the tab for these new manditory programs instead of the city or the state? Or at least, since the city and state already pay for municipal animal control, they pay for all of the surgeries of the animals in animal control? They do mobile spay/neuter clinics allready and have enough money to send out millions of obnoxious freaking mailings with free writing pads and note cards and key chains, so why not redirect some funding and put the money where the mouth is, eh?

Ah. Can you tell I'm surly this morning?

 

[Scott C.]

I think it would be interesting to see the impact of a law where, if your intact dog or cat is picked up straying, it is spayed/neutered, vaccinated, and held. And you are legally required to pay the cost of the vetting and the boarding fee for the time your dog/cat was in the shelter.......

I'd be all for that... Of course I'd bet the shelter would still be picking up the tab most of the time. Sucks that it leaves no room for accidents, but if your pets goodies are important to you, you have the ability to have them kept intact.

I'm not a fan of the "kill 'em all" deal either, but if there really is a problem with over population, to the point of wasteful unfair regulations being implemented.... well, perhaps people should resist being neutered by a pc society and do what needs to be done.

 

[Galadriel]

Don't even touch on the animal rights groups like PETA. Their entire agenda is based on ERADICATING animal ownership. PETA killed over 14,000 adoptable pets that they pulled out of shelters last year, after giving said shelters the impression they had homes for those animals.

Shelters do have a spay/neuter policy. If an animal isn't altered, they won't alter them until an adoption takes place. You fill out the paperwork, pay your money, and pick up your new pet once the surgery is done.

Altering traceable pets wouldn't make people more responsible. If your dog is picked up at large too many times, you can't get them back until you can properly contain them and pay your fine. Those people can't be bothered with it. They leave the dogs in the shelter and just go get a new one. That happens to be EXACTLY how we got our dog. Guy didn't want to fix his fence and pay to pick her back up from the shelter, so he let them keep her and just got another dog.